Global Peak (Part 11.0 up 05/29/09).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Our internal maps seem to be different. I've got pretty much all of Ohio locked up in the FedGov as a bread basket, kind of with Cincinnati, Dayton, and Toledo being heavily garrisonned and forming a "line" with the FSU on the other side, along with the northern most tip of Kentucky along the Ohio River being tenuously held. I assumed Detroit, a bit further north, was a loyal city as well.

Of course, my segment and the one I have pending approval from Marina are deliberately not dated.

I've got the FedGov / FSU (kentucky in paticular) holding a line roughly from Indianapolis to Cincinnatti to Columbus then to Parkersburg (and thence on to Morgantown and into Maryland). This would mean control of the Ohio from Parkersburg north and then really iffy control by either side onwards to Cincinnatti (FSU meaning God's Will party in control but not really ocntesting passage). Anyway that is the situation I had in my background materials but I expect that any FedGov offensive designed to finally relieve St Louis (which should still be under seige IIRC) would probably try to gain total control of the Ohio as a precursor.

So anyway FedGov holding the entire Ohio R at least as far as Cinncy certianly makes sense by spring '48. Obviously if i'm just completely off base then I'm off base and many apologies to Marina since this is her playpen that I just got the chance to romp around in.

It's broadly true. Gary is the tip of a massive fucking bulge in the FSU controlled territory involving chunks of Indiana and Illinois; if the FedGov had functional armoured forces in the east, they could cut it off easily, and they actually have cut it off several times, but it's held out long enough for counteroffensives to rescue the fortress before it fell. Conversely, St. Louis has been in the same position, meaning constant seesaw fighting throughout the whole area which has more or less wrecked Illinois and Indiana.

[Adrian Laguna]

[I meant for the Front Nataional to be literally controlling the country. Since Germany and Italy gave up their nuclear reactors, their power generation is all located in French territory, which means that the French completely control Germany and Italy as subject states (as well as the low countries, but for sea level rise reasons). That, along with occupied Britain, forms the territorial extant of Fascist France.

What about Spain and Portugal, how do they fit in this? Also, why did France even bother occupying Britain? The place is almost completely worthless.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

[I meant for the Front Nataional to be literally controlling the country. Since Germany and Italy gave up their nuclear reactors, their power generation is all located in French territory, which means that the French completely control Germany and Italy as subject states (as well as the low countries, but for sea level rise reasons). That, along with occupied Britain, forms the territorial extant of Fascist France.

What about Spain and Portugal, how do they fit in this? Also, why did France even bother occupying Britain? The place is almost completely worthless.

Britain has a huge amount of legacy industry, and decent enough low-grade early-industrial raw materials left; it isn't completely played out, and it used to have the best mineral resources in the world. That and to seize the Royal Navy and generally eliminate for good a rival in Europe.

Spain and Portugal are independence from France and retain some supernational institutions, just like the Scandinavian Union, basically two detached remnant chunks of the EU. I'm still working out some of the details in central Europe.

[Warsie]

In turn this meant that with most bases already in the south and most members already inclined to support the states in the viewpoint that FedGov had voided the US constiution they immediately gained enough fighting power to be relevant but that firepower was still dispersed amongst the states so the FSU serves essentially as almost a NATO rather than an actual government. It is a mean of negotiating joint military action for joint self-defense.

whoa...most of the bases are in the South in this future? Were they divided up by where the soldiers came from, as in people who came from tennessee were sent to join the tennessee military, was it divided without a slight care to the "homes" of the troops, or did the troops get a choice?

As to Illinois I'm pretty certian it has been mentioned that God's Will aprty controls the sourthern half of the state (along with the southern portions of Ohio and Indiana) so it is divided.

okay.

Speaking only for my sub-story the Maryland ANG stayed loyal to FedGov hwoever it was essentially wiped out in 2043/4 when the Virginia National Guard was able to mount a full air defense system tied to the Lake Ana Nuclear Power Plant.

okay.

Also interesting seeing the fundamentalist states (Tennessee) having high-technology and knowledge. Religiousness doesn't always affect science.

[Lonestar]

whoa...most of the bases are in the South in this future? Were they divided up by where the soldiers came from, as in people who came from tennessee were sent to join the tennessee military, was it divided without a slight care to the "homes" of the troops, or did the troops get a choice?

(1)Most of the Bases are located in the South now, as well as in the Western "Red" states.

(2)The rural part of America provides a disproportionate amount to the military than everyone else. That's why the military is crawling with Texans but no New Yorkers.

[CmdrWilkens]

okay.

Also interesting seeing the fundamentalist states (Tennessee) having high-technology and knowledge. Religiousness doesn't always affect science.

Remember the split didn't happen until around 2040 so the US was united up until that point. The Federal Government was fuding research and procurement (which in turn went to southern bases as it does now) up until that point. Moreover places like North Carolina (the research triangle) and around Columbia SC have suprisingly heavy development of modern biotech and electronics firms. That is unlikely to completely whither in the next 40 years. Remember also that the FSU is not solely controlled by the God's Will party, they have a heavier hand in some states while in others (such as Virginia) there are far more pragmatists in charge.

[Adrian Laguna]

Remember also that the FSU is not solely controlled by the God's Will party, they have a heavier hand in some states while in others (such as Virginia) there are far more pragmatists in charge.

To expand on that, the Virginia actually dislikes the God's Will party. Earlier in the story, they conducted a raid on one of the God's Will concentration camps, executed every guard they could get their hands on, and freed all the prisoners, though primarily because there were Virginians being held there.

[Gil Hamilton]

To expand on that, the Virginia actually dislikes the God's Will party. Earlier in the story, they conducted a raid on one of the God's Will concentration camps, executed every guard they could get their hands on, and freed all the prisoners, though primarily because there were Virginians being held there.

Just the same, the fact they are willing to ally with people as repugnant as God's Will demonstrates they aren't that much better and deserve the same fate. Kind of the sick thing about Peak Oil is that both FedGov and FSU are pretty much both repulsive prospects.

[Adrian Laguna]

Just the same, the fact they are willing to ally with people as repugnant as God's Will demonstrates they aren't that much better and deserve the same fate.

Hardly, they're in a war for national survival, you take whatever allies you can take. As I said two pages ago, "self-preservation .... is the ultimate all-overriding moral concern, everything else is secondary."

If they deserve any terrible fate, it's for being dirty traitors and seceding.

[Gil Hamilton]

Hardly, they're in a war for national survival, you take whatever allies you can take. As I said in the previous page, "self-preservation, and I mean it in a sense that goes beyond the individual, is the ultimate all-overriding moral concern, everything else is secondary."

If they deserve any terrible fate, it's for being dirty traitors and seceding.

And they are aiding and abetting a massive pogrom to do it. If those members of the FSU that are supposedly decent actually stood for what they professed to, they'd would be actively opposed to God's Will, not supporting them as they rape, torture and murder millions of innocent people. If their nation requires it their survival, then they don't deserve to have a nation at all and should either die or submit to a better government. By throwing their lot in with God's Will, they've proven to be just as bad and should share the same fate.

Doubly so since even if the FSU actually manages to win, God's Will will be after them next.

[Adrian Laguna]

And they are aiding and abetting a massive pogrom to do it.

No they're not, they are ignoring it in most cases, and opposing it where it fucks their own citizens over.

If those members of the FSU that are supposedly decent actually stood for what they professed to, they'd would be actively opposed to God's Will, not supporting them as they rape, torture and murder millions of innocent people.

They cannot oppose God's Will completely, they are busy fighting-off the FedGov. You have to prioritize things, doing both at the same time is simply impossible. Furthermore, why should they give two shits what God's Will does outside their borders? If South Carolina wants to compete with Taliban Afghanistan for the "most opressive theocracy" award, it's none of Viriginia's business.

If their nation requires it their survival, then they don't deserve to have a nation at all and should either die or submit to a better government. By throwing their lot in with God's Will, they've proven to be just as bad and should share the same fate.

That's a non-sequitur. A nation's moral standing is not dictated by the allies they have available to them. By your stupid logic the United States and Great Britain were in the wrong by allying themselves with the Soviet Union in their fight against Nazi Germany.

Doubly so since even if the FSU actually manages to win, God's Will will be after them next.

Then they'll have to deal with that when the time comes, because they sure as hell are not in a position to deal with it now.

Though this does raise an interesting point, there's a good chance the FSU will end up tearing itself apart with internecine warfare. Which will lead to the FedGov starting the war again, unless the FSU got an overwhelming victory. However, I doubt the FedGov would bother reconquering it all like in the first Civil War, much of The South is simply not worth the expense needed to bring it back.

[Gil Hamilton]

No they're not, they are ignoring it in most cases, and opposing it where it fucks their own citizens over.

Like hell they aren't. They are actively giving military aid and fighting along side God's Will and deliberately letting it happen out of moral cowardice. By helping the actively helping the states that are committing the pogrom, with full knowledge of the pogrom, they are partners in it. It might not be their hands that hang gays from lampposts directly, but they are fighting to make sure it continues just the same.

They cannot oppose God's Will completely, they are busy fighting-off the FedGov. You have to prioritize things, doing both at the same time is simply impossible. Furthermore, why should they give two shits what God's Will does outside their borders? If South Carolina wants to compete with Taliban Afghanistan for the "most opressive theocracy" award, it's none of Viriginia's business.

Of course it is there business. They are part of the same country and are directly supporting South Carolina with their military, fighting along side of it in battle, and probably economically supporting them as well. If they are slaughtering people by the hundreds of thousands inside their borders for being gay or black or atheist, it damn well their business because they've thrown their lot in with them as a nation and in doing so proven there is not a shred of decency to any of them.

That's a non-sequitur. A nation's moral standing is not dictated by the allies they have available to them. By your stupid logic the United States and Great Britain were in the wrong by allying themselves with the Soviet Union in their fight against Nazi Germany.

You mean the company you keep isn't some measure of who you are? Besides, I'm pretty sure the US and Britian were wrong for playing up Uncle Joe as an ally and spent the next 45 years regretting it thanks to the loss of Eastern Europe and a dozen different proxy wars. That's what happens when you help monsters; they end up biting you in the ass. The FSU is going to learn that when God's Will decides that they are next.

Then they'll have to deal with that when the time comes, because they sure as hell are not in a position to deal with it now.

Of course they are, they can refuse to help God's Will at all or any body that supports them, telling them they are on their own if they are going to be committing genocide. They can refuse any material or food to them and shoot them whenever possible. It's a hell of a lot better than HELPING God's Will commit its atrocities.

Though this does raise an interesting point, there's a good chance the FSU will end up tearing itself apart with internecine warfare. Which will lead to the FedGov starting the war again, unless the FSU got an overwhelming victory. However, I doubt the FedGov would bother reconquering it all like in the first Civil War, much of The South is simply not worth the expense needed to bring it back.

The American South should be in utterly piss poor shape anyway. If we take a moderately bad global warming scenario (and it's Marina, so, of course we do), the American South should be very close to out of fresh water, somewhat resembling a savannah, and what fresh water there is would be crawling with plague bearing mosquitoes as insect line moved further north with rising temperatures. In my Biology class, the teacher talked about it that with 10 years as it is the American South will be seeing its first cases of native malaria the way things are going.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The American South should be in utterly piss poor shape anyway. If we take a moderately bad global warming scenario (and it's Marina, so, of course we do), the American South should be very close to out of fresh water, somewhat resembling a savannah, and what fresh water there is would be crawling with plague bearing mosquitoes as insect line moved further north with rising temperatures. In my Biology class, the teacher talked about it that with 10 years as it is the American South will be seeing its first cases of native malaria the way things are going.

Within less than a decade of the current date, yes, but Amy already has a story prepared for that period, so I won't say more.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The FSU is exactly what it claims to be--the Free States' Union. It is a military defensive alliance with an extremely limited government (somewhat more limited than the Articles of Confederation) that scarcely qualifies as transnational. Thus, the Virginian argument would be that it is, indeed, no different from allying with Uncle Joe.

Whether or not I, you, or anyone else, including Virginian government leaders in-universe, actually believe this, I will not say.

[Gil Hamilton]

The FSU is exactly what it claims to be--the Free States' Union. It is a military defensive alliance with an extremely limited government (somewhat more limited than the Articles of Confederation) that scarcely qualifies as transnational. Thus, the Virginian argument would be that it is, indeed, no different from allying with Uncle Joe.

Whether or not I, you, or anyone else, including Virginian government leaders in-universe, actually believe this, I will not say.

The problem is that an extremely limited government never actually existed in the United States. Hell, that was demonstrated by the end of George Washington's term in office (though granted the argument took 70 odd years to actually resolve). Them claiming that it is merely allying with Uncle Joe and they aren't responsible is delusional on their part.

With respect, that's one aspect of the story that I have trouble swallowing. These people are, what, 35 years removed from the modern day? Modern Americans simply don't think as other states as other autonomous states anymore (well, excepting Texas). Hell, modern evangelicals are actually against it. The current popular trend in Crazy Religious Right Christianity is mass market "Onward Christian Soldiers" fundamentalism, which is why they are spending so much trying to influence Washington and taking their message everywhere. You didn't hear Jerry Falwell talking about Virginia, but America in general. Your mileage may vary, of course, since I'm sure that the Mormon fundamentalists, for example, might be alot more insular, but Evangelicals are ANYTHING but. Particularly since they'll have pressing environmental and material reasons (such as not having nearly enough potable water to support their population) to expand.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The FSU is exactly what it claims to be--the Free States' Union. It is a military defensive alliance with an extremely limited government (somewhat more limited than the Articles of Confederation) that scarcely qualifies as transnational. Thus, the Virginian argument would be that it is, indeed, no different from allying with Uncle Joe.

Whether or not I, you, or anyone else, including Virginian government leaders in-universe, actually believe this, I will not say.

The problem is that an extremely limited government never actually existed in the United States. Hell, that was demonstrated by the end of George Washington's term in office (though granted the argument took 70 odd years to actually resolve). Them claiming that it is merely allying with Uncle Joe and they aren't responsible is delusional on their part.

With respect, that's one aspect of the story that I have trouble swallowing. These people are, what, 35 years removed from the modern day? Modern Americans simply don't think as other states as other autonomous states anymore (well, excepting Texas). Hell, modern evangelicals are actually against it. The current popular trend in Crazy Religious Right Christianity is mass market "Onward Christian Soldiers" fundamentalism, which is why they are spending so much trying to influence Washington and taking their message everywhere. You didn't hear Jerry Falwell talking about Virginia, but America in general. Your mileage may vary, of course, since I'm sure that the Mormon fundamentalists, for example, might be alot more insular, but Evangelicals are ANYTHING but. Particularly since they'll have pressing environmental and material reasons (such as not having nearly enough potable water to support their population) to expand.

Oh, the God's Will party is indeed ambitious.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The FSU is exactly what it claims to be--the Free States' Union. It is a military defensive alliance with an extremely limited government (somewhat more limited than the Articles of Confederation) that scarcely qualifies as transnational. Thus, the Virginian argument would be that it is, indeed, no different from allying with Uncle Joe.

Whether or not I, you, or anyone else, including Virginian government leaders in-universe, actually believe this, I will not say.

Except God's Will is arguably worse than standing up for opposition to collectivization and confederation as policial principles. That's just idiotic ideological ridgidity. Its more like allying with Nazi Germany against Uncle Joe. And just because you think, on principle, that his opposition to organized religion is mean.

[Adrian Laguna]

Gil, what precisely do you propose the secular FSU members do? They need the God's Will states. The company you keep is not a measure of your being when you don't have a choice in the matter. Either the FSU sticks together against the FedGov, or they'll be defeated in detail.

Except God's Will is arguably worse than standing up for opposition to collectivization and confederation as policial principles. That's just idiotic ideological ridgidity. Its more like allying with Nazi Germany against Uncle Joe. And just because you think, on principle, that his opposition to organized religion is mean.

Allying with Nazi Germany against Uncle Joe can be justified under certain situations, though the one you gave is not one them. There is actually one historical example of it happening, the case of Finland. Of course the Finnish miscalculated and backed the wrong horse, but the winner looked like a sure thing at the time.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Uh, you don't secede over ideology when part of your camp are millennial genocidal religious theocrats. You act like there were no God's Will or proto-God's Will lunatics at the time of secession, and only now the FSU has suddenly left to deal with this group appearing. We're alive 35 years ahead of time and it occurs to us as easily possible that extreme religious theocrats could become powerful in extreme circumstances.

[Adrian Laguna]

I disagree with them seceding in the first place, but that ship sailed already. At this point in the story the FSU has no choice but to stick together.

[CmdrWilkens]

Uh, you don't secede over ideology when part of your camp are millennial genocidal religious theocrats. You act like there were no God's Will or proto-God's Will lunatics at the time of secession, and only now the FSU has suddenly left to deal with this group appearing. We're alive 35 years ahead of time and it occurs to us as easily possible that extreme religious theocrats could become powerful in extreme circumstances.

The thing is that, near as I can tell, seccession was accomplished because the states did not agree with the federal government's unificaiton with Canada and the end run around the constitution this took. Each of the southern states took adifferent path towards independence and the FSU was formed AFTER the fact when FedGov was threatening to roll up each state individually. At that point allying together was a matter of national survival and that trumps silly things like the ideology of your partners. The FSU is much more like a VERY loose NATO than anything else near as I can tell.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The thing is that, near as I can tell, seccession was accomplished because the states did not agree with the federal government's unificaiton with Canada and the end run around the constitution this took.

This is rigid ideology, nothing more. Especially since individual liberties and human rights are more openly shit on in the FSU than in the FedGov.

Each of the southern states took adifferent path towards independence and the FSU was formed AFTER the fact when FedGov was threatening to roll up each state individually. At that point allying together was a matter of national survival and that trumps silly things like the ideology of your partners. The FSU is much more like a VERY loose NATO than anything else near as I can tell.

First of all, they obviously knew they had a bloc to count on or seccession would have failed (just like the first time around; South Carolina didn't secede believing seriously no one might follow; it was a regional movement and they knew they had support, to suggest otherwise here is ridiculous). Second of all, people and corporations (in the general sense) do not get to absolve themselves of all moral responsibility simply because of unintended consequences. Third, it is not a very loose NATO; it is between the Confederation and the European Union; NATO is a mutual defense pact - it has no government whatsoever.

[Warsie]

[That's a non-sequitur. A nation's moral standing is not dictated by the allies they have available to them. By your stupid logic the United States and Great Britain were in the wrong by allying themselves with the Soviet Union in their fight against Nazi Germany.
.

It is odd given the US and UK intervened on behalf of the White Armies during the Russian Civil War and then they change their policies.

EDIT: I will answer the other guy's posts.

EDIT 2: Lonestar, thx.

Remember the split didn't happen until around 2040 so the US was united up until that point.

okay.

The Federal Government was fuding research and procurement (which in turn went to southern bases as it does now) up until that point. Moreover places like North Carolina (the research triangle) and around Columbia SC have suprisingly heavy development of modern biotech and electronics firms. That is unlikely to completely whither in the next 40 years.

okay, right.

Remember also that the FSU is not solely controlled by the God's Will party, they have a heavier hand in some states while in others (such as Virginia) there are far more pragmatists in charge.

right. Do the God's Will favor technological advancement? As in basic sciences and r&d, ignoring the possibility of creationism. Have they reformed to say god still formed humans but they also believe in evolution, or are they still young earth creationists?

What is their policies and beliefs? Given it's 40 years in the future I think they would change somewhat (IIRC younger evangelicals are more pro-environment, for example). Would the God's Will want renewable energy, but done in decentralized programs.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Do neo-fascists control Italy, and anti-Muslim xenophobes control Switzerland and the Netherlands?

...as they do at the moment?

[CmdrWilkens]

The thing is that, near as I can tell, seccession was accomplished because the states did not agree with the federal government's unificaiton with Canada and the end run around the constitution this took.

This is rigid ideology, nothing more. Especially since individual liberties and human rights are more openly shit on in the FSU than in the FedGov.

Really? Oh sure freedom of religion, association, and speech is shit on heavily in the FSU but the 4th amendment, for all intents and purposes, no longer exists in FedGov. Both essentially have moved past the 8th amendment and, as demonstrated by Marina's main storyline, FedGov has moved explicitly past the 6th.

It would be rather hard to say that one more openly shits more upon its citizens than the other. Moreso also because FSU IS a Union with essentially no real central government. Virginia is a sovreign state, and clearly conducts itself with a bit of respect, Kentucky and the rest of the FSU are also individually sovreign states that are in an alliance of mutual defense. My point is that lumping the FSU together is disingenuous as there is no uniform code or treatment of individual liberties its entirely on a state by state basis.

Each of the southern states took adifferent path towards independence and the FSU was formed AFTER the fact when FedGov was threatening to roll up each state individually. At that point allying together was a matter of national survival and that trumps silly things like the ideology of your partners. The FSU is much more like a VERY loose NATO than anything else near as I can tell.

First of all, they obviously knew they had a bloc to count on or seccession would have failed (just like the first time around; South Carolina didn't secede believing seriously no one might follow; it was a regional movement and they knew they had support, to suggest otherwise here is ridiculous).

Which says nothing about the nature of God's Will or how obvious its effects were. The movement was due to constitutional liberties taken by FedGov, God's Will came to power later only AFTER the federal instuitutions (which would still have prevented such obvious unions of Church and state). So again while it was a regional movement those who were in power politically were not yet openly or even obviously allied with the kind of theocratic regieme that God's Will advocates.

Second of all, people and corporations (in the general sense) do not get to absolve themselves of all moral responsibility simply because of unintended consequences. Third, it is not a very loose NATO; it is between the Confederation and the European Union; NATO is a mutual defense pact - it has no government whatsoever.

What government does the FSU have? Not much of one, its essentially a puppet regieme with less power than the articles of confederation and it serves mostly to co-ordinate (hell it has no power to force) military assistance. Part of the back story I'm working on (but haven't yet gotten approved) deals with how you get situations like Kentucky troops taking Virginian's prisoner. The FSu 'government" has no power to even mediate disputes between these states and thus you get situations where Virginia launches an organized raid into Kentucky (supposedly allied territory) and the "government" can't do shit about it.

Lastly I'm not saying Virginia (and other moderate states such as North Carolina, Montana, Colorado, and possibly some of the rest of the mountain west) is absolved of responsibility. What I am saying is that those states seceeded from the US because they felt the right to a republican government had been violated and thus the Constitution was voided (and in turn any moral requirement to hold alleignace shattered). In order to protect their citizens against armed intrusion by FedGov they allied with like minded states who happened to practice a theocratic ideology after the fact. It doesn't mean they aren't morally culpable it means that in a utilitarian mindset (from their standpoint) the positive, of maintaining the rights of their citiznes, outweighed the negative, condoning and being complicit in the absuses in neighboring states.