SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK II

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The problem here is twofold. The other warlords will see that now, Ramsley has international backing. This could drive them into an attack out of fear. Which then gives the OMSK the perfect pretext to launch their own attack and gain a new continent. Especially as such a scenario is easily predictable. The argument would thus run that they knew that would happen, and so they went in knowing full well their presence would trigger this incident, and their excuse.

The issue for OMSK, is that we will be needing to marshal all the 5 largest militaries in OMSK (Byzantium, Zoria, Red Technocracy, UKB, Shepnukistan) to do the job of keeping the peace after we subdue whatever opposition left. No, that is not an option for us.

The other problem is, as alluded to above, Ramsley and whether or not he can dupe you. Which he could. And even if he doesn't, the obvious concern then becomes similar to the above: how do the rest of us know such a transgression occured, and it is not just the OMSK saying it happened so they can land themselves a new continent?

Again, it will cost us lots in War Materiel and funds to get such an immerse operation going, with no way to tell if some insurgency erupts against us. There are limits to OMSK military power. Unless you suggest we obliterate half of Terra Libertia.

One bloc backing a Warlord instantly breeds mistrust over their intentions within the other two. Simply handwaving that away is either naive, or supremely arrogant.

Well, no argument there.

[PeZook]

Well, damn. Ramsley is milking this to the fullest, isn't he?

[K. A. Pital]

Ania is RPing Ramsley. (at least, heavily helping me to do it, she knows more of Orthodoxy than I do)

But sure he's getting a kick out of it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

There's one method which was used with some success in history: Place international peacekeepers on the borders between the warlords. No military units go through, one way or another, and they are told to organize their countries.

The problem of deception still remains, of course: All three of those guys have the advantage in this field, because none of us know as much about Libertopia as they do.

And, of course, the peacekeepers would have to remain there God knows how long.

Which is a problem, as you said. We'd all have to keep them there, for God knows how long. We can't pull them out or we go right back to the original problem, and whether some provocation was real or manufactured so that bloc can make a land-grab.

There's still the issue of neutrality as well.

[RogueIce]

The problem here is twofold. The other warlords will see that now, Ramsley has international backing. This could drive them into an attack out of fear. Which then gives the OMSK the perfect pretext to launch their own attack and gain a new continent. Especially as such a scenario is easily predictable. The argument would thus run that they knew that would happen, and so they went in knowing full well their presence would trigger this incident, and their excuse.

The issue for OMSK, is that we will be needing to marshal all the 5 largest militaries in OMSK (Byzantium, Zoria, Red Technocracy, UKB, Shepnukistan) to do the job of keeping the peace after we subdue whatever opposition left. No, that is not an option for us.

The other problem is, as alluded to above, Ramsley and whether or not he can dupe you. Which he could. And even if he doesn't, the obvious concern then becomes similar to the above: how do the rest of us know such a transgression occured, and it is not just the OMSK saying it happened so they can land themselves a new continent?

Again, it will cost us lots in War Materiel and funds to get such an immerse operation going, with no way to tell if some insurgency erupts against us. There are limits to OMSK military power. Unless you suggest we obliterate half of Terra Libertia.

Obviously I would not suggest such a thing. But what would that mean? You support Ramsley, unless a rival attacks? And then it's too bad for Ramsley because you don't want to get bogged down? That makes your 'support' for Ramsley little more than empty rhetoric, and is going to earn you an enemy because you abandoned him.

Your other option is what? Air strikes in support of his forces? Then you're just letting him take over the country as your proxy, to eventually install himself as the new "leader" of Terra Libertia, which is now an OMSK Pact puppet state. Either that or an endless civil war, with you bombing the people of Libertia. Which isn't going to go over well with the international community, either.

You see where this is going? If you take any action to support Ramsley if he attacks his neighbors (with or without 'cause') the rest of the world is not damned likely to take it all on good faith that you're not just after a puppet regime. The other option is that you don't support Ramsley when the time comes, your empty rhetoric is revealed for what it was, and you earn a lifelong enemy. Plus the fact that a civil war (limited or not) got started because Ramsley sure as fuck thought you'd have his back.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You see where this is going? If you take any action to support Ramsley if he attacks his neighbors (with or without 'cause') the rest of the world is not damned likely to take it all on good faith that you're not just after a puppet regime. The other option is that you don't support Ramsley when the time comes, your empty rhetoric is revealed for what it was, and you earn a lifelong enemy. Plus the fact that a civil war (limited or not) got started because Ramsley sure as fuck thought you'd have his back.

At this stand point, we haven't exactly offered Ramsley anything really concrete, that much I can tell you.

[K. A. Pital]

Which isn't going to go over well with the international community, either.

Leaving Ramsley doesn't go well with the fictional populations of our nations, and my very real fiance

We have not offered ANYTHING so far however, the OMSK Summit is only about to start since I wait Shep and Bean

[RogueIce]

At this stand point, we haven't exactly offered Ramsley anything really concrete, that much I can tell you.

That's good. Frankly, we're hoping it stays that way.

Look, it's obvious: fixing Terra Libertia with anything resembling a military solution is just going to cause more problems than it solves, no matter if one nation does it or all of us.

If we are intent on somehow 'fixing' Terra Libertia (assuming such a thing is even possible) we need to take any military option right off the table. It simply opens itself to far, far too much risk otherwise.

Which isn't going to go over well with the international community, either.

Leaving Ramsley doesn't go well with the fictional populations of our nations, and my very real fiance

I realize that you find yourself in a difficult situation, Stas. But appeasing your people, and even your wife, is simply not going to be sufficient justification to the rest of us.

We have not offered ANYTHING so far however, the OMSK Summit is only about to start since I wait Shep and Bean

As I said to Fingolfin, that's good. We're hoping to keep it that way.

The best solution may be to simply have Bean and Shep say no. At which point you can claim that "while we wanted to help, our hands are tied." That may or may not be wholly effective at placating your wife or populace, but it won't earn you a whole bunch of international trouble, either.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

THere is indeed an unanswered question though. Technically the Sultan is more liable to align with Saddamistan in some pan-Arab brotherhood thing. How do we not know that he is getting ready to pursue a proxy war against anyhow?

[RogueIce]

THere is indeed an unanswered question though. Technically the Sultan is more liable to align with Saddamistan in some pan-Arab brotherhood thing. How do we not know that he is getting ready to pursue a proxy war against anyhow?

We don't. So far Saddamistan has been pretty isolationist so such a possibility is remote. If it should happen, we'd just have to deal with it then (and obviously, only Sea Skimmer himself could do such a thing; anyone else tries pulling it and it'd just be an unfounded lie).

This situation, however, is current. We know Ramsley is pushing for it and we know elements within the OMSK Pact are supporting him. Frankly the nebulous, unfounded, and completely unprovable fear that Saddamistan might be supporting the Sultan is no justification at all.

[K. A. Pital]

The issues here are involving Skimmer so someone could send him a friendly PM about it, to RP Saddamistan for a bit.

But appeasing your people, and even your wife

My wife has control of all this airforce and serious sway over the military (she also has my passwords!). So she could organize something when I'm asleep, or from another PC, and she said that even as it's a game, she'll have much fun out of it! can't blame her really.

I'm not thnking we should give Ramsley anything that'd allow him to steamroll over other Libertian territories, but we could at the very least acknowledge his state. It's not as if he's asking us to swipe Libertia clean and leave him as the only one in power right now. His demands are modest - trade, recognitin of state and a modicum of protection, which is now up for grabs.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'm not thnking we should give Ramsley anything that'd allow him to steamroll over other Libertian territories, but we could at the very least acknowledge his state. It's not as if he's asking us to swipe Libertia clean and leave him as the only one in power right now. His demands are modest - trade, recognitin of state and a modicum of protection, which is now up for grabs.

I think the trouble is "modicum" of protection. I have no trouble with locking up the Patriarch in his room to shut him up, but his followers will have a problem.

And I believe this recognition must be shared with the MESS and FUN.

[K. A. Pital]

How about agreeing to help Ramsley fend off possible attacks with, say, missile strikes, but limit any aid in case he openly advances into another's territory? After all we have people who could observe what was going on, military advisors, etc.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

How about agreeing to help Ramsley fend off possible attacks with, say, missile strikes, but limit any aid in case he openly advances into another's territory? After all we have people who could observe what was going on, military advisors, etc.

We can assist him with defences yes. That much I believe I can agree upon.

And I would prefer that MESS and FUN set up embassies together with us and have military attaches.

Consider this a joint mission in the absence of a UN.

[PeZook]

We can assist him with defences yes. That much I believe I can agree upon.

And I would prefer that MESS and FUN set up embassies together with us and have military attaches.

Consider this a joint mission in the absence of a UN.

This will work only if we do the same for all three warlords, and if they don't immediately start plotting to use us in order to get rid of their rivals.

Some sort of "If he goes down, you all go down" arrangement may be necessary if we pursue this solution, but that requires making them jointly responsible for security of Terra Liberia, and they are just too incompatible for that.

[RogueIce]

How about agreeing to help Ramsley fend off possible attacks with, say, missile strikes, but limit any aid in case he openly advances into another's territory? After all we have people who could observe what was going on, military advisors, etc.

What if another faction attacks him, whether they did it genuinely or they manage to fool you? What if they ignore your missile strikes (again, genuine or not)? How far will your protection go?

I'm going to be issuing a statement soon in the game thread. I want to make clear to everyone that diplomacy is my primary recourse, and I acknowledge and welcome the talks we are having now, and will continue to pursue this matter as such.

However, this is a grave situation and I also recognize that I may have to prepare my people and the international community for the worst. I do not anticipate this will be a worst-case scenario, but I would be negligent in my duties if I did not at least try to prepare for it, either.

I wanted to make this clear, now, before anyone gets upset over what I say, as my resolve is firm that the backing of a Libertopian Warlord (and creating a puppet state) will not be allowed to stand. I am not saying this is anybody's intention, but as the old saying goes, "plan for the worst, hope [and work for <- my addition] the best."

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

This will work only if we do the same for all three warlords, and if they don't immediately start plotting to use us in order to get rid of their rivals.

Some sort of "If he goes down, you all go down" arrangement may be necessary if we pursue this solution, but that requires making them jointly responsible for security of Terra Liberia, and they are just too incompatible for that.

Well, it's quite possible the other two warlords might also seek recognition as well if they see benefits and incentives to seek it. Now if the other two choose to ally together against Ramlsey, then we really have a sticky situation, though it does present an opportunity to bleed out the attackers and force all of them to the table when they are weakened.

However, some kind of detente between OMSK and MESS must be achieved with regard to Terra Libertia before anything of this sort is managed.

[K. A. Pital]

How about "massive retaliations"? Something like

"Look what happened to Zablania. Now, if a war happens here, Libertia will be devastated".

I think at least Alex and Ramsley care for their people, I don't know about Sultan.

Of course, if Ramsley allows military contingents to be based in his nation, we can reliably strike him down if he slides, so he'd be both wary of his rivals and pissing us off at the same time.

EDIT: Rogue, our protection will only go as far as required to protect Ramsley's territory from incursions. If we would see he gets overpowered, we could advance there and push the enemies back to a Designated Border Line, but before that we would need to agree on Lbertian borders.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

How about "massive retaliations"? Something like

"Look what happened to Zablania. Now, if a war happens here, Libertia will be devastated".

I think at least Alex and Ramsley care for their people, I don't know about Sultan.

Of course, if Ramsley allows military contingents to be based in his nation, we can reliably strike him down if he slides, so he'd be both wary of his rivals and pissing us off at the same time.

Well, the issue then is this: If both of the other sides choose to attack us, can our military contingent fend off such an assault or get obliterated? It goes back to how large a commitment do we want?

[K. A. Pital]

If both of the other sides choose to attack us, can our military contingent fend off such an assault or get obliterated?

I'm sure it can.

We have strategic bombers and even spaceborn assault weapons!

In other issues, I see that Tonkin is speaking for the MESS regarding our SPIRAL test firing, but so? We made this space fighter to fight satellites too and we actually needed to test it. "Space Forces" are the most useful form of deterrent, and given that a space fighter with one spaceborn nuclear missile can reliably strike at a CVBG, I see good reasons to pursue such course of action. Little craft, huge deterrent.

Better than running those huge expensive Navies, even though with the Libertia issue I'm reluctant to do anything to my Navy right now.

[RogueIce]

Well, the issue then is this: If both of the other sides choose to attack us, can our military contingent fend off such an assault or get obliterated? It goes back to how large a commitment do we want?

And then what do you do? Push them back to their borders or continue on?

A prime concern is this: once your troops are there, and if anything pops off, the rest of the world simply has no way of knowing what your actions will be, regardless of any promises you make, until it is too late. I'm sorry if you take that as a slight, but that's the reality of the situation. We won't know until it's too late, and as a result we don't want the situation to arise in the first place.

At any rate, the MESS has laid its cards on the table.

Let me again remind you that I want this settled diplomatically, and I am not going to operate under the assumption the OMSK is working towards some sinister goal. But as I said before, we can't simply sit back and assume everything will work out for the best. And we won't know what your military forces will and won't do when push comes to shove until it is too late. As a result, we really don't want them there at all.

[Shroom Man 777]

I wonder if Shroomania could make a buck off this by sending Mercenary Aces to patrol the skies of Libertia, for the highest bidder, and for outrageous fees!

Hell, I am not getting Shroomania into another quagmire. Humanitarian aid, sure, okay. Condoms and malaria meds, cool. But no military stuff. That's expensive. They can take their hoes and seeds and plant root vegetables, that's the only solution I'm for.

We can't forget that if we end up backing one warlord, we might have two other warlords sending terrorist cells at us! That's gonna be a pain in the arse. I do not want War on Terror shenenigans.

EDIT:

You know, Stas, I have to side with the MESS here. Dicking around with Libertia is a no go. First world nations dicking with Third World crappers generally never end well. Goddamn Libertopians are probably gonna be worse.

WTF, Adrian? The Philippines?! LOL!

[K. A. Pital]

I wonder if Shroomania could make a buck off this by sending Mercenary Aces to patrol the skies of Libertia

You have that mercenary jet group working already? That's their prime conflict. Don't get upset if they die however.

As for Libertia, this guy is asking us to help. We'll see what we can offer. It's not as if he's demanding.

P.S. You got to admit, Ramsley has a point about Ibrahim (even if he's painting himself all rosy, but that's normal for political leaders)

[RogueIce]

I wonder if Shroomania could make a buck off this by sending Mercenary Aces to patrol the skies of Libertia, for the highest bidder, and for outrageous fees!

If they tried, they'd better be damn secretive about it. Or expect the MESS to put every possible effort into intercepting their transport.

We're serious about this. Nobody backs a faction militarily, and we'll do everything in our power to prevent it.

And to that end, we're going to start a serious look at just what ProTec is doing over there. Beowulf I believe already spoke against their participation, and I too was wary of it. They kind of got under the radar given what's been going on as of late, but that won't last.

[K. A. Pital]

But those are MERC JETS!!! !! you're going overboard with that blockade.

Hell, you are instaling it already or just warning?