SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK II

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-05-06 12:46pm

PeZook wrote:There is another alternative to military force: maybe we should discuss insidious, evil undermining schemes like large-scale humanitarian aid?

The basic plan would look like this: Recognize all three warlords as legitimate rulers, but make it clear that we won't provide any military aid to them. Not a single AK-47, no alliances, nothing.

Then lay out the basic rules: They get humanitarian aid, and lots of it. Schools, roads, hospitals and clinics, training and equipment for farmers, craftsmen and police, diesel generators, etc.

They have to provide security for all those projects, though, and make sure corrupt officials don't try to run protection rackets (and don't run them themselves...)

If they fail to provide adequate security, we back out. If any faction attacks any other faction, they all lose all aid packages.

The idea is to make the warlords more concerned with their internal affairs than warfare. In addition, they would benefit from stability in their own territories.

Details are obviously lacking, and there would be many problems, but it's an alternative. Discuss?

Generally acceptable to me. In which case, less military entanglement in my opinion.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-05-06 12:48pm

Since it became clear there won't be official state help to any Libertian leader so far Ramsley went off.

Some people went after him, but they are private citizens and free to do as they wish.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-05-06 12:51pm

We do not need more theocracies. I am afraid the Red Technocracy will transmogrify into a Technotheocracy and that makes me afraid.

Goddamn KGB Spetznaz nutters are going into Goddamn Libertopia! Holy shit!

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-05-06 12:56pm

We do not need more theocracies.

There aren't many.

I am afraid the Red Technocracy will transmogrify into a Technotheocracy

What, Warhammer 40K is bad?!

Seriously, these are 500 men (out of my 30,000,000 population, which is around 30% Orthodox and 50% Atheist or Agnostic) and they are private guys. Ania (Ramsley) leads them to St. Basils. That's all I know

after all she's RP in them.

Goddamn KGB Spetznaz nutters are going into Goddamn Libertopia!

Only around 10 of them are from the Spetsnaz

and I reiterate they are private guys I have no control over. My citizens are NOT SLAVES.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-05-06 12:56pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:We do not need more theocracies. I am afraid the Red Technocracy will transmogrify into a Technotheocracy and that makes me afraid.

Goddamn KGB Spetznaz nutters are going into Goddamn Libertopia! Holy shit!

No, that would never happen, even in Byzantium. The Emperor has made it quite clear to the Patriarch to stay out of politics. *Hears the Patriarch banging the doors rather hard while 2 household guards stand watch*

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-05-06 01:00pm

Libertopia will be an technothriller, who ever could've expected that?

Spetznaz from the Red Technocracy! And da KGB. In Libertopia... anarchy rules YOU!

Turks from the Shinra Republic!

The Fungal Bureau of Intelligence! FBI freeze scumbag!

The Waffen Shroomzstaffel!

Maaaang!

Cloak and daggery. Me likes.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-05-06 01:00pm

Stas Bush wrote: Only around 10 of them are from the Spetsnaz and I reiterate they are private guys I have no control over. My citizens are NOT SLAVES.

You know, it's not like the USSR didn't send around Spetznaz disguised as private citizens so that they could get a good look at things they were to blow up in case of WWIII.

So...this is pretty typical. 550 "volunteers" go over to help, and of course nearly half of them are former soldiers of various military branches.

They are going there either to provide security or train Ramsley's forces, I'd say.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-05-06 01:02pm

*grumbles something about not being allowed to send mercenary aces...*

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-05-06 01:05pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:*grumbles something about not being allowed to send mercenary aces...*

Well, we can wait for what the MESS does.

I think I'll start handing out gas masks and iodine pills again. Yeah.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2008-05-06 01:05pm

How many Theocracies do we even HAVE in the new world? Given the mostly secular nature of those involved I had guessed that religion was at a minamum in most nations. Shoot the largest religious sect in my Nation is the Flying Sphghetti Monster

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-05-06 01:12pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:How many Theocracies do we even HAVE in the new world? Given the mostly secular nature of those involved I had guessed that religion was at a minamum in most nations. Shoot the largest religious sect in my Nation is the Flying Sphghetti Monster

Byzantium is NOT a Theocracy.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2008-05-06 01:25pm

Shepnukstain is a well know as as being the home of the Church of the Holy Atom. (Or is it theHoly Bomb?)

The UKB is a mish-mash, many churches of ten dozen different religious, few people attend however.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-05-06 01:27pm

You know, it's not like the USSR didn't send around Spetznaz disguised as private citizens so that they could get a good look at things they were to blow up in case of WWIII.

Those swear allegiance to the Patriarchy, not me. They're not controlled by our Government.

But the UOC (Unified Orthodox Church) exerts control over them and to some degree Ramsley. My fiancee said Ramsley would probably fear to lose favour of UOC and Ecumenical Patriarch, so he won't go autocephalic.

Unless the UOC betrays him rather severely somehow, of course.

EDIT: once again, those are PRIVATE DUDES

I didn't "send them", they volunteered like some Islam dudes volunteer and come to Iraq to fight.

EDIT 2: "ODESSA" is a 550 person civilian ocean liner, and if someone sinks it... well...

The dudes there carry no weapons and they are all civilians even if ex military.

Thats' just to prevent trigger happy accidents. But I hope you all are shrewd politicians and know it already

the UOC is smart. After all, it wouldn't gain so much power if it were dumb

EDIT 3: New map, don't forget to reload!

NOTE 1: INDHOPAL: sorry but we decided the Central Sea is too crammed long ago. Still you're close to where you wanted to be.
NOTE 2: ADRIAN: I expanded you south because Bean is the closest to Equator (and thus has efficient launch locations for spaceports), and North of Bean the Archipelago so far stretches further than South of Bean.

Also, you're close to Libertia and Saddam, and Simplicius. Have fun.

Raj Ahten · Post by **Raj Ahten** » 2008-05-06 04:09pm

I'm cool with where I ended up on the map, first off.

Now on to Libertopian issues. I don't think amssive aid would work by itself. I figure the warlords would just end up embezzling it all. Short of a masive deployment of troops, I think it would be impossible to keep the warlords from fighting each other. Even with a masive peacemaker deploymen, the warlords could still initiate hostilities. (Rocket attacks raids by small groups, etc.) Not to mention that all the international troops would likely then become targets.

Some other "solutions" include backing one warlord to create a stte, keeping a hands off approuch except to strike targets that threaten national security, or using the area to train troops in a massive proxy war (if one calls that a solution)

My nation is advocating backing the Iron General. He is a ruthless Strongman, but that means he is more predictable. Plus I am getting conflict diamonds and the like from him.

A more humanitarian method would be to try and get negotiations started to have actual states from the warlord's territory made. However, that only works if all the warlords agree to it. They may want to fight it out first.

Post by **Coyote** » 2008-05-06 04:17pm

Raj Ahten wrote:My nation is advocating backing the Iron General. He is a ruthless Strongman, but that means he is more predictable. Plus I am getting conflict diamonds and the like from him.

Cool, you could have all sorts of protesters and stuff...

Raj Ahten · Post by **Raj Ahten** » 2008-05-06 04:35pm

Coyote wrote:
Raj Ahten wrote:My nation is advocating backing the Iron General. He is a ruthless Strongman, but that means he is more predictable. Plus I am getting conflict diamonds and the like from him.
Cool, you could have all sorts of protesters and stuff...

Well, I'm thinking of things much worse than protests haoppening eventually, especially with the OMSK fanatics in the mix......

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2008-05-06 04:43pm

Raj, where the Hell are your planes coming from in support of this attack in Libertopia? Or your other assets, for that matter?

Raj Ahten · Post by **Raj Ahten** » 2008-05-06 04:52pm

Lonestar wrote:Raj, where the Hell are your planes coming from in support of this attack in Libertopia? Or your other assets, for that matter?

When I made ProTec, they owned their own squadron of COIN aircraft and Heavy lift planes. THis isn't a stretch as outfits in the real world such as Executive Outcomes had attack helicopters and cargo jets. ProTec is like them only much bigger. They've been setting up base in the Iron General's territory for quite some time now.

Their assets are most certainly not my state's assets; Indhopal has a tiny military that can't really move anywhere. Militarily ProTec is Blackwatewr or Vinnel on steroids. They can do just fine at defending individuals or convoys, just don't expect them to invade any real country. They don't have any units bigger than roughly a platoon at all (Their SAR guys are probably the biggest independent outfit they got.) Mostly juast trainers and base security sorts. Depending on what happens in Libertopia though, they may actually gear up combat units of decent strength if they can find the APC's etc for them., Otherwise they will be operating out of technicals.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2008-05-06 04:57pm

That wasn't the real question. I mean where are they being based out of and how did they get there.

Raj Ahten · Post by **Raj Ahten** » 2008-05-06 05:09pm

Lonestar wrote:That wasn't the real question. I mean where are they being based out of and how did they get there.

Excuse me. ProTec has a contract with the Iron General (Alexander) to provide air support and training. They are basing out of his territory, which they have been flying supplies into for quite some time. That said, after these strikes, not too much more can happen until stockpiles build up again. Soon they can proabbly start using ships to bring supplies in, but that takes a lot longer and I used to think the Iron General didn't have a coast line. (If he doesn't have a decent port, things will have to continue being flown in at extreme cost.)

Edit: That town, Freetown, I made up to give my report more detail, rather than saying a hit a random city.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2008-05-06 05:40pm

Stas Bush wrote:So, is someone willing to have another tension round over Libertia? [Deathdealer apparently wants to]

Bean tried to insinuate that we're helping the Sultan. But since he said it was from Mangka I'll be nice and assume he meant the Triads, which is a criminal organization. So that's not the MESS supporting them, any more than your 'pilgrims' are the Red Technocracy backing Ramsley.

And since they're not shipping weapons out there, why would we stop them? Of course if we later find out otherwise, well... Besides, we wouldn't sink them. We'd stop and search if a quarantine were enacted.

Stas Bush wrote:NOTE 2: ADRIAN: I expanded you south because Bean is the closest to Equator (and thus has efficient launch locations for spaceports), and North of Bean the Archipelago so far stretches further than South of Bean.

Also, you're close to Libertia and Saddam, and Simplicius. Have fun.

Thanks, the MESS now has a perfect spot to base from if we ever do impose our quarantine or the like. Since Adrian is one of us.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-05-06 05:51pm

RogueIce wrote:Bean tried to insinuate that we're helping the Sultan. But since he said it was from Mangka I'll be nice and assume he meant the Triads, which is a criminal organization. So that's not the MESS supporting them, any more than your 'pilgrims' are the Red Technocracy backing Ramsley.

And since they're not shipping weapons out there, why would we stop them? Of course if we later find out otherwise, well... Besides, we wouldn't sink them. We'd stop and search if a quarantine were enacted.

Wait, criminal elements are supporting the Sultan? Byzantium demands to know to what extent this support entails and that the MESS do something to clean up their own backyard or we will be forced to take appropriate action.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2008-05-06 05:53pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Wait, criminal elements are supporting the Sultan? Byzantium demands to know to what extent this support entails and that the MESS do something to clean up their own backyard or we will be forced to take appropriate action.

Yeah, isn't like we aren't doing smash-and-grabs in Libertopia or anything.

Post by **Coyote** » 2008-05-06 05:54pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Wait, criminal elements are supporting the Sultan? Byzantium demands to know to what extent this support entails and that the MESS do something to clean up their own backyard or we will be forced to take appropriate action.

Say whut?

Post by **RogueIce** » 2008-05-06 05:56pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Wait, criminal elements are supporting the Sultan? Byzantium demands to know to what extent this support entails and that the MESS do something to clean up their own backyard or we will be forced to take appropriate action.

We've been trying to stop them for a long time now. What do you think those MESS police advisors were doing when they were kidnapped?

At any rate, this is unconfirmed remember. It's not like we have some strict policy that all ROBs must be given up if you're leaving the MESS. And it may not even be the Triads. There could be some radical Islamist sects that are covertly supporting them. You know, like how Ramsley got some former Spetsnaz and other soldiers as 'private citizens exercising free travel' from the Red Technocracy.

And ultimately this is Bean's baby, remember. He's the one saying they're somehow getting some kind of support from somebody in the MESS. So no, we're not trying to backdoor our way into propping a warlord, public statements to the contrary.