EU Extra

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, and we're supposed to uh, ignore the fact he chose not to have that in the script? Fanon. He specifically states on multiple occassions IN CANON only "one" knew the power but he was sure that together "they would" be able to "discover" the secret.

I thought that was in reference to attaining immortality, not creating life?

They're implied to be aspects of the same power. That doesn't change the fact that the canon and multiple sources have said the Force willed Anakin into being and the fact that GL deliberately exorcised "Sidious/Plagueis created Anakin" from the script. The current state of the evidence does not show that Sidious or Plagueis created Anakin. The novelisation implies the Sith and Palpatine took the Jedi Prophecy of the Chosen One seriously, and sought out Anakin for the same reason the Jedi did, which necessarily excludes the fact they created him. There are so many plotholes and leaps in logic required to make such a theory work anyhow: what, did Sidious or Plagueis meditate at length and squint real hard and then the Force rolled a die to see which random woman would bare the immaculate conception? Did Sidious or Plagueis choose some slave woman in the middle of nowhere for his experiments then bump his head and forgot who or where she was?

Sidious didn't create Anakin, that was just Wookiee-variety fanon. Haha, I just got your joke, lol. That's a good impression of the average fanwanker, Wayne.

Twas no joke. Sidious did create Anakin, before Lucas took that out of the script.

I am talking about the rest of your post. Han CinC of the armed forces? Chewie his second-in-command? Extra Death Stars which the playing-nice Remnant doesn't use to upset the balance of power and the NR tolerates? Mothma vanishes and Leia is Supreme Chancellor? Windu comes back from nowhere?

No offense, but that post I literally thought was tongue-in-cheek satire of TFN/typical fanboy wank and fanservice.

[Lord Poe]

Again, why wouldn't Windu be alive? Fuckin' Luke took more Force lightning than Windu did. Luke survived having a hand chopped off. Anakin was almost able to fly in AOTC. Why would this mark the end of Windu?

Why NOT have Solo STILL be a general? He was one in ROTJ. Why WOULD'NT Chewie still be his trusted second? The remnant would use their Death Star to secure their space, until such a time came for them to attack the galaxy at large. This would give more than ample story arcs WITHOUT a ton of Imperial crap that has bogged down the EU before Vong and Mandos took over. If the NR wanted to go in to Imperial held space because they have a Death Star, then so be it.

[Havok]

Again, why wouldn't Windu be alive? Fuckin' Luke took more Force lightning than Windu did. Luke survived having a hand chopped off. Anakin was almost able to fly in AOTC. Why would this mark the end of Windu?

Why NOT have Solo STILL be a general? He was one in ROTJ. Why WOULD'NT Chewie still be his trusted second? The remnant would use their Death Star to secure their space, until such a time came for them to attack the galaxy at large. This would give more than ample story arcs WITHOUT a ton of Imperial crap that has bogged down the EU before Vong and Mandos took over. If the NR wanted to go in to Imperial held space because they have a Death Star, then so be it.

Huh. I'm actually kinda torn here.

[phongn]

I keep hearing about that story, but sadly it is not available at Domus Publica. Has Publius withdrawn it? If not, can anyone please point me to where I can find it?

I have a print-version of it available, but without permission to distribute I'm hesitant to give a link out.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Again, why wouldn't Windu be alive? Fuckin' Luke took more Force lightning than Windu did. Luke survived having a hand chopped off. Anakin was almost able to fly in AOTC. Why would this mark the end of Windu?

Its not as if we haven't observed openly different degrees of Force lightning before - the strikes against Luke are acknowledged by the novelisation to be torturing and they didn't make his skeleton glow. "Full power" Sith lightning - such as that that killed Windu and Vader, do cause skeletal glowing.

Furthermore, he represents thematically everything stupid and screwed up about the Old Jedi Order, his death is the beginning of Order 66 and the Great Purge for a reason. Furthermore, Yoda's "the last of the Jedi will you be" is certainly more violated by the return of Yoda's peer in the High Jedi Council (but refusing to contact him, like Obi-Wan, and various EU Jedi?) then by podunk Jedi survivors.

Why NOT have Solo STILL be a general? He was one in ROTJ.

Oh, there's no reason he shouldn't be a general, though his use as a general in ROTJ was kind of silly. Furthermore, your wankery has the special ops strike team-leading general from the front commanding Star Destroyers. Its not as if the SW canon doesn't awknowledge differences (in the OT especially) between naval and army officers, especially ones in as different specializations as Han and Ackbar.

Why WOULD'NT Chewie still be his trusted second?

Because he does not serve as Han's second-in-command? Who does he ever command? These terms have military and dictionary meaning you know. At best, he's Han's senior noncomm adviser/assistant. That's very different from being a second-in-command.

The remnant would use their Death Star to secure their space, until such a time came for them to attack the galaxy at large.

This is just wank, sorry, but it is. How does a fucking Death Star "secure space", versus the ENORMOUS opportunity cost in conventional warships? Why would the NR sit and let the Imperial Remnant build a WMD and just trust them not to use it until they choose to do so? This is like the New Republic in the EU knowing about the Yuuzhan Vong and totally shrugging it off because they haven't invaded quite yet. It reduces the good guys to an obscene and unpractical level of stupidity to advance an unnecessary plot device, and one already milked to death for audience recognition and instant suspense. It is a bad fucking idea just for the same reason as every EU rehash superweapon.

It makes no sense from a realistic conceptual point of view, it makes no sense from a thematic or plot point of view.

This would give more than ample story arcs WITHOUT a ton of Imperial crap that has bogged down the EU before Vong and Mandos took over. If the NR wanted to go in to Imperial held space because they have a Death Star, then so be it.

I'm sorry, but this is fucking stupid. The Rebellion as depicted in the movies clearly wanted to liberate the entire galaxy from the Empire as an institution and restore republican government. The idea they plausibly should sit on their hands from an either out-of-universe or in-universe point-of-view without the Emperor or a Death Star is fucking stupid. Wars take time, I disagree that fans have such low attention span or cannot identify a war story arc with the films unless they provide contrived plot excuses for conflict like the entire Yavin plot premise over and over again. And if that garbage is actually necessary (the financial returns suggest you're wrong, in which case I guess you just want rehashes, as long as its your wank and not KJA's), I would have rather they just write any more stories.

Seriously, Poe, are you jerking my chain? Do you really think this Waynified KJA material is a great idea?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I keep hearing about that story, but sadly it is not available at Domus Publica. Has Publius withdrawn it? If not, can anyone please point me to where I can find it?

I have a print-version of it available, but without permission to distribute I'm hesitant to give a link out.

What? He posted a link in our fanfic forum for download while he tries to get his original material back on the new format.

[phongn]

What? He posted a link in our fanfic forum for download while he tries to get his original material back on the new format.

Oh. Well, at any rate, I secured permission from him, so if anyone wants it, here's the link: http://www.csee.usf.edu/~pnguyen7/tow.pdf

Any errors in the typesetting are almost certainly mine and mine alone; please report any issues so I can fix them.

(Note: I am continually experimenting with XeTeX so I make periodic updates to it: the text body generally remains unchanged but I update it every so often as I learn more about typesetting in general.)

[Lord Poe]

Its not as if we haven't observed openly different degrees of Force lightning before - the strikes against Luke are acknowledged by the novelisation to be torturing and they didn't make his skeleton glow. "Full power" Sith lightning - such as that that killed Windu and Vader, do cause skeletal glowing.

Vader's breathing was overtaxed already from his fight with Luke. The processes in his suit that were destroyed is what killed him, not Force lightning. We didn't see him immediately bite the dust, did we? No. Luke carried him from the Emperor's fucking tower, the "highest" point on the Death Star, to the hangars below, had the big goodbye scene, etc. Windu was in full health, not dependant on any life support, and you're he's dead? Without seeing the body? Again, why? The basic staple the Star Wars movies are built on - the serials of the 30's - always worked that way.

Furthermore, he represents thematically everything stupid and screwed up about the Old Jedi Order, his death is the beginning of Order 66 and the Great Purge for a reason.

And what's that, exactly? Currently, Luke has been scraping the bottom of the galactic barrel to piece together every bit of Old Republic Jedi info he could find, and builds his NJO off of that. How am I so fucking off the mark? If everything OR is to be swept away for some nebulous reason, then why have Yoda and Obi-Wan train "The New Hope"? Obi-Wan and Yoda can adapt from failure, but Mace Windu can't? What's your reasoning? Obi-Wan and Yoda weren't rebels in the Jedi order; they were just as ingrained as Windu.

Furthermore, Yoda's "the last of the Jedi will you be" is certainly more violated by the return of Yoda's peer in the High Jedi Council (but refusing to contact him, like Obi-Wan, and various EU Jedi?) then by podunk Jedi survivors.

Is Windu still a Jedi while Palpatine and Vader are still alive? Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't. Why is it impossible for Windu to go into deep hiding as well? Clearly TYoda doesn't know everything, or he'd know what a genocidal maniac Anakin was in AOTC.

Oh, there's no reason he shouldn't be a general, though his use as a general in ROTJ was kind of silly. Furthermore, your wankery has the special ops strike team-leading general from the front commanding Star Destroyers. Its not as if the SW canon doesn't awknowledge differences (in the OT especially) between naval and army officers, especially ones in as different specializations as Han and Ackbar.

And? Endor was a specific ground assault Solo did because he wanted to be a part of the Rebellion. They weren't going to hand him a ship command in ROTJ. After the war was over, why NOT offer him a ship command as he was trained for before he became a smuggler?

Because he does not serve as Han's second-in-command? Who does he ever command? These terms have military and dictionary meaning you know. At best, he's Han's senior noncomm adviser/assistant. That's very different from being a second-in-command.

Don't be so fucking obtuse. I'd assume we weren't talking about the day after fucking Endor. We could be talking 5 years afterward. Who the fuck did Solo command before ROTJ?

This is just wank, sorry, but it is.

How is a fucking Death Star "wank" now? Have you forgotten what that term means? In early drafts, Lucas had mini Death Stars orbiting Coruscant!

How does a fucking Death Star "secure space", versus the ENORMOUS opportunity cost in conventional warships?

Oh, I don't know...because its worth over a THOUSAND fucking warships instead? That's without the plot-specific Achille's Heel, of course.

Why would the NR sit and let the Imperial Remnant build a WMD and just trust them not to use it until they choose to do so?

See, I'm proposing a SMARTER EU than we've had, where half the galaxy wouldn't know one was being built until it was finished. Those planets that still like Imperial rule instead of the NR flavor would be protected from being "liberated". You remember the majority of senators at the end of ROTS cheering for Imperial rule over the same ol Republic, don't you? The only dissenters were a small knot of people who began the Rebellion.

This is like the New Republic in the EU knowing about the Yuuzhan Vong and totally shrugging it off because they haven't invaded quite yet. It reduces the good guys to an obscene and unpractical level of stupidity to advance an unnecessary plot device, and one already milked to death for audience recognition and instant suspense. It is a bad fucking idea just for the same reason as every EU rehash superweapon.

Your analogy is flawed. The NR would of course be aware of the Remnant, as they were in the current EU. Why wouldn't they expect them to continue making WMD? The YV is an unknown[/] threat. I'm proposing that we remember how huge a fucking galaxy is, and every neighboring star system wn't hear the hammerfalls of the Imps building another Death Star.

It makes no sense from a realistic conceptual point of view, it makes no sense from a thematic or plot point of view.

Because you say so?

I'm sorry, but this is fucking stupid. The Rebellion as depicted in the movies clearly wanted to liberate the entire galaxy from the Empire as an institution and restore republican government. The idea they plausibly should sit on their hands from an either out-of-universe or in-universe point-of-view without the Emperor or a Death Star is fucking stupid.

Excuse me, but if you actually watched the end of ROTS, you would know that an Empire wasn't foisted on the galaxy out of nowhere. Palpatine proposed it, and was roundly cheered. I'm sure there were plenty of systems that weren't happy with that, and they would of course be the NR. So, are you saying the NR would foece pro-Imperial systems to join the NR? What have we there, then?

Wars take time, I disagree that fans have such low attention span or cannot identify a war story arc with the films unless they provide contrived plot excuses for conflict like the entire Yavin plot premise over and over again. And if that garbage is actually necessary (the financial returns suggest you're wrong, in which case I guess you just want rehashes, as long as its your wank and not KJA's), I would have rather they just write any more stories.

I'm not the one with the short attention span here, because you apparently have never seen the end of ROTS. If you think that at the end of ROTJ the entire galaxy wants yet another Republic, then you weren't paying attention. The lengthy struggle would be the NR trying to persuade the rest of the galaxy to join them. They don't get it handed to them on a silver platter, as you apparently envision. And quit mis-using "wank". Nowhere in my proposal have I "wanked" anything out. You simply haven't thought things through.

Seriously, Poe, are you jerking my chain? Do you really think this Waynified KJA material is a great idea?

You can quit patting yourself on the back now. That slam dunk only exists in your mind.

[Galvatron]

Wayne's post is the equivalent of "...then perhaps she will."

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its not as if we haven't observed openly different degrees of Force lightning before - the strikes against Luke are acknowledged by the novelisation to be torturing and they didn't make his skeleton glow. "Full power" Sith lightning - such as that that killed Windu and Vader, do cause skeletal glowing.

Vader's breathing was overtaxed already from his fight with Luke. The processes in his suit that were destroyed is what killed him, not Force lightning. We didn't see him immediately bite the dust, did we? No. Luke carried him from the Emperor's fucking tower, the "highest" point on the Death Star, to the hangars below, had the big goodbye scene, etc. Windu was in full health, not dependant on any life support, and you're he's dead? Without seeing the body? Again, why? The basic staple the Star Wars movies are built on - the serials of the 30's - always worked that way.

That changes nothing of the themes I discussed - not to mention the whole gravity of Anakin's betrayal is meaningless if Mace just decided to take a breather for a few decades. He beat Palpatine in a duel. What the fuck was he doing?! You must be joking.

Furthermore, he represents thematically everything stupid and screwed up about the Old Jedi Order, his death is the beginning of Order 66 and the Great Purge for a reason.

And what's that, exactly? Currently, Luke has been scraping the bottom of the galactic barrel to piece together every bit of Old Republic Jedi info he could find, and builds his NJO off of that. How am I so fucking off the mark? If everything OR is to be swept away for some nebulous reason, then why have Yoda and Obi-Wan train "The New Hope"?

Because THAT IS IN THE FUCKING MOVIES.

Obi-Wan and Yoda can adapt from failure, but Mace Windu can't? What's your reasoning? Obi-Wan and Yoda weren't rebels in the Jedi order; they were just as ingrained as Windu.

Yoda was not as enthusiastic about Jedi coups as Windu, he was alarmed by Jedi complacency and arrogance in AOTC, and he warned the prophecy could have been misread. So what does Windu do? Go ahead with the coup, is arrogant, sidelines and disrespects the subject of the same prophecy and then he sees he disobeyed him and came to intervene and expects him to do nothing. He's supposed to die, and usher in Anakin's betrayal and the Purge.

Furthermore, Yoda's "the last of the Jedi will you be" is certainly more violated by the return of Yoda's peer in the High Jedi Council (but refusing to contact him, like Obi-Wan, and various EU Jedi?) then by podunk Jedi survivors.

Is Windu still a Jedi while Palpatine and Vader are still alive? Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't. Why is it impossible for Windu to go into deep hiding as well? Clearly TYoda doesn't know everything, or he'd know what a genocidal maniac Anakin was in AOTC.

How are Yoda and Obi-Wan not Jedi? The point is that Yoda says that Luke will be the last after he dies, bringing back movie Jedi (since we're starting over according to you) needlessly violates his statements. And even defending the existing EU, bringing back no-namers is much different then, uh, THE ONE FUCKING JEDI WHO SUCCESSFULLY COULD DEFEAT PALPATINE. And for some reason, just chose not to make contact like all the other Jedi? Why? It stretches credulity past breaking.

Its terrible retread. Its uncreative. It diminishes Anakin's betrayal and undermines basically the most thematically important moment of the entire prequel trilogy. I really don't know what you're thinking.

Oh, there's no reason he shouldn't be a general, though his use as a general in ROTJ was kind of silly. Furthermore, your wankery has the special ops strike team-leading general from the front commanding Star Destroyers. Its not as if the SW canon doesn't awknowledge differences (in the OT especially) between naval and army officers, especially ones in as different specializations as Han and Ackbar.

And? Endor was a specific ground assault Solo did because he wanted to be a part of the Rebellion. They weren't going to hand him a ship command in ROTJ. After the war was over, why NOT offer him a ship command as he was trained for before he became a smuggler?

First of all, not all officers in the Navy are Sea/Space Warfare specialists. The fact he was involved with slaving has me doubting his credentials on space combat. Second, where is Ackbar going that Han is front and center as fucking Nelson? Third, it still stands to reason his only deployment as a GENERAL is a groundside spec ops command.

Because he does not serve as Han's second-in-command? Who does he ever command? These terms have military and dictionary meaning you know. At best, he's Han's senior noncomm adviser/assistant. That's very different from being a second-in-command.

Don't be so fucking obtuse. I'd assume we weren't talking about the day after fucking Endor. We could be talking 5 years afterward. Who the fuck did Solo command before ROTJ?

Who cares if never commanded anyone before ROTJ? He was a FUCKING OFFICER in the Navy, Chewie never commanded anyone ever and he was never an officer, and only served as a First Mate on a smuggler's ship. Why would he be an officer?

Is your goal to be less original than the existing EU?

This is just wank, sorry, but it is.

How is a fucking Death Star "wank" now? Have you forgotten what that term means? In early drafts, Lucas had mini Death Stars orbiting Coruscant!

Yeah, and why should our EU rely on the MOVIE REHASHING ENDLESSLY for plot devices. Lucas gets to play with the big stuff, and the EU does not. Moreover, he got a rid of the two Death Stars, didn't he? I suppose what filmmakers deliberately choose not to do in favor of things they decide are better is of no material in considering their value?

How does a fucking Death Star "secure space", versus the ENORMOUS opportunity cost in conventional warships?

Oh, I don't know...because its worth over a THOUSAND fucking warships instead? That's without the plot-specific Achille's Heel, of course.

Why would the Death Star be more effective in combat than its weight in warships? Does it occur to you they chose to build it because it was more effective at, I don't know, cracking real tough nuts and blowing up planets like Alderaan than its equivalent in warships? Why do you have this simplistic thinking? It doesn't magically defeat thermodynamics. Its not magically better than conventional warships; Dr. Saxton's own figures scale up directly from Acclamator to Death Star. There's nothing that says the Death Star is uniquely powerful relative to its equivalency in normal warships. Quite the opposite.

Why would the NR sit and let the Imperial Remnant build a WMD and just trust them not to use it until they choose to do so?

See, I'm proposing a SMARTER EU than we've had, where half the galaxy wouldn't know one was being built until it was finished.

YOU MEAN LIKE THE FUCKING MOVIES? ARE YOU SHITTING ME???

Those planets that still like Imperial rule instead of the NR flavor would be protected from being "liberated". You remember the majority of senators at the end of ROTS cheering for Imperial rule over the same ol Republic, don't you? The only dissenters were a small knot of people who began the Rebellion.

Jesus Christ on a fucking pogostick. You don't suppose that 20 years on the Rebellion's strength has gone up, you know, like the movie portrays, from fucking talk to battle fleets??? Like GL portrays in the goddamn parades? The Empire may have had support but why should the New Republic be impotent and unable to liberate them conventionally? How is a Death Star more capable of defending a spread-out area on the order of millions or billions of worlds than its equivalent in small individual ships? You have not thought this out.

This is like the New Republic in the EU knowing about the Yuuzhan Vong and totally shrugging it off because they haven't invaded quite yet. It reduces the good guys to an obscene and unpractical level of stupidity to advance an unnecessary plot device, and one already milked to death for audience recognition and instant suspense. It is a bad fucking idea just for the same reason as every EU rehash superweapon.

Your analogy is flawed. The NR would of course be aware of the Remnant, as they were in the current EU. Why wouldn't they expect them to continue making WMD? The YV is an unknown[/] threat. I'm proposing that we remember how huge a fucking galaxy is, and every neighboring star system wn't hear the hammerfalls of the Imps building another Death Star.

You mean like the Rebels found out about the Death Star I when they were a bunch of terrorists with them still waiting "until this station is fully operational"? You still don't get why a singular Death Star is much shittier for space patrol and DEFENSE than its equivalent in many ships which can be organized in one place or all over as you see fit. It is more strategically flexible.

It makes no sense from a realistic conceptual point of view, it makes no sense from a thematic or plot point of view.

Because you say so?

No, because you clearly have not throught through even something as simple as the relative flexibility between a single huge ship and its equivalent weight and firepower in many ships, which can be spread out or concentrated as is required. The big ship cannot. Because you haven't thought through the movie calc numbers and the Saxton ICS numbers and why the Death Star is not special except for the size of the implementation.

I'm sorry, but this is fucking stupid. The Rebellion as depicted in the movies clearly wanted to liberate the entire galaxy from the Empire as an institution and restore republican government. The idea they plausibly should sit on their hands from an either out-of-universe or in-universe point-of-view without the Emperor or a Death Star is fucking stupid.

Excuse me, but if you actually watched the end of ROTS, you would know that an Empire wasn't foisted on the galaxy out of nowhere. Palpatine proposed it, and was roundly cheered. I'm sure there were plenty of systems that weren't happy with that, and they would of course be the NR. So, are you saying the NR would foece pro-Imperial systems to join the NR? What have we there, then?

OF COURSE. ITS CALLED A FUCKING CIVIL WAR. ARE YOU SHITTING ME? Is the "Rebellion against the Empire" just going to believe the unrepresented fascist-ruled worlds are in compliance because the Empire says so? Are they going to sit and try and talk the rest of the galaxy into joining and not press the offensive against an obviously militaristic and aggressive regime? This is a hundred times more naive than any of the most contrived and hackneyed portrayals of NR incompetence.

I suppose you hate your American nation for having invaded and moved on majority loyalist British colonies during the Revolutionary War, too.

Wars take time, I disagree that fans have such low attention span or cannot identify a war story arc with the films unless they provide contrived plot excuses for conflict like the entire Yavin plot premise over and over again. And if that garbage is actually necessary (the financial returns suggest you're wrong, in which case I guess you just want rehashes, as long as its your wank and not KJA's), I would have rather they just write any more stories.

I'm not the one with the short attention span here, because you apparently have never seen the end of ROTS. If you think that at the end of ROTJ the entire galaxy wants yet another Republic, then you weren't paying attention. The lengthy struggle would be the NR trying to persuade the rest of the galaxy to join them. They don't get it handed to them on a silver platter, as you apparently envision. And quit mis-using "wank". Nowhere in my proposal have I "wanked" anything out. You simply haven't thought things through.

Yes I have, I have discussed with Publius and many other posters realistic and general conceptual understanding of the post-ROTJ Civil Wars. The Civil War would continue until one side threw in the towel. How do most civil wars you know about go on? This is all political and scientifically naive wank. I'm sorry, but it is. I suppose because there were happy German Nazis when Hitler signed the Enabling Act, that means there was no resistence or anti-Nazis. I suppose the support for leftists against the Tsar and his regime means that everyone loved the Bolsheviks 20 years later, when Stalin was butchering them. Your grasp of history and politics and the OBVIOUS thematic intent of the films is breathtaking.

[Havok]

Couple of things

General Solo turned down the command of the fighter wing that led the attack on the DS that General Calrissian took. And based on ROTJ, special ops ground attacks are NOT Han's strong point. Moving him back into space and giving him command there makes sense. He is a SPACE PILOT after all, maybe the best in the Rebellion.

There is absolutely no reason that Mace couldn't still be alive and simply in hiding as Yoda was. Hell, you could make a case that Mace realized the same thing that Yoda did after he got his ass handed to him by the Sith. It's time to call it a day.
And yeah yeah yeah, Force lightning. Luke took... IIRC because I timed it, *60+ seconds of "Now young Skywalker, you WILL DIE." Force Lightning and was able to recover. Vader, who arguably was the most susceptible to it, took almost IIRC *10+ seconds at this same full power and he lived long enough, like Poe said, to get down from the top of the DSII to the trench hanger and was still alive.
Yoda probably took Palpatine's hardest hit he could muster in his office and was merely stunned. Even Anakin, when he was a whiny padawan and was at no where near full strength was only knocked unconscious for a few moments by Dooku.
Really, we haven't seen the lethality of Force Lightning any where. Mace, assuming he could keep his witts about him could have caught a flying taxi for all we know. It's just as likely as him being dead.

*I'm going to check on the actual times.

[Anguirus]

I'm sorry, but if Mace Windu was able to survive the shock of his life, subsequent maiming, full-blast Sith power, being hurled out a window god only knows how high up, and all this AFTER a physically and mentally exhausting duel with the Dark Lord of the Sith, then he would rightfully be called the most wanked character in the long and illustrious history of wanking.

Jedi can do many things, but they do not fly. And Mace Windu should not learn to do so in the very instant of an agonizing, disfiguring defeat.

(Side points: a) if Windu had lived through the movies, then every single Jedi major character would have lived through the Purge, diluting its impact somewhat. b) Windu's concentration was clearly shot to hell by Anakin's betrayal, and even the most absurd, superhero-ish portrayals of Jedi show them as requiring concentration to accomplish anything superhuman.)

[Havok]

I'm sorry, but if Mace Windu was able to survive the shock of his life, subsequent maiming, full-blast Sith power, being hurled out a window god only knows how high up, and all this AFTER a physically and mentally exhausting duel with the Dark Lord of the Sith, then he would rightfully be called the most wanked character in the long and illustrious history of wanking.

Well first, he dueled then he was maimed then shocked. Try to at least get the order right.
As I stated, these so called full power Force Lightning attacks, do not instantly kill, not even someone dependent on electrical life support systems. He is the second most powerful of the Jedi Council and supposedly one of the Order's most fierce warriors. There is no reason to say his survival would be wanked.

Jedi can do many things, but they do not fly. And Mace Windu should not learn to do so in the very instant of an agonizing, disfiguring defeat.

No, but they can do exactly what was needed for Mace to survive that fall. See Anakin, the PADAWAN in AOTC.

(Side points: a) if Windu had lived through the movies, then every single Jedi major character would have lived through the Purge, diluting its impact somewhat.

Why? The major and minor Jedi were caught by surprise and blasted to fucking death. Mace, was not caught by a surprise attack. In fact in the fight with Palpatine IIRC, he was as open to the Force as he had ever been. Part of a Jedi's training is to shut out pain. Mace was second only to Yoda, it is absolutely no stretch to think that he recovered from the FL as fast as Yoda, Luke or Anakin.

b) Windu's concentration was clearly shot to hell by Anakin's betrayal, and even the most absurd, superhero-ish portrayals of Jedi show them as requiring concentration to accomplish anything superhuman.)

OK, so his concentration has shot to hell, but the moment the FL stopped what was keeping him from regaining it. Only Anakin had been knocked out cold because of FL, and again, he was a Padawan at the time AND it was due more to his being Force thrown into a fucking wall at the same time. Yoda, Luke, and Vader, who had metal at the base of his brain, never lost consciousness. Why should we assume Mace did?

[Darth Fanboy]

Again, why wouldn't Windu be alive? Fuckin' Luke took more Force lightning than Windu did. Luke survived having a hand chopped off. Anakin was almost able to fly in AOTC. Why would this mark the end of Windu?

I can believe Windu surviving the fall OR the lightning OR the amputation. Just not all three at the same time, which unfortunately for him was exactly what happened in RoTS.

In ESB Luke survived the amputation and his leap into the depths of Cloud City, but he wasn't tossed over the edge the way Windu was. Also, Note that Sidious himself was unable to just fly back up the shaft of the Death Star II after being tossed by Vader.

Speaking of which, Luke survived in RoTJ only because of Vader, i'm sure if he had been tossed into that pit he would have died just like Windu.

I like your idea of a new mentor for Luke and the NJO, I just think that reviving Windu's character is too much of a stretch.

Although it would be funny to read a scene where Mace looks at Luke and says "Your dad cut off my hand so the Emperor could knock me out a window, what makes you think I should teach you anything?".

[Darth Fanboy]

No, but they can do exactly what was needed for Mace to survive that fall. See Anakin, the PADAWAN in AOTC.

What was Anakin's physical state when this happened? Had he just battled against an opponent of great strength in the duel of his life and then been blasted by Force lightning? I doubt Anakin could have done this later in the movie in the aftermath of his fight with Dooku.

Why? The major and minor Jedi were caught by surprise and blasted to fucking death. Mace, was not caught by a surprise attack. In fact in the fight with Palpatine IIRC, he was as open to the Force as he had ever been. Part of a Jedi's training is to shut out pain. Mace was second only to Yoda, it is absolutely no stretch to think that he recovered from the FL as fast as Yoda, Luke or Anakin.

I agree that it's not stretch to think that he recovered fast, but if he was plummeting at terminal velocity to the Coruscant plaza below then its also possible that by the time he recovered there really wasn't much he could do to keep from crashing into the pavement isn't it?

OK, so his concentration has shot to hell, but the moment the FL stopped what was keeping him from regaining it. Only Anakin had been knocked out cold because of FL, and again, he was a Padawan at the time AND it was due more to his being Force thrown into a fucking wall at the same time. Yoda, Luke, and Vader, who had metal at the base of his brain, never lost consciousness. Why should we assume Mace did?

Page 335 of the RoTS Novelization

Dark lightning blasted away his universe.
He fell forever.

I take away from these two lines that Windu is, at the very least, not entirely lucid.

[Darth Fanboy]

Mace, assuming he could keep his witts about him could have caught a flying taxi for all we know. It's just as likely as him being dead.

Except for the fact that, according to the SW Databank

The final blast bodily lifted him into the air, sending his form hurling into the Coruscant skies, to crash lifelessly somewhere in the vast cityscape below.

If I am incorrect though and the Databank's entry isn't a definitive description then I apologize. But it is my understanding that what it says in there is canon.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Couple of things

General Solo turned down the command of the fighter wing that led the attack on the DS that General Calrissian took. And based on ROTJ, special ops ground attacks are NOT Han's strong point. Moving him back into space and giving him command there makes sense. He is a SPACE PILOT after all, maybe the best in the Rebellion.

Being a naval aviator does not equal being a competent admiral, especially if your space warfare hardly operates around carrier ops (the fact they apparently have a seperate rank structure should be a clue - and don't give me Wedge Antilles - if Poe's goal is to redo everything, it should try to make sense on its own merit, and thus BE BETTER than the EU as it exists, not stoop to its tropes and simplifications and mistakes).

There is absolutely no reason that Mace couldn't still be alive and simply in hiding as Yoda was. Hell, you could make a case that Mace realized the same thing that Yoda did after he got his ass handed to him by the Sith. It's time to call it a day.
And yeah yeah yeah, Force lightning. Luke took... IIRC because I timed it, *60+ seconds of "Now young Skywalker, you WILL DIE." Force Lightning and was able to recover. Vader, who arguably was the most susceptible to it, took almost IIRC *10+ seconds at this same full power and he lived long enough, like Poe said, to get down from the top of the DSII to the trench hanger and was still alive.
Yoda probably took Palpatine's hardest hit he could muster in his office and was merely stunned. Even Anakin, when he was a whiny padawan and was at no where near full strength was only knocked unconscious for a few moments by Dooku.
Really, we haven't seen the lethality of Force Lightning any where. Mace, assuming he could keep his witts about him could have caught a flying taxi for all we know. It's just as likely as him being dead.

I don't need to show that its a totally impossible idea canonically. I only have to show its not a logical and necessary outcome of the films (and the EU should not reverse the film's intent where possible, Poe's imaginary EU or otherwise), and that it is not a desirable or intelligent expansion of a story. If he's so fucked up by his survival, why bring him back at all? The first thing Luke should do is beat his ass for sitting out the war while everyone else died, when he was the only one who previously could manhandle Palpatine mano e mano. If he was useless for the OT and hid from the surviving OJO, he should not be available for the NJO.

Prospective EU concepts need not be totally impossible to be unreasonable, they just need to deviate from accepted source materials unreasonably, and be poorly concieved and bad ideas to be rejected. This idea that I must render every idea Poe et al throws at me totally impossible is stupid - they are asserted THEIR IDEAS ARE BETTER THAN WHAT WE GOT, AND ARE WORTH THROWING EVERYTHING OUT, AND BETTER THAN CONCIEVABLE ALTERNATIVES.

[Anguirus]

See Anakin, the PADAWAN in AOTC.

See Obi-Wan, his master who flew an airspeeder down to where he was falling and matched velocities to save him.

Jedi can slow and direct their falls, but they cannot fly. Anakin would have been dead without Obi-Wan and the speeder present.

[RogueIce]

Although it would be funny to read a scene where Mace looks at Luke and says "Your dad cut off my hand so the Emperor could knock me out a window, what makes you think I should teach you anything?".

If Mace were to survive, I would see that as probably the best way to handle it. As a bitter, reclusive former Jedi Master (hence explaining him sitting out the war).

I mean really, why would he be eager to help Luke? He didn't really like Anakin to begin with; I'm pretty sure the kid chopping his hands off so Sidious could blast him out a window didn't help any. And I doubt Luke "I've totally forgiven my father" Skywalker is going to be treated any better.

[Crown]

I'm going to preface this with saying that I agree 100% with Illuminatus Primus on this, bringing Windu back is not, in my opinion a good idea, but ...

I only have to show its not a logical and necessary outcome of the films (and the EU should not reverse the film's intent where possible, Poe's imaginary EU or otherwise),

BWWWAHAHAHAHA!

You MUST be taking the piss here. Mr 'I defend Dark Empire to the death and blame everything on Zhan' just spoke what is argueably the number 1 reason why people HATE DE? That Luke going over to the Dark Side in DE, after totally rejecting it in RotJ completely negated the ending of the last movie?

C'mon, seriously, Wayne, Primus, own up, have you guys have swapped accounts, haven't you?



Oh and;

See Obi-Wan, his master who flew an airspeeder down to where he was falling and matched velocities to save him.

Sure, can you give me a time code where this imaginary event took place, because I've seemed to have missed it. You're thinking of Anakin catching Obi-Wan, not the other way around.

Jedi can slow and direct their falls, but they cannot fly. Anakin would have been dead without Obi-Wan and the speeder present.

FAIL

Jedi can survive terminal velocity as shown in the highest level of canon.

[Vympel]

Vader's breathing was overtaxed already from his fight with Luke. The processes in his suit that were destroyed is what killed him, not Force lightning. We didn't see him immediately bite the dust, did we? No. Luke carried him from the Emperor's fucking tower, the "highest" point on the Death Star, to the hangars below, had the big goodbye scene, etc.

The act of carrying him from the tower to the hangars isn't really much of a big deal - we know from the novel that the hangar they came from leads directly to an elevator going right up to the Emperor's tower.

[Anguirus]

Ouch, that's totally my bad.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm going to preface this with saying that I agree 100% with Illuminatus Primus on this, bringing Windu back is not, in my opinion a good idea, but ...

I only have to show its not a logical and necessary outcome of the films (and the EU should not reverse the film's intent where possible, Poe's imaginary EU or otherwise),

BWWWAHAHAHAHA!

You MUST be taking the piss here. Mr 'I defend Dark Empire to the death and blame everything on Zhan' just spoke what is argueably the number 1 reason why people HATE DE? That Luke going over to the Dark Side in DE, after totally rejecting it in RotJ completely negated the ending of the last movie?

I don't always defend DE. I just point out that if Lucas likes it (and he does) and distributed and approved it when there were practically no EU projects to boot, than the smarmy purist, "well I know that it contradicts the theme [better than GL]" is stupid. Furthermore, just because I like it in one case which is canonical and I defend from selective crap like "We should throw out DE and DE alone!" doesn't mean IF were ARE TOTALLY STARTING OVER we should do the same things again. If people complain about that, shouldn't that be the kind of stuff we avoid? We're talking hypotheticals here.

And Zahn has consistently done better and more interesting since his nadir with the Hand of Thrawn duology. I just don't like the double-standard of silly plot devices and pissing on other authors that is a-okay from Zahn but terrible from other authors. Its not his saga. But since he's definitely improved, I don't bring it up anymore.

[Galvatron]

I don't always defend DE. I just point out that if Lucas likes it (and he does) and distributed and approved it when there were practically no EU projects to boot, than the smarmy purist, "well I know that it contradicts the theme [better than GL]" is stupid.

What if I smarmily suggest that Lucas is simply out of his mind for liking it?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't always defend DE. I just point out that if Lucas likes it (and he does) and distributed and approved it when there were practically no EU projects to boot, than the smarmy purist, "well I know that it contradicts the theme [better than GL]" is stupid.

What if I smarmily suggest that Lucas is simply out of his mind for liking it?

It has no context in this discussion, because we're talking about how to redo the EU, which necessarily kowtows to Lucas' opinion and vision. What you're talking about, is your personal vision of SW.