General idiocy concerning SW vs. ST

SWvST: the subject of the main site.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Dark Hellion
Permanent n00b
Posts: 3554
Joined: 2002-08-25 07:56pm

General idiocy concerning SW vs. ST

Post by Dark Hellion »

Since the former thread has been locked, I thought I would recreate it, as well as adding a small anecdotal account of why the stereotypical "trektard" can think like he/she does.

In my experiences dealing with trektards, fundamentalists, and idiot conservatives I have noticed a similar set of axiomatic assumptions that color their debate scheme and thinking. The first and foremost axiomatic thought is a deep equation of factual correctness to moral good, factual incorrectness with moral wrong/bad, and commutatively the equation of the moral good with factual correctness. Secondly, they primarily assume that they are morally good. When combined with the first they are required to rationally assume that they are factually correct, because to say that they are factual incorrect is to say they are morally bad. This is why continuous disagreement that they have no canned rebuttal for makes them extremely angry, and they view it as combat. To them, being proven incorrect is a personal attack. You are saying they are bad. Why such belief sets seem to go with the three groups above I haven't really devoted much thought to yet, but I have little experience dealing with all three, and perhaps others with better experience could help color this theory a little.
A teenage girl is just a teenage boy who can get laid.
-GTO

We're not just doing this for money; we're doing this for a shitload of money!
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

There's definitely some truth to that: many Trekkies seem to feel that there is some moral issue involved in upholding the supremacy of Star Trek, presumably because Star Trek supposedly promotes enlightened morality (and we know it's enlightened because Picard says so).

Personally however, I still think that simple tribalism plays a larger role in their thinking. They think there are teams, and they're at war. For them, it's all about loyalty to their group, everything else be damned. That's why the worst Trekkies seem to have a permanent love-in, and you don't see much in-fighting among them.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Peptuck
Is Not A Moderator
Posts: 1487
Joined: 2007-07-09 12:22am

Post by Peptuck »

Darth Wong wrote: Personally however, I still think that simple tribalism plays a larger role in their thinking. They think there are teams, and they're at war.
This is not war. This is pest control.

Sorry, couldn't help it.
X-COM: Defending Earth by blasting the shit out of it.

Writers are people, and people are stupid. So, a large chunk of them have the IQ of beach pebbles. ~fgalkin

You're complaining that the story isn't the kind you like. That's like me bitching about the lack of ninjas in Robin Hood. ~CaptainChewbacca
BountyHunterSAx
Padawan Learner
Posts: 401
Joined: 2007-10-09 11:20pm

Post by BountyHunterSAx »

I recently had a chance to watch Star Wars Vi in full HD (a treat that I would highly recommend to anyone able to indulge..though III is better for the purposes) and it left me with a new appreciation for the power of the TL.

I will freely admit that when I'd first seen the Star Wars series as a kid blasters and TL shots seemed like little more than pretty 'laser-guns' - the equivalent of a phaser. But upon-re-watching the Battle of Endor I just gained a new appreciation of the effectiveness of TL shots. We literally see trees blowing apart and left charred and flaming. Small wonder the whole "hiding behind packing-crates" argument is such a sticky-wicket for those who seek to wank ST weaponry.

-AHMAD
"Wallahu a'lam"
skies
Youngling
Posts: 97
Joined: 2007-10-24 07:07pm

Re: General idiocy concerning SW vs. ST

Post by skies »

Dark Hellion wrote:Since the former thread has been locked, I thought I would recreate it, as well as adding a small anecdotal account of why the stereotypical "trektard" can think like he/she does.

In my experiences dealing with trektards, fundamentalists, and idiot conservatives I have noticed a similar set of axiomatic assumptions that color their debate scheme and thinking. The first and foremost axiomatic thought is a deep equation of factual correctness to moral good, factual incorrectness with moral wrong/bad, and commutatively the equation of the moral good with factual correctness. Secondly, they primarily assume that they are morally good. When combined with the first they are required to rationally assume that they are factually correct, because to say that they are factual incorrect is to say they are morally bad. This is why continuous disagreement that they have no canned rebuttal for makes them extremely angry, and they view it as combat. To them, being proven incorrect is a personal attack. You are saying they are bad. Why such belief sets seem to go with the three groups above I haven't really devoted much thought to yet, but I have little experience dealing with all three, and perhaps others with better experience could help color this theory a little.
Too true. I've noticed that denial of reality is a new wrinkle in this sort of behavior. Just think of Bush Co's 'we define reality' attitude which is basically the belief that reality HAS to conform to their world view, and any facts that don't fit are to be ignored. It's an intellectually lazy mind set that is all too apparent in your average Trektard. I.e. It doesn't matter how powerful Turbo-lasers are, their still just lasers so they can't penetrate our navigational deflectors! :?
User avatar
Darth Ruinus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1400
Joined: 2007-04-02 12:02pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Darth Ruinus »

The space portion of the Battle of Endor is really great, I noticed a TL hit an ISD (in the background, when Ackbar says something about protecting the starfighters) and it goes up in flames.

That, and I just love Star Wars all around. Except the crap idiocy in the EU.
"I don't believe in man made global warming because God promised to never again destroy the earth with water. He sent the rainbow as a sign."
- Sean Hannity Forums user Avi

"And BTW the concept of carbon based life is only a hypothesis based on the abiogensis theory, and there is no clear evidence for it."
-Mazen707 informing me about the facts on carbon-based life.
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

What's really wierd is the projectionism, I was on ST.com talking about China becoming a Superpower and Dr. Gojira (The dumbass troll from those ST.com Debates that refused to actually make or rebut any points and would refuse to shut the fuck up) comes in attempting to rebut me but goes on to start talking about Star Wars, then later he says I'm the one who brought it up. :roll:
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
Peptuck
Is Not A Moderator
Posts: 1487
Joined: 2007-07-09 12:22am

Re: General idiocy concerning SW vs. ST

Post by Peptuck »

Dark Hellion wrote:Why such belief sets seem to go with the three groups above I haven't really devoted much thought to yet, but I have little experience dealing with all three, and perhaps others with better experience could help color this theory a little.
Its not limited to those three groups in particular; it happens to anyone who is a sufficient believer of a particular dogma or doctrine, or to anyone who combines both idiocy and fannish tendencies. Its this sort of mentality that results in pretty much any kind of fandom flamewar and why some vs. arguments get very, very bitter.
X-COM: Defending Earth by blasting the shit out of it.

Writers are people, and people are stupid. So, a large chunk of them have the IQ of beach pebbles. ~fgalkin

You're complaining that the story isn't the kind you like. That's like me bitching about the lack of ninjas in Robin Hood. ~CaptainChewbacca
User avatar
Darth Nostril
Jedi Knight
Posts: 986
Joined: 2008-04-25 02:46pm
Location: Totally normal island

Post by Darth Nostril »

I cannot for the life of me remember where I read this to, maybe buried deep in one of Tom Clancy's novels, but it struck a chord and defined all forum interactions from there-on

Paraphrased from memory

"you can destroy all his beliefs and arguments, but you have not destroyed the person, and so they will continue to believe"

At first I thought that was total wank ... but over the next few years of interaction on several Poser sites I came to realise it was very true ... people draw battle lines that they will not cross, regardless of the facts .. they hold to their beliefs
User avatar
Straha
Lord of the Spam
Posts: 8198
Joined: 2002-07-21 11:59pm
Location: NYC

Re: General idiocy concerning SW vs. ST

Post by Straha »

Peptuck wrote:
Dark Hellion wrote:Why such belief sets seem to go with the three groups above I haven't really devoted much thought to yet, but I have little experience dealing with all three, and perhaps others with better experience could help color this theory a little.
Its not limited to those three groups in particular; it happens to anyone who is a sufficient believer of a particular dogma or doctrine, or to anyone who combines both idiocy and fannish tendencies. Its this sort of mentality that results in pretty much any kind of fandom flamewar and why some vs. arguments get very, very bitter.
Just look at politics in any country. If you're part of the "other side" you're evil and you've planned everything to go wrong from day 1 for your own personal pleasure. Whereas if you're part of the good team you can do no wrong, and everything bad that happens is other people's fault.
'After 9/11, it was "You're with us or your with the terrorists." Now its "You're with Straha or you support racism."' ' - The Romulan Republic

'You're a bully putting on an air of civility while saying that everything western and/or capitalistic must be bad, and a lot of other posters (loomer, Stas Bush, Gandalf) are also going along with it for their own personal reasons (Stas in particular is looking through rose colored glasses)' - Darth Yan
User avatar
Zablorg
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1864
Joined: 2007-09-27 05:16am

Post by Zablorg »

This mentality is the same for any fanaticals. That "Evil Obama" thing that Poe linked us to? I signed up for it, and all these emails are acting like it's some sort of cult instead of a political preference.
Jupiter Oak Evolution!
User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4323
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: Spacedock

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

And there are morons like Jay who lurk for several days then spout random crap that has little to do with the topic at hand and expect to debate it. He takes shifting goalposts to a whole new level. And he also engages in Kosh-like tactics by accusing opposing members of being duals when he has no answer to their arguments :lol:
User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4323
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: Spacedock

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

It was only a matter of time, latest claim from the Trektards:
Maybe the phasers have a HUD that is advanced enough that the phasers no longer need sights.
Stupid :wanker:

Image
User avatar
Finagle
Redshirt
Posts: 39
Joined: 2008-04-09 01:17pm
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Post by Finagle »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:It was only a matter of time, latest claim from the Trektards:
Maybe the phasers have a HUD that is advanced enough that the phasers no longer need sights.
Wow. Stormtroopers have a HUD in their helmets (well, they call it MFTAS which, IIRC, stands for Multi-Frequency Target Aquisition System, but it's essentially a sensor/HUD combo), and they still have physical sights on their weapons. I wonder why? Oh gee, maybe it's because they want to still be able to fire with some degree of accuracy in case there's any problem with their HUD (battle damage or anything else).

Aside from that, I haven't noticed Federation redshirts using any sort of visor or anything else that a HUD could be displayed upon. Unless they're projecting it directly into the eye, but even then they'd need some sort of equipment set up at an angle that would allow it to project into the eye. Or perhaps all Starfleet personnel are required to have cybernetic eyes implanted in order to sync them up with phasers for a HUD :roll:
Yes, Mr. Death...
I'll play you a game!
But not CHESS!!!
Bah... Fooey!
My game is JARTS!!!
User avatar
Aratech
Jedi Knight
Posts: 627
Joined: 2006-11-04 04:11pm
Location: Right behind you

Post by Aratech »

Finagle wrote:
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:It was only a matter of time, latest claim from the Trektards:
Maybe the phasers have a HUD that is advanced enough that the phasers no longer need sights.
Wow. Stormtroopers have a HUD in their helmets (well, they call it MFTAS which, IIRC, stands for Multi-Frequency Target Aquisition System, but it's essentially a sensor/HUD combo), and they still have physical sights on their weapons. I wonder why? Oh gee, maybe it's because they want to still be able to fire with some degree of accuracy in case there's any problem with their HUD (battle damage or anything else).

Aside from that, I haven't noticed Federation redshirts using any sort of visor or anything else that a HUD could be displayed upon. Unless they're projecting it directly into the eye, but even then they'd need some sort of equipment set up at an angle that would allow it to project into the eye. Or perhaps all Starfleet personnel are required to have cybernetic eyes implanted in order to sync them up with phasers for a HUD :roll:

The targeting system must have also been designed by moles, given how often they're observed to miss, even at spitting distance. :lol:
"Impossible! Lasers can't even harm out deflector dish! Clearly these foes are masters of illusion!' 'But sir, my console says we-' 'MASTERS OF ILLUSION! - General Schatten
User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Darth Servo »

Finagle wrote:
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:It was only a matter of time, latest claim from the Trektards:
Maybe the phasers have a HUD that is advanced enough that the phasers no longer need sights.
Wow. Stormtroopers have a HUD in their helmets (well, they call it MFTAS which, IIRC, stands for Multi-Frequency Target Aquisition System, but it's essentially a sensor/HUD combo), and they still have physical sights on their weapons. I wonder why? Oh gee, maybe it's because they want to still be able to fire with some degree of accuracy in case there's any problem with their HUD (battle damage or anything else).

Aside from that, I haven't noticed Federation redshirts using any sort of visor or anything else that a HUD could be displayed upon. Unless they're projecting it directly into the eye, but even then they'd need some sort of equipment set up at an angle that would allow it to project into the eye. Or perhaps all Starfleet personnel are required to have cybernetic eyes implanted in order to sync them up with phasers for a HUD :roll:
Nothing new. Trektards were claiming the yellow flip-up pannel on the type 3 phaser rifle was a sophisticated sensor system years ago.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
User avatar
Aratech
Jedi Knight
Posts: 627
Joined: 2006-11-04 04:11pm
Location: Right behind you

Post by Aratech »

In spite of the fact that they're only observed to use it half the time, and I don't think we ever see such a readout when seeing it from the POV of the redshirt in question? :roll:
"Impossible! Lasers can't even harm out deflector dish! Clearly these foes are masters of illusion!' 'But sir, my console says we-' 'MASTERS OF ILLUSION! - General Schatten
User avatar
Finagle
Redshirt
Posts: 39
Joined: 2008-04-09 01:17pm
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Post by Finagle »

[quote="Aratech]The targeting system must have also been designed by moles, given how often they're observed to miss, even at spitting distance. :lol:[/quote]
Nah, just a faulty batch or two of clones... Same problem that afflicted the Asshole family in Space Balls I presume :P
Yes, Mr. Death...
I'll play you a game!
But not CHESS!!!
Bah... Fooey!
My game is JARTS!!!
User avatar
Aratech
Jedi Knight
Posts: 627
Joined: 2006-11-04 04:11pm
Location: Right behind you

Post by Aratech »

Finagle wrote:
Aratech wrote:The targeting system must have also been designed by moles, given how often they're observed to miss, even at spitting distance. :lol:
Nah, just a faulty batch or two of clones... Same problem that afflicted the Asshole family in Space Balls I presume :P
Dude, the Spaceballs were more competent than the feddies, if only because they had seat belts, redundant safety protocols, and intelligently designed weaponry. :lol:

Which is really, really sad when you think about the fact that the Space Ball race was pretty much engineered to be the most incompetent goons around
"Impossible! Lasers can't even harm out deflector dish! Clearly these foes are masters of illusion!' 'But sir, my console says we-' 'MASTERS OF ILLUSION! - General Schatten
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

I love the way Trektards claim that phasers have the most fantastic imaginable technology for helping them hit targets ... and then shrug when you point out how often the Feddies miss targets. What the fuck is all of this imaginary technology good for, then?

It's amazing what a complex set of assumptions one can construct from the simple fact that the visual beam doesn't always line up with the axis of the weapon.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Peptuck
Is Not A Moderator
Posts: 1487
Joined: 2007-07-09 12:22am

Post by Peptuck »

Aratech wrote:
Finagle wrote:
Aratech wrote:The targeting system must have also been designed by moles, given how often they're observed to miss, even at spitting distance. :lol:
Nah, just a faulty batch or two of clones... Same problem that afflicted the Asshole family in Space Balls I presume :P
Dude, the Spaceballs were more competent than the feddies, if only because they had seat belts, redundant safety protocols, and intelligently designed weaponry. :lol:

Which is really, really sad when you think about the fact that the Space Ball race was pretty much engineered to be the most incompetent goons around
Should probably start a thread on Spacebattles to see who would win in a hypothetical battle between Redshirts and Spaceballs.

Its rather striking when you consider that the badguys who are supposed to be a parody of Star Wars' mooks are apparently smarter and better armed than Federation regulars. I mean, they actually bother locking doors and require biometric scanners to bypass the locks, which is waaaaaaaaaaay more than one can say for Starfleet.
X-COM: Defending Earth by blasting the shit out of it.

Writers are people, and people are stupid. So, a large chunk of them have the IQ of beach pebbles. ~fgalkin

You're complaining that the story isn't the kind you like. That's like me bitching about the lack of ninjas in Robin Hood. ~CaptainChewbacca
Swindle1984
Jedi Master
Posts: 1049
Joined: 2008-03-23 02:46pm
Location: Texas

Post by Swindle1984 »

The only in-universe explanation I can think of for why phasers sometimes shoot off-axis (or even change where the beam is hitting without the user moving the weapon itself) is that the firing stud has some directional thing built in, like the volume/scroll control on an iPod. Besides the horrible ergonomics and lack of any sort of sighting mechanism, this might explain why feddies miss so often; their thumb slips on the firing button and the beam moves off axis as it fires.

It's a reasonable theory, though obviously there's no statements regarding the existence of such a thing in the canon. Better still, it's far less nonsensical than any of the retarded uber-targeting computer/HUD/tricorder trektards wank about.
Your ad here.
User avatar
Crayz9000
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 7329
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:39pm
Location: Improbably superpositioned
Contact:

Post by Crayz9000 »

I still prefer the shorter explanation of "without sights, a weapon is pretty close to impossible to aim."
A Tribute to Stupidity: The Robert Scott Anderson Archive (currently offline)
John Hansen - Slightly Insane Bounty Hunter - ASVS Vets' Assoc. Class of 2000
HAB Cryptanalyst | WG - Intergalactic Alliance and Spoof Author | BotM | Cybertron | SCEF
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16395
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Post by Batman »

Crayz9000 wrote:I still prefer the shorter explanation of "without sights, a weapon is pretty close to impossible to aim."
Which, alas, doesn't do zilch to explain how phasers manage to fire off-axis as opposed to the user pointing it the wrong way thanks to the thing being unergonomic like nobody's business. The problem isn't the beam not hitting the presumably intended target. The problem is the beam not going in the direction the phaser happens to be pointed.
Oh, and Swindle, there's a goodly number of explanations for phasers firing off axis in universe.Chances are most of them have been gone over here before. One is simply shoddy manufacturing.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
User avatar
NomAnor15
Padawan Learner
Posts: 383
Joined: 2006-12-11 09:12pm
Location: In the land of cheese, brats, and beer.

Post by NomAnor15 »

Crayz9000 wrote:I still prefer the shorter explanation of "without sights, a weapon is pretty close to impossible to aim."
Ok, this brings up a question which has been bugging me for a long time. Phasers look (at least to me) pretty similar to those little laser pointers that you can buy for about 10 bucks. Now, I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to me that it's pretty easy to highlight whatever you're pointing at with a laser pointer (which clearly doesn't have sights). So what makes phasers so different?
"I wish I wish I hadn't killed that fish." - Homer Simpson
Image
Huh. That's less than 10 condoms per person. Though, assuming an even split between gender, that's almost 20 condoms per penis, so I certainly hope that would suffice for the three weeks they're there. -Alferd Packer

This sentence is false.
Post Reply