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RogueIce
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Post by RogueIce »

Raj Ahten wrote:I thought I could get them in before a decision was made, especially after LoneStar's strikes in the North drawing very little ire. Turns out I was wrong.
Unfortunately, yes. Had you done it a week ago, nobody would have much cared. But the timing was bad. Beforehand, we had discussed Libertia, but we really didn't have any good ideas on what to do. But when the warlords started trying to court us, and Ramsley looked like he had a good shot at getting the OMSK to back him, that kind of forced our hand.

He forced us into that discussion, which resulted in us deciding that international military action really wasn't the way to go down there. And during all of that, and the argument against the OMSK getting involved down there, you made your strike. It was simply bad timing on your part.

Notice what and where the objections are coming from: the MESS and FUN, who didn't want a foreign power backing a warlord, and were trying to talk Stas out of it. Byzantium, who is pursuing peace for it's own sake. And the Red Technocracy, who now has citizens down there.

As I said, I acknowledge the hostage rescue missions are a risk, and pretty dangerous. But we have little choice in that, since negotiating won't get us jack. We tried that with the Astorian crisis and they dumped a body out of the plane. With the police advisors, they never once contacted us for a ransom or any demands. So we had nobody to negotiate with. So the raids weren't the best option, no. But it was the only one we had, unless we were to abandon them. And we don't do that.

Your raids are problematic, for us, in that they're foreign soldiers employed by a warlord, attacking a rival warlord's facilities. Which presents a problem to the rest of us foreign powers since we're trying to implement an economic solution to the problem. You want to keep ProTec in there, advising Alexander and maybe preventing the formation of death squads, then you do so at your own risk and there's not much we can do to stop you. But just don't let them conduct raids on the other two factions.

As for Red Technocracy citizens, so long as your people aren't raiding in Ramsley's territory, it shouldn't be a problem. However, Stas, if RT citizens join Ramsley's forces on an attack against ProTec personnel and get killed because ProTec defended themselves, and you try to use that as a reason to go to war with Indhopal, we won't accept that. I can't speak for the FUN but I would hope they wouldn't accept it, either.
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Post by PeZook »

I can assure you that the FUN will not accept this as a valid cassus belli. As Raj mentioned, ProTec employees can't exactly check people's passports while they are shooting at them.
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Post by Raj Ahten »

First off, I thank both FUN and the MESS for their reasurances. Secondly, it was with some reluctance that ProTec entangled itself woth Alexander at all. He had to offer very good terms, as well as intel, to get the modest advisory mission he is getting now. If you would like me to try and get General Alexander to engage in negotiations, I will do so. I have committed to a six month training contract, and I pretty much have to complete it unless General Alexander breaks the terms of the contract. Otherwise employers can say I run when things get tough.
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Post by Coyote »

May I make a suggestion? And this isn't necessarily to any one of you here in the most recent exchange. But a lot of what is going on here in the OOC thread could, I think, have been played out in character. It is a sign of misplaced priority when the OOC thread has become more of a stage for brinksmanship and deals than the acual game itself.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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Post by Raj Ahten »

Coyote wrote:May I make a suggestion? And this isn't necessarily to any one of you here in the most recent exchange. But a lot of what is going on here in the OOC thread could, I think, have been played out in character. It is a sign of misplaced priority when the OOC thread has become more of a stage for brinksmanship and deals than the acual game itself.
Perhaps, I shpuld hold a press conference then?
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Post by RogueIce »

Coyote wrote:May I make a suggestion? And this isn't necessarily to any one of you here in the most recent exchange. But a lot of what is going on here in the OOC thread could, I think, have been played out in character. It is a sign of misplaced priority when the OOC thread has become more of a stage for brinksmanship and deals than the acual game itself.
I've actually tried to sum up things as well as I can in the game thread. I put things in pretty plain terms to Raj in here, then I posted a phone call which was basically the same thing, just dressed up a little.

True though, the lines have blurred a little.

I think this thread had kind of turned into the "back channel" of our diplomacy, really. In here, we talk pretty freely to each other, while in the game thread we're generally in more of the "public face" mode.
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"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)

"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
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Post by Coyote »

Like I said, it wasn't supposed to be a criticism of you guys-- it was a general trend I've been noticing overall, and I finally mentioned it publicly at this time. Nothing personal, I assure.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Post by RogueIce »

Jesus Christ Shep, we all knew you loved your nukes, but isn't this pushing it a little?
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"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)

"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

RL has reared it's ugly head...

I'm on painkillers right now because some idiot at work dropped something heavy and it poped the tip of my ring finger like a pimple...

so my middle finger is currently handling the typing duties for the third most common letter in the english language...
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Raj Ahten, the pilgrims have limited contact with me anyway.

Ramsley (a character who's heavily RPed by Ania, just like most of my Orthodox dudes) controls them.

If you noticed, Brother Paul died in the attack, being fatally wounded during retreat, but I didn't go apeshit on Indhopal.

So I think that's pretty much a strife with Ramsley. However, I won't be happy if you specifically target, and blow up either them, or try to snipe at Ramsley himself.

I think if your retaliation plan includes murdering Ramsley, you can count for a fullblown war erupting there very, very soon.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Stas Bush wrote: I think if your retaliation plan includes murdering Ramsley, you can count for a fullblown war erupting there very, very soon.
A very quick, a very brutal and a very short war to be sure.

On another note, I'll be MIA for the next few days I think, due to the questonability of internet access at my destination.

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Post by Raj Ahten »

Stas Bush wrote: I think if your retaliation plan includes murdering Ramsley, you can count for a fullblown war erupting there very, very soon.
They do not. That in an escalation I do not need and will not consider for any payment or revenge. My plans are to find the terrorists and bring them to trial. I was thinking of handing them over to the Red Technocracy, see what you would do with them (If I capture them, of course.). If they operate out of Walsley's territory, this could be very hard, as ProTec can't really go and get them. I have pledged to stay out of the area. Also, I quite understand these people are not under your control, but your people have very strong sympathies for them. I must apologize for the tone of earlier comments as well; I spoke too quickly and too harshly.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Well, you can try. After all, sometime later those people will travel around - they will not always stay in Libertia, under Ramsley's strong protection.

But in their view, they were attacking people who are war criminals guilty of civilian deaths in Magalia, which is pretty much what you admitted yourself.

So my people might sympathize with them, after all.

And I finally got someone to play for Ibrahim, or at least the people with ties to Ibrahim. :)
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Post by Raj Ahten »

Stas Bush wrote: But in their view, they were attacking people who are war criminals guilty of civilian deaths in Magalia, which is pretty much what you admitted yourself.
Well ProTec's would consider them trecherous pirates who use civilians as cover and are ok with kidnaping merchant sailors for randsom. Isn't sharing opinions fun?

Saying Civillians were killed in the strikes is just bowing to reality on my part. Telling it otherwise would be looking through rose colored glasses when I talk about using force to solve problems. I have definitely had some blow back. (With more planned on the way!)

Edit: also, I doubt I'd be able to capture any of the higher ups in Ramsley's group anyway. But I might be able to nab a mid level planner and perhaps a bombmaker or two.
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Post by Grand Moff Yenchin »

Giving you guys a heads up, I'm RPing the Sultan.

JIHAD TIME!!!!
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Post by Raj Ahten »

Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Giving you guys a heads up, I'm RPing the Sultan.

JIHAD TIME!!!!
Just when things were calming down a bit too :lol:
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Raj Ahten wrote:
Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Giving you guys a heads up, I'm RPing the Sultan.

JIHAD TIME!!!!
Just when things were calming down a bit too :lol:
I sure hope Ramsley understands what happens if he starts extolling a crusade.
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Post by Raj Ahten »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Raj Ahten wrote:
Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Giving you guys a heads up, I'm RPing the Sultan.

JIHAD TIME!!!!
Just when things were calming down a bit too :lol:
I sure hope Ramsley understands what happens if he starts extolling a crusade.
I believe he's talking about the Northern-most warlord, not Ramsley.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Raj Ahten wrote:I believe he's talking about the Northern-most warlord, not Ramsley.
Well, the thing is, if this Sultan starts off a Jihad against Ramsley and Ramsley replies in kind with a Crusade, I will have Ramsley declared anathema, which is even worse than a standard excommunication.
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Post by Raj Ahten »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Raj Ahten wrote:I believe he's talking about the Northern-most warlord, not Ramsley.
Well, the thing is, if this Sultan starts off a Jihad against Ramsley and Ramsley replies in kind with a Crusade, I will have Ramsley declared anathema, which is even worse than a standard excommunication.
Ah, I see. That could help, but a hell of a lot depends on what the Sultan does.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Raj Ahten wrote:Ah, I see. That could help, but a hell of a lot depends on what the Sultan does.
It better. On no certain terms will I have a bunch of dogs going yabbering and tearing each other to death. The worst case scenario is for us to decide whether or not Saddamistan is giving aid to the Sultan and whether or not the rest of the world community will sit by and watch a new vassal of Saddamistan arise.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Ramsley won't risk getting "castes" of anathema laid on him by higher clergy. He desperately needs UOC pilgrims, they are qualified staff in the spheres his would-be government is lacking.

Neither would he declare a Crusade versus Ibrahim. The Black Easter were very specific events. They lead to civilian deaths in his land and the bombing of his ports.

But Ibrahim didn't do anything so far to cause his ire, and being a general "heretic" is not enough grounds for attack in Orthodoxy (Orthodox doctrine admits that heretics may be saved even if unconverted).

As for Ibrahim and Jihad, think twice - who will he declare jihad against, Ramsley? Who has only been concerned with "Wrath of God" and did not do any moves versus Ibrahim? Or maybe Lone Star, who raided Modadishu and left the city in chaos and massive fires, which sure killed a lot of people!
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Post by Grand Moff Yenchin »

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Chill it and silence, infidels, His Highness is typing His Fatwa.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

OMSK Security Council (Shep, Bean, Fingolfin and me).

Here's the RT vote: no nukes to freakin' Saddam. No way in hell. Now, I want to know if the Security Council agrees, objects or is indifferent. And Shep's opinion, of course.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:OMSK Security Council (Shep, Bean, Fingolfin and me).

Here's the RT vote: no nukes to freakin' Saddam. No way in hell. Now, I want to know if the Security Council agrees, objects or is indifferent. And Shep's opinion, of course.
A bloody objection. Under no circumstances are we aiding a isolationist and hostile power.
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