Palpatine's Empire, NO Death Star(s)

[Havok]

How do you think the movies would have gone if the Empire never constructed a Death Star?
What would have been the consequences and repercussions in and to the Empire if this were the case?
How would Luke have redeemed Vader and defeated Palpatine?
Or any other questions you may want to answer that arises from this.

Only rule: NO superweapons that may take the DS(s) place.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I would've prefered a ROTJ that got the job done with Han rescued somewhere besides Tatooine and wrapped up the conflict somewhere and somehow other than another Death Star.

[Darth Hoth]

Well, without the Death Star and its plans, chances are that Luke would not have become involved in the Rebellion, at least not so early on. I could see him enrolling at the Academy, perhaps using an alias so as not to draw the wrong attention (for if I recall correctly, the Lars family knew that the name was dangerous). Then, Vader could have noticed him when he started making a career in the Navy...

[Oskuro]

If I recall correctly, at the beginning of ANH, Palpatine had dissolved the senate, and intended the different star systems to be controlled by fear, particularly by fear of the DS.

Without such a weapon, it is conceivable that Palpatine would not have dared dissolve the senate, and that political opposition to the Empire would have developed more quickly, leading to a new civil war, similar to the Clone Wars in scope.

[BountyHunterSAx]

The Tarkin Doctrine called for the existence of such a weapon, and so that bears out your point Lord Oskuro - that the senate was dissolved with the secure knowledge that fear would keep the star systems in line.

Before the Death Star, where was the base of operations? We never see Coruscant in the original trilogy - and I don't recall any mention of it in the novelization.

Also - and I could be wrong here as I'm not sure of where I read this - it turned out that the decision to 'Sakujo' (delete/eliminate) Alderaan backfired as it was viewed as an unspeakably evil act and it actually drew more people to support the rebellion rather than to flee from the rebellion. So perhaps the existence of the Death Star(s) actually helped the rebellion by giving them a focal point for their efforts, much the same way that 'Nuking Makkah' would have a rallying/solidifying effect on Muslims throughout the world.

-AHMAD

[Darth Ruinus]

Didnt someone on this board make a calc that the Death Star is equal to about 5 billion ISDs? So Palpatine doesnt build the Death Star, but the Tarkin Doctrine is enforced by the 5 billion ISD fleets. In which case, I think it would have been harder for the Rebellion, since all those extra ISDs going around are going to make any battles they have, or even bringin up a fleet, extremely hard.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Didnt someone on this board make a calc that the Death Star is equal to about 5 billion ISDs? So Palpatine doesnt build the Death Star, but the Tarkin Doctrine is enforced by the 5 billion ISD fleets. In which case, I think it would have been harder for the Rebellion, since all those extra ISDs going around are going to make any battles they have, or even bringin up a fleet, extremely hard.

The only issue for the Empire would be how best to deal with recalcitrant worlds with powerful planetary shields.

[Darth Ruinus]

The only issue for the Empire would be how best to deal with recalcitrant worlds with powerful planetary shields.

Isnt that what Torpedo Sphere were for? But besides that, why would anyone try to cause shit if the Empire has the largest fleet in galactic history by several orders of magnitude? Or can easily send several hundred or thousand ships to hit those planetary shields?

[Crayz9000]

The only issue for the Empire would be how best to deal with recalcitrant worlds with powerful planetary shields.

Isnt that what Torpedo Sphere were for? But besides that, why would anyone try to cause shit if the Empire has the largest fleet in galactic history by several orders of magnitude? Or can easily send several hundred or thousand ships to hit those planetary shields?

The torpedo sphere worked, but it was based on analyzing a planetary shield and targeting its weaknesses. In the time it takes to do that, it's entirely possible for a signal to get out and a relief fleet to arrive and target said torpedo sphere.

The whole point of the Death Star was to eliminate that reaction time.

[Lazarus]

Didnt someone on this board make a calc that the Death Star is equal to about 5 billion ISDs? So Palpatine doesnt build the Death Star, but the Tarkin Doctrine is enforced by the 5 billion ISD fleets. In which case, I think it would have been harder for the Rebellion, since all those extra ISDs going around are going to make any battles they have, or even bringin up a fleet, extremely hard.

Using the DS resources to construct ISD's instead isn't the point - the insane amount of resources at the Empire's disposal is demonstrated by the construction of the DSII in secret in a year or so IIRC. If the Empire had wanted more warships it could have had them, so this isn't an either/or scenario.

Without any sort of superweapon to enforce the Tarkin doctrine as it was intended a different approach will have been required. There's a significant difference between the pre- and post- Senate dissolution Empire, so without the ability to keep systems in line through force, the Senate may not be dissolved. Of course, the fact that the DS's destruction didn't provoke an all-out civil war suggests that conventional forces may have been able to achieve the same effect. After all, it wasn't systems breaking off that resulted in the Empire's collapse, at least not pre-ROTJ, it was guerrilla warfare, and you can't shoot guerrilla warfare with a superlaser, so I question the effectiveness of the Tarkin doctrine anyway.

[TC Pilot]

The combination of the prorouging of the Senate, the destruction of Alderaan, and the unprecedented rebel victory at Yavin would never have happened without the Death Star (the Senate may still have been suspended, due to the traitorous support many of its members were offering the rebels) and thus seriously deprived the Rebel Alliance of the material and psychological benefits they had otherwise recieved.

Luke would probably still have recieved Jedi training, perhaps an even more thorough education at the hands of Obi-Wan, and he would have inevitably joined in the fight, and almost inevitably crossed paths with Vader eventually.

[Darth Raptor]

If I recall correctly, at the beginning of ANH, Palpatine had dissolved the senate, and intended the different star systems to be controlled by fear, particularly by fear of the DS.

Without such a weapon, it is conceivable that Palpatine would not have dared dissolve the senate, and that political opposition to the Empire would have developed more quickly, leading to a new civil war, similar to the Clone Wars in scope.

No. By 35rS, the Senate was nothing more than an echo chamber and rubber stamp bureaucracy. All serious political opposition to Palatine had either been eliminated or forced underground. The Senators who supported the Rebellion did so covertly. At any rate, the Empire appears to have remained stable without the Senate up until the Emperor's death in 39 and it never completely went away.

[SCRawl]

After all, it wasn't systems breaking off that resulted in the Empire's collapse, at least not pre-ROTJ, it was guerrilla warfare, and you can't shoot guerrilla warfare with a superlaser, so I question the effectiveness of the Tarkin doctrine anyway.

With the DS in operation, any significant rebellion would be doomed to failure. Consider this scenario.

Empire (broadcast to anyone who wants to hear): Rebels! Lay down your arms or we'll blow up Alderaan.

Rebels: Bah, he doesn't have the firepower to do that.

Empire: Boom. Lay down your arms or we'll blow up Corellia.

Rebels: Holy shit, he did it! But he wouldn't do it again. Would he?

Empire: Boom. Lay down your arms or we'll blow up <fill in the blank>.

Pretty soon the rebels would get the idea that they won't be able to continue to operate. That's why it was so important to blow it up -- not to merely escape Yavin, but to actually destroy the DS.

[Warsie]

Without such a weapon, it is conceivable that Palpatine would not have dared dissolve the senate, and that political opposition to the Empire would have developed more quickly, leading to a new civil war, similar to the Clone Wars in scope.

lol wut? There would be little opposition; the Senate would still check Palpatine STRONGLY, especially if said opposition was that strong. He dissolved it after the DS was complete, as he also did not like the Senators constantly disrespecting him. (Rebellion Era Sourcebook)

[Lazarus]

With the DS in operation, any significant rebellion would be doomed to failure. Consider this scenario.

Empire (broadcast to anyone who wants to hear): Rebels! Lay down your arms or we'll blow up Alderaan.

Rebels: Bah, he doesn't have the firepower to do that.

Empire: Boom. Lay down your arms or we'll blow up Corellia.

Rebels: Holy shit, he did it! But he wouldn't do it again. Would he?

Empire: Boom. Lay down your arms or we'll blow up <fill in the blank>.

Pretty soon the rebels would get the idea that they won't be able to continue to operate. That's why it was so important to blow it up -- not to merely escape Yavin, but to actually destroy the DS.

This is the same flawed idea that every single dictatorial government fighting an insurrection has had, and which inevitably only causes more support for the guerrillas. In the same way as executing civilian hostages does NOT cause guerillas to lose support, but rather swells their ranks, killing billions of innocent people will INCREASE support for the Rebellion, not decrease it. You seriously think a government executing billions of it's own people would make an insurgency give up and go home? Hells no, because every single citizen who doesn't like the idea that their government can kill them at any time will join the Rebellion.

[Ghost Rider]

With the DS in operation, any significant rebellion would be doomed to failure. Consider this scenario.

Empire (broadcast to anyone who wants to hear): Rebels! Lay down your arms or we'll blow up Alderaan.

Rebels: Bah, he doesn't have the firepower to do that.

Empire: Boom. Lay down your arms or we'll blow up Corellia.

Rebels: Holy shit, he did it! But he wouldn't do it again. Would he?

Empire: Boom. Lay down your arms or we'll blow up <fill in the blank>.

Pretty soon the rebels would get the idea that they won't be able to continue to operate. That's why it was so important to blow it up -- not to merely escape Yavin, but to actually destroy the DS.

This is the same flawed idea that every single dictatorial government fighting an insurrection has had, and which inevitably only causes more support for the guerrillas. In the same way as executing civilian hostages does NOT cause guerillas to lose support, but rather swells their ranks, killing billions of innocent people will INCREASE support for the Rebellion, not decrease it. You seriously think a government executing billions of it's own people would make an insurgency give up and go home? Hells no, because every single citizen who doesn't like the idea that their government can kill them at any time will join the Rebellion.

As the old line of thought goes...with what fucking army?

Seriously the Empire/New Order controls the most of the army and navy. What the fuck is the Rebellion supposed to other then FUEL a dictator's want to build badder and nastier weapons to help protect his people?

this is always a problem with ever revolution against a government. If you do not control the arms or a have a backer of parity. You're fucked, clean and simple.

[Warsie]

As the old line of thought goes...with what fucking army?

their army mainly. And using the Imperials against themselves

Seriously the Empire/New Order controls the most of the army and navy. What the fuck is the Rebellion supposed to other then FUEL a dictator's want to build badder and nastier weapons to help protect his people?

this is always a problem with ever revolution against a government. If you do not control the arms or a have a backer of parity. You're fucked, clean and simple.

Erm. Given the DS is in operation Tarkin might try to take over the Empire, resulting in a civil war based of the ANH Radio Dramatization, and the Alliance could take advantage of that. The Imperial Senate might be called back in session as well given it's been dissolved relatively recently

[TC Pilot]

This is the same flawed idea that every single dictatorial government fighting an insurrection has had, and which inevitably only causes more support for the guerrillas. In the same way as executing civilian hostages does NOT cause guerillas to lose support, but rather swells their ranks, killing billions of innocent people will INCREASE support for the Rebellion, not decrease it. You seriously think a government executing billions of it's own people would make an insurgency give up and go home? Hells no, because every single citizen who doesn't like the idea that their government can kill them at any time will join the Rebellion.

The flaw in your argument is you are trying to compare the Rebellion with earthbound insurgencies. In order for the Rebel Alliance to inflict any significant damage or have even a lasting impact, they must possess weapons and logistical support for something vastly larger than bands of local guerillas.

Indeed, virtually all the Rebel Alliance's equipment and war materials are derived from support, secretly or otherwise, donated by dissenting planetary governments. The Death Star would then be the deterrent to such dissent, because no planetary government would risk obliteration. That is why Tarkin declared "No star system will dare oppose the Emperor now."

[Ghost Rider]

As the old line of thought goes...with what fucking army?

their army mainly. And using the Imperials against themselves

Y'know it would help to show precedence that they can have near equal parity with the New Order.

Oh wait, not until late in the New Republic's life were they ever there.

So c'mon evidence of your claim.

Seriously the Empire/New Order controls the most of the army and navy. What the fuck is the Rebellion supposed to other then FUEL a dictator's want to build badder and nastier weapons to help protect his people?

this is always a problem with ever revolution against a government. If you do not control the arms or a have a backer of parity. You're fucked, clean and simple.

Erm. Given the DS is in operation Tarkin might try to take over the Empire, resulting in a civil war based of the ANH Radio Dramatization, and the Alliance could take advantage of that. The Imperial Senate might be called back in session as well given it's been dissolved relatively recently

Yes, because Darth Vader was there for tea and crumpets.

So how does this benefit the Alliance, you blithering retard?

[Warsie]

Y'know it would help to show precedence that they can have near equal parity with the New Order.

Oh wait, not until late in the New Republic's life were they ever there.

I never said they were in equal parity with the New Order everywhere or in total.There were sectors in the Outer Rim where the Alliance was able to fight the Imperials in more conventional ways, see the Battle of Turkana as an example.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Turkana

So c'mon evidence of your claim.

see above statement.

EDIT: and
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Motti#Personal_agendas

So how does this benefit the Alliance, you blithering retard?

An Empire in Civil War makes it easier for the Alliance to operate, cockmongler. Especially if Palpatine is killed. If the enemy is busy destroying itself, you do nothing or try to stir up the shit up worse, like what the New Republic did after the Imperials retook Coruscant and fell into civil war.

[SCRawl]

With the DS in operation, any significant rebellion would be doomed to failure. Consider this scenario.

Empire (broadcast to anyone who wants to hear): Rebels! Lay down your arms or we'll blow up Alderaan.

Rebels: Bah, he doesn't have the firepower to do that.

Empire: Boom. Lay down your arms or we'll blow up Corellia.

Rebels: Holy shit, he did it! But he wouldn't do it again. Would he?

Empire: Boom. Lay down your arms or we'll blow up <fill in the blank>.

Pretty soon the rebels would get the idea that they won't be able to continue to operate. That's why it was so important to blow it up -- not to merely escape Yavin, but to actually destroy the DS.

This is the same flawed idea that every single dictatorial government fighting an insurrection has had, and which inevitably only causes more support for the guerrillas. In the same way as executing civilian hostages does NOT cause guerillas to lose support, but rather swells their ranks, killing billions of innocent people will INCREASE support for the Rebellion, not decrease it. You seriously think a government executing billions of it's own people would make an insurgency give up and go home? Hells no, because every single citizen who doesn't like the idea that their government can kill them at any time will join the Rebellion.

The two reasons the DS-equipped Empire could succeed where other terrestrial dictators failed: the death star was unassailable (save for a minor, virtually undetectable design flaw); and it had portable ultimate destructive power. There was just nothing that anyone anywhere could throw at it with the hope of stopping it, including the Empire's own military assets.

[Ghost Rider]

Y'know it would help to show precedence that they can have near equal parity with the New Order.

Oh wait, not until late in the New Republic's life were they ever there.

I never said they were in equal parity with the New Order everywhere or in total.There were sectors in the Outer Rim where the Alliance was able to fight the Imperials in more conventional ways, see the Battle of Turkana as an example.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Turkana

Ah yes, one example in the ass end of the galaxy is proof that they will ever get to parity of the fucking New Order

So c'mon evidence of your claim.

see above statement.

EDIT: and
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Motti#Personal_agendas

Ooooh, two examples.

So this is the same as going "But the Americans were able to hurt the Hessians at Valley Forge thus showing they can take on the British."

Care to try again?

So how does this benefit the Alliance, you blithering retard?

An Empire in Civil War makes it easier for the Alliance to operate, cockmongler. Especially if Palpatine is killed. If the enemy is busy destroying itself, you do nothing or try to stir up the shit up worse, like what the New Republic did after the Imperials retook Coruscant and fell into civil war.

Right, because wait...oh wait, you're responding to the OP and once again did not fucking read. Again I love your half assed moronitude. Read what I responded to you goddamn ignorant fucker, and then come back and answer.

Because it's not about the OP you blithering retard.

[Warsie]

Ah yes, one example in the ass end of the galaxy is proof that they will ever get to parity of the fucking New Order

I said:

"I never said they were in equal parity with the New Order everywhere or in total."

any more "Sarcastic" crap you want to spew?

Ooooh, two examples.

So this is the same as going "But the Americans were able to hurt the Hessians at Valley Forge thus showing they can take on the British."

Care to try again?

I don't have to "try again"

you said "So c'mon evidence of your claim.". I provided evidence, now you're trying to change shit. "Moving the goalposts", I believe the term is?

Right, because wait...oh wait, you're responding to the OP and once again did not fucking read. Again I love your half assed moronitude. Read what I responded to you goddamn ignorant fucker, and then come back and answer.

Because it's not about the OP you blithering retard.

You fucking fail so hard:

Seriously the Empire/New Order controls the most of the army and navy. What the fuck is the Rebellion supposed to other then FUEL a dictator's want to build badder and nastier weapons to help protect his people?

this is always a problem with ever revolution against a government. If you do not control the arms or a have a backer of parity. You're fucked, clean and simple.

I responded:

Erm. Given the DS is in operation Tarkin might try to take over the Empire, resulting in a civil war based of the ANH Radio Dramatization, and the Alliance could take advantage of that. The Imperial Senate might be called back in session as well given it's been dissolved relatively recently

You countered

Yes, because Darth Vader was there for tea and crumpets.

So how does this benefit the Alliance, you blithering retard?

and I responded:

An Empire in Civil War makes it easier for the Alliance to operate, cockmongler. Especially if Palpatine is killed. If the enemy is busy destroying itself, you do nothing or try to stir up the shit up worse, like what the New Republic did after the Imperials retook Coruscant and fell into civil war.

Is it getting into your fucking stupid ass yet? Or are you still following the shiny lights?

EDIT: I read the post again, and that has no bearing whatsoever. Whatever you attempted won't work. You're full of shit.

[Ghost Rider]

You gotta love an idiot so convinced that they read the argument they continue blindly. Just for everyone, the OP is about an situation without a DS, in said topic there was a tangent that had this relation to the Death Star.

With the DS in operation, any significant rebellion would be doomed to failure. Consider this scenario.

Empire (broadcast to anyone who wants to hear): Rebels! Lay down your arms or we'll blow up Alderaan.

Rebels: Bah, he doesn't have the firepower to do that.

Empire: Boom. Lay down your arms or we'll blow up Corellia.

Rebels: Holy shit, he did it! But he wouldn't do it again. Would he?

Empire: Boom. Lay down your arms or we'll blow up <fill in the blank>.

Pretty soon the rebels would get the idea that they won't be able to continue to operate. That's why it was so important to blow it up -- not to merely escape Yavin, but to actually destroy the DS.

This is the same flawed idea that every single dictatorial government fighting an insurrection has had, and which inevitably only causes more support for the guerrillas. In the same way as executing civilian hostages does NOT cause guerillas to lose support, but rather swells their ranks, killing billions of innocent people will INCREASE support for the Rebellion, not decrease it. You seriously think a government executing billions of it's own people would make an insurgency give up and go home? Hells no, because every single citizen who doesn't like the idea that their government can kill them at any time will join the Rebellion.

As the old line of thought goes...with what fucking army?

Seriously the Empire/New Order controls the most of the army and navy. What the fuck is the Rebellion supposed to other then FUEL a dictator's want to build badder and nastier weapons to help protect his people?

this is always a problem with ever revolution against a government. If you do not control the arms or a have a backer of parity. You're fucked, clean and simple.

Read the post I was responding to again retard, then come back with a post in relation to that. Otherwise you're railing against the wind with half assed points that are in the minority and your personal biased and unfounded suppositions.

[Warsie]

Just for everyone, the OP is about an situation without a DS, in said topic there was a tangent that had this relation to the Death Star.

correct.

And I was answering you, who was answering someone who brought up a situation with a death star. I was not talking about the OP in the post:

Read the post I was responding to again retard, then come back with a post in relation to that. Otherwise you're railing against the wind with half assed points that are in the minority and your personal biased and unfounded suppositions.

So the sources I provided, quotes from the ANH novelization and the like are "half-assed points". And "Unfounded Suppositions". Heh.

Also, yes....what did they say?

EDIT: Also, I wasn't responding to HIM. I was responding to YOU.

With the DS in operation, any significant rebellion would be doomed to failure. Consider this scenario....

"This is the same flawed idea that every single dictatorial government fighting an insurrection has had, and which inevitably only causes more support for the guerrillas"

"As the old line of thought goes...with what fucking army?"

The Death Star is in effect, IM NOT REFERRING TO THE OP POST.