Suppose for a second...

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-24 01:18pm

If the Federation WAS going to try to overthrow the Empire, would there be any way that they could? And if they could, what new tactics would have to be adopted by them? Something like the rebels, possibly?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-01-24 01:20pm

NF_Utvol wrote:If the Federation WAS going to try to overthrow the Empire, would there be any way that they could? And if they could, what new tactics would have to be adopted by them? Something like the rebels, possibly?

Throw what little industial and resources (little by SW standards) into the mix with the rebels. Raw material and new recruits are about the only assets the Feds have to offer against the Empire.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-24 01:21pm

They'd have to literally go for finding a galaxy and utilizing those resources to fight the Empire(and then there's the tech level difference)

The Empire's main failure was their Emperor and Vader's want for Skywalker.

Nothing the rebels really did made much impact, until Luke came onto the scene...and then it became overriding regardless of any wisdom to convert or destroy Skywalker.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-24 01:22pm

They would need to slowly acquire Imperial technology and work from within, like any political insurgency group.

Think about it: without hyperdrive, they wouldn't be able to go from place to place in the Empire, which is spread out over an entire galaxy. They couldn't even co-ordinate or communicate amongst themselves without being able to use the Galactic Holo-Net. They could only overthrow the Empire the way Palpatine did; through political means. An actual military takeover is flat-out impossible. Even the smartest ant can't knock down a skyscraper, but he could try to infest it.

McNum · Post by **McNum** » 2003-01-24 01:26pm

If they were going to try, open conflict would be out of the question. Diplomacy might be an option, but wheter the Empire would listen or not is unceartain.

Their best bets would be either a very covert guirilla tactic focusing on few important facilities or, if the Empire had already taken over, to be generally as unsupportive as possible making the Empire think that they are not worth all that trouble.

meNNis · Post by **meNNis** » 2003-01-24 01:26pm

*snip*

Darth Wong wrote: Even the smartest ant can't knock down a skyscraper, but he could try to infest it.

very nice

i ditto that

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-24 01:28pm

Well if the Federation threw in with the Rebellion, it WOULD help. We already know the Rebellion is going to win, and more support will only help speed up things. Some technology will be adapted by the Rebellion while the Federation will get some support while it tries to adapt Star Wars technology. I could see the Federation becoming a regional power in the New Republic if they manage to survive the civil war and Thrawn's renewed campaign.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-24 01:31pm

You can't just join the winning side because in RETROSPECTIVE they won... if they join a group of people who won out of sheer luck, and not really make much of a difference, then what did you accomplish? It's a bit like saying: how can I have political power in the US... by befriending Bush before the election because he was going to win

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-24 03:18pm

Darth Wong wrote:They couldn't even co-ordinate or communicate amongst themselves without being able to use the Galactic Holo-Net.

Well, in Shadows of the Empire, Luke explains it is apparently rather easy to hack into the Holonet. It is likely one does not gain the advantages of a secure and reliable and channel, or one allowing as much access or data transfer as an official channel. Nevertheless, Luke DID say it was possible.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-24 03:47pm

The Feds could introduce the technique of technobabble to the Rebellion

Yes, I know this isn't valid, but just wanted to add that.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-24 03:51pm

If they're actually able to overthrow the Empire will depend on the kind of alternate SW timeline we use, is it one where the Empire won the battle of Endor or one with a new Empire like Wong's setting? In this case there's no rebellion anymore and it'll be difficult for the underground feds to accomplish anything.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-24 04:19pm

Even if we granted that Fed tech was equal to Imp tech, it would take several generations to do it. Afterall, it appears there was rebellion right from the start of Palpatine's rule, and even after the Alliance was formed it took 6-7 years to get to Endor. And a large part of that was possible because post Yavin alot of people threw their support in with the Rebs. No DS to kill for the Feddies, no major suppliers, which will slow them considerably.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-24 06:38pm

They would have two options:

1. Kill the Emperor. This is obviously a faster but far less sure-fire method of destroying the Empire, though some of the regional warlords would retain enough strength to pose a threat to the UFP.

2. Acquire Imperial technology, learn to live with the SW universe, and slowly build strength for a real war.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-24 06:49pm

Master of Ossus wrote:They would have two options:

1. Kill the Emperor. This is obviously a faster but far less sure-fire method of destroying the Empire, though some of the regional warlords would retain enough strength to pose a threat to the UFP.

The Emperor seems to foresee a great deal, and would be rather difficult to kill. With no Jedi, they would have nothing the Emperor wants, and he would use old-fashioned military power to crush them, rather than the stupid chance he took to ensnare Luke.

2. Acquire Imperial technology, learn to live with the SW universe, and slowly build strength for a real war.

At best, they could only become a very small regional power even if they fully assimilate SW technology. They just don't have the numbers for anything else. Moreover, their society is fragile; its philosophical goals and socio-economic model are easily "corrupted" by exposure to outsiders (witness how Jake Sisko is reduced to abandoning his societal values and begging Nog for real money).

The Federation's society would change after prolonged exposure to the Empire. Far more people than Trekkies suspect would probably start working with the Empire immediately (all of the descendants of France, for example

). You can't have whole planets of insurgents; every planetary government would have to superficially accept Imperial rule, and the prospect of someone looking to get rich by selling out his compatriots would be too high to risk; any insurgency movement would have to go underground, even on Federation worlds. How much are they going to accomplish?

Rhoades · Post by **Rhoades** » 2003-01-24 06:52pm

It depends on what the exact criteria they're willing to settle with. Any direct military action is out of the question, though guriella warfare is a possible route. The fact, the Empire will have the UFP conquered for the Feds could turn the Imps. The best options are either: political or cultural dominance over the Empire.

In the political route, the best way to defeat the Empire is to turn the people support against the Imperial forces. Exactly how is a different question.

Then there's cultural influence, which will take years even decades to accomplish. However, when the Empire conquers the Federation, they are going to subject Federation citizens to an Imperial rule. And their beliefs, customs, and traditions are most likely going to carry on and possibly influence generations.

Honestly, the best approach for Federation would be like the old saying, 'If you can't beat them, join them.'

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-24 07:11pm

You're starting to make me think of Imperial Phoenix again!

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2003-01-25 03:38am

Alyeska wrote:Well if the Federation threw in with the Rebellion, it WOULD help.

But how significant it would be? Sure, several conscripts joining the Rebels would also help. The question is whether it could make significant difference or not.

Alyeska wrote: We already know the Rebellion is going to win,

Not from military perspective. We know the Rebellion is going to win because we watched ROTJ.

Alyeska wrote: and more support will only help speed up things.

Only if the support is significant enough the make a difference.

Alyeska wrote: Some technology will be adapted by the Rebellion while the Federation will get some support while it tries to adapt Star Wars technology. I could see the Federation becoming a regional power in the New Republic if they manage to survive the civil war and Thrawn's renewed campaign.

This is where I disagree at most. The disparity of technology, firepower, FTL speed, shield strength, and *industrial capacity* between the Feds and the Rebels are so great that the Feds will be more liability than asset to the Rebels.

If the Feds joined the Rebellion, then the Rebels would waste its time to upgrade the Feds' tech up to SW standard, instead of fighting the Empire. The Rebels just don't have such luxury for that.

If the rebels becomes a regional power in the NR, then they will need constant NR protection until their tech level and size mathces other power groups like the Hapes, the Ssi-Ruuvi, the CSA, and Imperial Warlords.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-01-25 06:51pm

NF_Utvol wrote:If the Federation WAS going to try to overthrow the Empire, would there be any way that they could? And if they could, what new tactics would have to be adopted by them? Something like the rebels, possibly?

Well if the Emperor is still alive, they can't do it politically, they lack the technology and military abilities to try an assault of any kind.All they could do was join the Rebellion. To give you a decent parallel (in terms of population and technology disparity), this is like asking "If Papua New Guinea WAS going to try to overthrow the Third Reich in 1941, would there be any way that they could? And if they could, what new tactics would have to be adopted by them?"

See the gulf they have to overcome, no doubt there would be individuals who, in the right circumstances, could become valued members of the Rebellion, but the Feds or the Entire Alpha Quad simply don't have the tech or population to make any real difference on their own merits.

I don'tdoubt tht the UFP's morals would compel them to aid the Rebellion, but what aid they could give... sorry apart from manpower (that would need to be trained to use just the everyday tech, not to mention how to be an effective military) there is little else the UFP could contribute.

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-01-26 06:36pm

Knife wrote:
NF_Utvol wrote:If the Federation WAS going to try to overthrow the Empire, would there be any way that they could? And if they could, what new tactics would have to be adopted by them? Something like the rebels, possibly?
Throw what little industial and resources (little by SW standards) into the mix with the rebels. Raw material and new recruits are about the only assets the Feds have to offer against the Empire.

Well, we have to ASSUME that they'd even know about the Rebels in the first place and that they could find their hidden base to negotiate with Mon Mothra to join.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-26 06:46pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:They couldn't even co-ordinate or communicate amongst themselves without being able to use the Galactic Holo-Net.
Well, in Shadows of the Empire, Luke explains it is apparently rather easy to hack into the Holonet. It is likely one does not gain the advantages of a secure and reliable and channel, or one allowing as much access or data transfer as an official channel. Nevertheless, Luke DID say it was possible.

True...but consider this....email is easy to send....hacking IM programs can be done with computers....but if all you have is an old telegraph it isnt going to work well....they'd still need to learn to use and adapt SW tech to get anywhere....

ReinnResauq · Post by **ReinnResauq** » 2003-01-27 04:35pm

Shinova wrote:The Feds could introduce the technique of technobabble to the Rebellion

Yes, I know this isn't valid, but just wanted to add that.

Why isn't it valid?

Two words people: Geordi LaForge. A good three or four minute treknobabbale rant from him would make any Imperial Officer commit suicide. Either that or send him to the Imperial torture chamber on the other side of the Reading Rainbow. Either way, it would be damned funny.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-27 05:16pm

Darth Wong wrote:They would need to slowly acquire Imperial technology and work from within, like any political insurgency group.

Think about it: without hyperdrive, they wouldn't be able to go from place to place in the Empire, which is spread out over an entire galaxy. They couldn't even co-ordinate or communicate amongst themselves without being able to use the Galactic Holo-Net. They could only overthrow the Empire the way Palpatine did; through political means. An actual military takeover is flat-out impossible. Even the smartest ant can't knock down a skyscraper, but he could try to infest it.

Well maybe one of my new super.....

Even then, we'd be looking at a process spanning decades if not over a century, if it even has a chance. The Emperor had the force and a Sith to aid him, along with many huge Industrial and corporate powers as pawns, and it still took him decades just to get an army formed.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-27 05:59pm

Ben Ingram wrote:
Knife wrote:
NF_Utvol wrote:If the Federation WAS going to try to overthrow the Empire, would there be any way that they could? And if they could, what new tactics would have to be adopted by them? Something like the rebels, possibly?
Throw what little industial and resources (little by SW standards) into the mix with the rebels. Raw material and new recruits are about the only assets the Feds have to offer against the Empire.

Well, we have to ASSUME that they'd even know about the Rebels in the first place and that they could find their hidden base to negotiate with Mon Mothra to join.

Mon Mothma, not Mon Mothra. Mothra = Godzilla, Mothma = Star Wars.

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