SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK II

[K. A. Pital]

Stas the 500 nautical miles are a bargaining position

We have been over this really, all nations have agreed to Law of the Sea due to our territorial proximity, and likewise to the Internatinoanl Neutral Space exploration limits disallowing non-Atlantis-launched satellites in Low Earth Orbit.

Saddamistan did not. He also shut down Zoria's space program by threatening the nation, prompting Shep to rescue Zorian scientists before Saddam could get a grip on them.

Now he re-iterates his insane claim of 500 nautical miles. What of those in the Central Sea, and Zoria? Hell they just lost their Navy.

No. He should back down, not us. Else, that means any state strong enough can bully half the world into submission, acceptance of ridiculous demands and any military operation against foreign soil? Please. For the good of us all, this precedent better not happen.

If everyone else backs down, I will. But note I'm not enforcing Libertian Naval Zones, anyway, I'm in the Central Sea, protecting MY own nation and some Central Sea allies whom I think warrant protection. The MESS is enforcing Libertian Naval Zone, so let them do it and see. If Saddam attacks them, we will go on from there.

[phongn]

I am very interested in acquiring your systems, if they truly are availible right now.

Missiles are available right now, we've already sold them to a few countries and have a good inventory of them. SAM/ABMs will take more work, though, since we'd have to setup the radar systems, the datalinks and the launcher systems. Tonkin doesn't quite have any really mobile systems.

[Raj Ahten]

I am very interested in acquiring your systems, if they truly are availible right now.

Missiles are available right now, we've already sold them to a few countries and have a good inventory of them. SAM/ABMs will take more work, though, since we'd have to setup the radar systems, the datalinks and the launcher systems. Tonkin doesn't quite have any really mobile systems.

I believe I'll put in a full order for the anti-ship missiles then, as long as they have capabilities close to that of the Blackbeard system. For SAM's, I really want mobile systems if I can get them, so I'll wait to hear from Shep if I can sign onto his new SAM system. In the mean time I'll sign up for a minimal system from you. Same goes with ABM; I'd like to have the basics. Actually anthing more would really be beyond my current budget, as I am taking lones for a crash defense program.

[Mr Bean]

Note to the smaller nations, by the end of this year I'm likely to have 20 Halifax's up for sale.

[K. A. Pital]

Okay, let me sort it out.

First you demand ships essentially "grounded", i.e. moved back to harbors.

Then Shep says he operates a fleet far off in the ocean.

But MY ships, were either in the Ocean, or in the Central Sea. The former were beyond Saddam's range, the latter were in-range, but they were protecting Central Sea nations - and ones fit with ASM and ABM missiles, too.

This standdown will result in nothing, since Saddam will just continue his own force, and now that he saw us cowering back he'll probably lockdown Central Sea naval space.

Also, the FUN has locked the sea down for Saddamistan ships, so if he actually ventures into hi "500 mile" zone his ships will be destroyed, which means a casus belli.

Saddamistan's claims, no matter what the reason for them, should simply not be honoured, not even a pretense that we can be bullied by him.

[CmdrWilkens]

General note, the WIN is flying a 6-8 plane BARCAP at all times with alert fighters on both carrier decks. If it wasn't clear already the two task forces (TF74 and TF 84 if anyones cares) are operating on the equivalent to DEFCON 2.

[MKSheppard]

Then Shep says he operates a fleet far off in the ocean.

It was part of my emergency war dispersal orders; surging all of my carriers, despite one essentially being unfit for combat, to avoid them being destroyed by nuclear strikes while in port; and I sent them as far north of Shepnukistan as I could and still remain in contact with them. It would take them at full speed (33 kts), four entire days to get within striking range of Saddamistan; so it's not a threat to him; just a precaution against losing them.

[RogueIce]

The MESS is interested in diplomacy. To put it blunty, Saddamistan is NOT.

All he has ever done is play the schoolyard bully. "Do as I say or I will attack."

First it was his earlier ridiculous claim of territorial waters, which would so happen to include numerous other nations. We put forth the Law of the Sea, which we have adhered to and we CONTINUE to adhere to. MESS forces have been under strict orders to honor Saddamistan's waters as per the Treaty.

Next he made his infinty plus one rule, and never rescinded that, even with the NSC. In response we have all taken great pains to ensure we do not overfly his territory.

We were willing to put up with it before. But now it is different.

He ATTACKED another country, recognized or not, organized or not. We called upon him REPEATEDLY to provide evidence of his claims for justification. We were met with only silence and veiled threats. Internationally recognized international waters were summarily declared off limits, and he has apparently released mines to keep it that way. This is unacceptable.

Now he has demanded the withdrawl of naval assets, assets which were there ONLY to protect the nations of the Central Sea. And he says then he will go to the bargaining table?

No. I don't buy it. As Wilkens said, we have tried, repeatedly, to get him to talk about this, well before we enacted Operation Defend Liberty. And in response he has gone back to making his ridiculous demands, and then saying maybe he'll start talking?

That is not diplomacy. That is him, setting terms, again, and expecting the rest of us to fall into line. It's too late for that. He attacked another country and refused to provide any solid justification for his actions. He does NOT get to set these preposterous terms and threaten nuclear war if he doesn't get his way. Not while he has CONTINUED to ignore our requests, started BEFORE we began defending Libertia, to provide evidence for his claimed attacks and that so-called invasion "armada".

If you want to be the Neville Chamberlain of SDNWord, have at it Bean. But the MESS is not going to stand by and let somebody attack another for no cause just because they get all mad we dared to stand between them.

[Mr Bean]

Your missing the point Stas. 500 Miles does not mean two shits, He's never tried to enforce 500 miles. The point I'm trying to get a across and your the only OMSK memeber not to grasp it is simple

Check your PM's

[RogueIce]

Let me sum up my position. It was one thing to divert the orbit of satellites. In the end, it doesn't really mean anything and if he wants clear skies over his head, fine.

It is entirely another to just sit back and let him play bully in the face of armed aggression. He launched an attack on Terra Libertia that was, as far as we are concerned right now, entirely unprovoked. We've asked him to back up his reasons for that. He ignored us.

So forgive me if I am not inclined to give him what he wants when he has consistently ignored our calls for a diplomatic resolution to an armed conflict he waged against another nation.

We will still seek a diplomatic solution. The MESS WILL NOT start an armed conflict with Saddamistan. But we're not going to let him bully us with the vauge threat of nuclear weapons he may or may not actually have.

[K. A. Pital]

Bean, I'm pretty much sure I got it come on.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Tulka's brotherhood is known as "The Will of Justice"

[RogueIce]

Oh and Shep, we would once again like to point out the Jihad is against Lonestar only. Shepnukistan (nor any OMSK member) was not and has not been included in that.

[RogueIce]

By the way, why are the dealings of the alliances being kept secret? Couldn't that lead to horrible misunderstandings?

Raj Ahten brings up an excellent point.

The MESS has been very forthcoming. We are defending Terra Libertia and ourselves, and enforcing boundries agreed upon by international law.

Bean, whatever your plan is, it would be nice to let us in on it. Because how do you think it looks to have had the OMSK Pact at one point supporting the rest of us (and not just the MESS, FUN members have been with us too) and then when Skimmer starts issuing threats you publically pull back?

I am a very generous person, Bean. But in context of the game, I am disappointed, to say the least.

If you're planning some kind of diplomatic solution, it'd be nice to let us in on it, don't you think? Otherwise we'll be left wondering why it appears the OMSK decided to abandon us and Libertia when Saddamistan started issuing threats.

[MKSheppard]

Oh and Shep, we would once again like to point out the Jihad is against Lonestar only. Shepnukistan (nor any OMSK member) was not and has not been included in that.

Bullshit.

"To begin, I tell you: I have no intention of launching a Jihad against your nation. The existance of the "Jihadist Invasion Armada" puzzles me as it infuriates you. For my Jihad is against Shepnukistani and Lonestar, my struggle is of the infidels in Terra Libertia.

[RogueIce]

Oh and Shep, we would once again like to point out the Jihad is against Lonestar only. Shepnukistan (nor any OMSK member) was not and has not been included in that.

Bullshit.

"To begin, I tell you: I have no intention of launching a Jihad against your nation. The existance of the "Jihadist Invasion Armada" puzzles me as it infuriates you. For my Jihad is against Shepnukistani and Lonestar, my struggle is of the infidels in Terra Libertia.

Well in that case then Yenchin misspoke or something. Because he said after (in OOC) that it wasn't against you. So you can take that as a mistake or that he later called it off.

[Mr Bean]

Bean, whatever your plan is, it would be nice to let us in on it. Because how do you think it looks to have had the OMSK Pact at one point supporting the rest of us (and not just the MESS, FUN members have been with us too) and then when Skimmer starts issuing threats you publically pull back?

I am a very generous person, Bean. But in context of the game, I am disappointed, to say the least.

If you're planning some kind of diplomatic solution, it'd be nice to let us in on it, don't you think? Otherwise we'll be left wondering why it appears the OMSK decided to abandon us and Libertia when Saddamistan started issuing threats.

Four steps ahead, I have been trying to bring Saddamstain into the International Community. More to the point as mentioned, aside from ABM action those Naval assets do us little good in that theater in that situation. If you think OMSK for a second would support an invasion of Saddamstain you are sadly mistaken.

More to the point I'm seriously worried(In-Game) about a I'm taking you all with me mwhahaha Saddamstain reaction, he views now the entire world is poised to attack him.

By getting OMSK to stand down, and by extension FUN and go on a purely defensive setting we take pressure off him.

Don't mistake it for a second I'm a cold-blooded ruthless motherfucker, which is why I can be deal with Saddamstain even as I deal with Ramsley, even as I recruit Alexander. Even as I plot the Sultan's destruction, he won't deal, he's useless to me and a threat to my investments in the other two leaders.


Tails I win, heads you lose.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Oh and Shep, we would once again like to point out the Jihad is against Lonestar only. Shepnukistan (nor any OMSK member) was not and has not been included in that.

Bullshit.

"To begin, I tell you: I have no intention of launching a Jihad against your nation. The existance of the "Jihadist Invasion Armada" puzzles me as it infuriates you. For my Jihad is against Shepnukistani and Lonestar, my struggle is of the infidels in Terra Libertia.

Well in that case then Yenchin misspoke or something. Because he said after (in OOC) that it wasn't against you. So you can take that as a mistake or that he later called it off.

Alright, my mistake. Sorry. And with the flow of the game let's keep it that way. (against Shepnukistan and LSR)

*goes off computer to deal with real-life fundies, again *

[K. A. Pital]

By the way, why are the dealings of the alliances being kept secret?

Because that's how classified information is shared. It is not disseminated.

And no, the OMSK is not obliged to share any information with anyone, that should be clear. Earlier on Lonestar and Beowulf explained me, when I proposed a "Transparent Testing Memorandum", that classified military data won't get disseminated. We have a similar policy, so no big wonder here.

And with the flow of the game let's keep it that way.

The OMSK will demand the Sultan to call the Jihad against Shepnukistan off, else this would mean declaration of war by the Sultanate against an OMSK nation, and after that... well, let's say the Sultan will most likely die. Bear in mind that the Sultanate is acknowledged as a nation at least by me and Byzantium, and we will act as if it were an act of war by the nation. Because it is.

And because we don't like the Sultanate IC

[RogueIce]

Four steps ahead, I have been trying to bring Saddamstain into the International Community. More to the point as mentioned, aside from ABM action those Naval assets do us little good in that theater in that situation. If you think OMSK for a second would support an invasion of Saddamstain you are sadly mistaken.

Well we weren't planning any invasions. So that's good to know, I guess.

More to the point I'm seriously worried(In-Game) about a I'm taking you all with me mwhahaha Saddamstain reaction, he views now the entire world is poised to attack him.

By getting OMSK to stand down, and by extension FUN and go on a purely defensive setting we take pressure off him.

Aside from the BARCAP between Saddamistan and Terra Libertia, we've been basically setting up to defend ourselves. Everything to the north is protecting me and Baal. Simple as that. Same goes for the FUN deployments and their respective countries, except where they have offered to assist us, and we accepted.

As for the south, we're simply defending Libertia. No more than that.

The whole buildup has been about defense from the beginning, and we've made that as clear as we possibly can. Saddamistan is the only person who's been out attacking people.

Don't mistake it for a second I'm a cold-blooded ruthless motherfucker, which is why I can be deal with Saddamstain even as I deal with Ramsley, even as I recruit Alexander. Even as I plot the Sultan's destruction, he won't deal, he's useless to me and a threat to my investments in the other two leaders.

Aside from your plans to take out the Sultan, which we think would be a huge mistake and counterproductive (unless you want to, you know, invade the Sultanate, a now recognized sovereign nation by several states) we don't mind. We want a stable Libertia and if Saddamistan can be brought into the international community, great.

But it'd be nice if you'd tell us these things instead of running around behind closed doors, making us all wonder why the hell you suddenly pulled a total 180 and seemed to want to start appeasing somebody who launched an unprovoked war of aggression.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I prefer the Sultan not dead thank you. I might consider requesting the Patriarch Ramsley to send him my courtesies.

[K. A. Pital]

If the Sultanate reiterates the Jihad [against Shep] and does not publically call it off, that would be an act of war against an OMSK nation, and we would be OBLIGED to go to war with the Sultanate. Do not try to stop us, this is a legal right now that the Sultanate is a sovereign state and can't just throw "jihaad!" claims around.

[Mr Bean]

Aside from your plans to take out the Sultan, which we think would be a huge mistake and counterproductive (unless you want to, you know, invade the Sultanate, a now recognized sovereign nation by several states) we don't mind. We want a stable Libertia and if Saddamistan can be brought into the international community, great.

The Sultan is little more than an armed thug who surrounds himself with armed thugs. He is little more than typical of your 3rd World strongman bastard. His soldiers are incompetent and they account for a large number of Pirate attacks

Or did, perhaps they will attack Fast Commerce ships in rubber dinghy's lacking ships to do it in.

The other two are not Saint's, Alexander's paranoid and inflexible and a moral prig, and the Ramsley aiming to be a Saint, the old fashion kind with the flaming sword and the lamination's of their women kind, not the John Paul II kind. Each have their own issues, the Sultan's is strait forward, he's a thug, and since GMY started writing him, he's become a religious thug.

But it'd be nice if you'd tell us these things instead of running around behind closed doors, making us all wonder why the hell you suddenly pulled a total 180 and seemed to want to start appeasing somebody who launched an unprovoked war of aggression.

Well the Great Saddam is not about to publish international corresponded between the two of us to let everyone know what's going on, it IS back room dealing. It will be negative in the press and I plan to write that up tomorrow morning as for a time I'm going to get hammered in the International Press for appearing to back down from threats.

Unless my spinsters get their first of course and spin this as the "wise" leader keep the country well out of a war that does not concern them for a people that are only vaugly cared about, Ala Ethiopia.

[RogueIce]

Well the Great Saddam is not about to publish international corresponded between the two of us to let everyone know what's going on, it IS back room dealing. It will be negative in the press and I plan to write that up tomorrow morning as for a time I'm going to get hammered in the International Press for appearing to back down from threats.

Unless my spinsters get their first of course and spin this as the "wise" leader keep the country well out of a war that does not concern them for a people that are only vaugly cared about, Ala Ethiopia.

If you can backchannel with Saddamistan, surely you could have backchanneled with us?

Would save you some grief if you'd brought us into it. The MESS is taking the risks to defend Terra Libertia from unprovoked aggression and when Saddamistan starts making threats the OMSK pulls back? Yes, of course you're getting raked over the coals.

On the other hand, if you'd done us the simply courtesy of letting us know, it could have been reduced. We simply would say that the OMSK is redeploying it's assets to defend their homelands and are continuing to work with us to seek a peaceful resolution to this crisis. We don't even have to hint at your backchannel dialouge with Saddamistan.

Our saying that you're still working with us and the world community would have gone a long way. As it is, you've left us in the dark and we're wondering with the rest of the world why you suddenly backed down when things started to heat up.

[Sea Skimmer]

Now he has demanded the withdrawl of naval assets, assets which were there ONLY to protect the nations of the Central Sea. And he says then he will go to the bargaining table?

Warships capable of accommodating more then one aircraft actually, not your whole fleets. That means Saddamistan is not demanding you remove Halifax class frigates or Flight I and II Burke destroyers, or quite a number of other classes of warship people might be using. It does demand the removal of Tico and Kirov cruisers, aircraft carriers and aviation ships of all kinds, and similar high power offensive surface warships. This is thus not demanding you strip away all defences, nor is any demand made of land based aircraft or ABM missiles.