SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK III

[Mr Bean]

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Have at it

Also our world is called Terra Nova for those who missed the debate laster year.

[Mr Bean]

I’m confused, unless the MESS is only three nations which is much less then I thought. Unless the MESS is considered a single sovereign nation you don’t have a technicality to work with, and if it is a sovereign nation that I’ll just going to amend history. The intent was to allow for basic defensive warships of foreign powers to remain, and for full local fleets to be present, but not the multi aircraft carrying cruiser escorted attack carriers from places a thousand miles away.

Well Bean is keeping his ships around Zoria, some of which I believe violate your terms if I remember right.

At any rate what we could do is send the ships west of Libertia out 500 miles, and claim the ones east are simply operating as a joint protective pact for Adrianpolis, since his country lacks the capability on his own.

But we'd like some kind of public assurances first. Before we started all this, we asked you time and again to provide evidence of that attack on patrol boats and such and were ignored. So you're going to have to do something to convince us you're going to be acting in good faith.

The South Sea's Fleet has operated around Saddamstain before during the Zalbanian criss, and Task Force Zoro has been operating in the straits between Terra Libertia and Saddamstain as well. I get around that by simple and quietly telling Saddamstain about where my fleet is located and asking before I move my carrier anywhere close. Except in the case of Zalbanian incident , but the Great Saddam might have missed that happening.

*Edit, as well I ordered the South Sea's fleet to RTB last night once I had secured the "official" stand-down of all OMSK forces.

[Shroom Man 777]

FUN Force is now Qudlivun's property for the time being, so Saddamistan can't have any objections

[Raj Ahten]

As far as oweing ProTec favours goes, they would like it if everyone could just forgive and forget. (And share intel on possible teerrorist attacks on me, if you recieve any )


Stas, I asked your Justice Minister about arresting some suspects in the bombing of my aircraft right at the beginniong of the latest crisis. I wouldn't blame you at all if you haven't responded to it yet, given the threat of nuclear war.

[Coyote]

Let's see if I read this right:

Saddamistan admits to setting drift mines in open, international waters, in total violation of the LotS accords, and then when a MESS ship gets slammed by one of these illegal mines, it's the MESS's fault?

[Shroom Man 777]

They are dicks.

[Mr Bean]

Let's see if I read this right:

Saddamistan admits to setting drift mines in open, international waters, in total violation of the LotS accords, and then when a MESS ship gets slammed by one of these illegal mines, it's the MESS's fault?

Exactly how dare you ram my mine you bastard?,

I myself do have questions about mining to the 24 mile mark rather than 22. But there is a real danger about lose mines in that area. But hey, who wants to visit the Sultanate anyway? And he does provide clear channels near his territory. Remember the initial reasoning for the mining was simple, preventing megafauna attacks. The increase of mining after that was simple.

The Great Saddamn likes to mine things.
And even better, reason, mines are cheaper than hell.

[Mr Bean]

@Seaskimmer
I don't think you fully grasped the size of our planet yet.

Let this be a helpful visual guide
Yellow lines are 24 nautical miles
Green Lines are 500 nautical miles

You can't have do 24 mile mining 360* around Saddamstain, in places like Zoria, you would have been lucky to get 20 miles worth of mines, and the last few mines you'd would have had to plant in the beaches of Zoria.

In situations like Zor and Shinra where less that 44 miles separate each side, the agreement has been to take what is there and divide by half and each side split it.

Or we could bother Stas to retro-con the map toensure all countries have 50 mile separations form each other, that could work.

[Coyote]

To be honest, I think a bigger world would be, well, better. As it stands it is pretty crowded. But that's just me...

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe a little bigger, but not too much. Mang.

[Vohu Manah]

You can't have do 24 mile mining 360* around Saddamstain, in places like Zoria, you would have been lucky to get 20 miles worth of mines, and the last few mines you'd would have had to plant in the beaches of Zoria.

In situations like Zor and Shinra where less that 44 miles separate each side, the agreement has been to take what is there and divide by half and each side split it.

Or we could bother Stas to retro-con the map toensure all countries have 50 mile separations form each other, that could work.

Mining (as in munitions) at 24nm would be a violation of the LotS since past the 12nm mark (for most nations) is the contiguous zone and that area cannot be shut down to innocent traffic for any reason. In order to be in compliance with the LotS he could mine his territorial waters as he declares them closed for security reasons.

[MKSheppard]

Saddamistan admits to setting drift mines in open, international waters, in total violation of the LotS accords, and then when a MESS ship gets slammed by one of these illegal mines, it's the MESS's fault?

Actually. No. The mine that hit the MESS was a moored mine which had broken free of it's chain and become a drift ime. Statistically, it has a very small chance of happening (breaking it's chain); so It becomes more likely if you do a massive mining program.

[MKSheppard]

We didn't put our ships right up to the 24 mile limit. They stayed further south (or west, in my case). Our aircraft have been patrolling the 24 mile limit for Libertia, keeping as wide a berth from Saddamistan as possible.

Once again, the MESS lies; like with the Jihad against Shepnukistan; and claiming that it's ships are immune to Saddamistan's 500 mile limit; How are we supposed to trust you with these constant lies and evasions?

First, let's bring up a map of the area:



Lonestar's posts make repeated references to the Saddamistani Sea (boardings within it, etc), which means they are within the danger zone; and then he says:

The Texas CSG rounded the Western tip of Saddamistan this morning and is currently transiting the strait to meet up with the Tian Xia carrier group off the East coast of Terra Libertia.

Looking at the map; yup, the chances of him hitting a mine as part of his transit of the strait.......yup; high.

[Coyote]

Once again, the MESS lies; like with the Jihad against Shepnukistan;

'scusethefuckouttayou? Many people here were under the impression that Shepnukistan was under jihad, in fact when the relevant post was re-posted it appeared that way as well, so that Yenchin had to explain that it had been considered rescinded and retro'd.

and claiming that it's ships are immune to Saddamistan's 500 mile limit

--Saddam hisself said that ships that lived in the 500 mile limit were allowed to be there, and since there are major MESS nations that live in that realm, then by default they get to stay.

Why you're even giving his BS claim of 500nm any weight at all is... suspicious.

Lonestar's posts make repeated references to the Saddamistani Sea (boardings within it, etc), which means they are within the danger zone...

And Colonel Khaddafi claims the whole Gulf of Sirte in violation of international agreement, and we've sent carriers in there, too, with international law backing us up.

[MKSheppard]

'scusethefuckouttayou? Many people here were under the impression that Shepnukistan was under jihad, in fact when the relevant post was re-posted it appeared that way as well, so that Yenchin had to explain that it had been considered rescinded and retro'd.

I'll let your brave Chief Administrator of the MESS answer this:

Oh and Shep, we would once again like to point out the Jihad is against Lonestar only. Shepnukistan (nor any OMSK member) was not and has not been included in that.

He of course has poor reading comprehension.

"To begin, I tell you: I have no intention of launching a Jihad against your nation. The existance of the "Jihadist Invasion Armada" puzzles me as it infuriates you. For my Jihad is against Shepnukistani and Lonestar, my struggle is of the infidels in Terra Libertia.

Why you're even giving his BS claim of 500nm any weight at all is... suspicious."

I'm not. I'm just pointing out the fact that your brave Chief Administrator of the MESS tries to wriggle out of it on a technicality:

Oh no. But as I pointed out, he made an exception for "nations bordering Saddamistan". Since myself, Baal and Adrianpolis border Saddamistan, technically speaking the MESS shouldn't have to withdraw at all.

Therefore we are in compliance.

Completely ignoring the LSR, Tian Xia, and Wilkonian fleets floating around the region; who do not directly boarder Saddamistan.

And then your Chief Administrator of the MESS tries to claim that there is no way LSR ships could have hit a mine; despite the LSR ships transiting the strait between Saddamistan and Terra Libertia; which is full of minefields.

[Master_Baerne]

Shep, OMSK doesn't like Saddamistan either, unless there's some sort of massive policy shift underway. Why are you taking his side?

[Coyote]

MESS is getting all kinds of reasons --not!-- to make efforts to work together on international coalitions. We get accused of warmongering and this and that; then, when we finally do come together for something that seems theoretically unifying, the first thing that happens is OMSK huddles, whispers among themselves, comes up with a secret plan, starts to implement it, then grouses at us for being out of step, and accuses us of stirring the pot.

If Canissia was protecting something worth protecting, it might be worth it; but covering one little fuckstick from another, bigger fuckstick while being back-channeled by ones "partners" just doesn't pay my fucking bills.

You want to play compliance with MESS ships in the 500 mile zone? Great. Canissia's pulling, and I recommend my allies do the same. You guys can buttfuck each other until your anal tracts bleed. And while I'm at it, if any Sodom-istan ship approaches within 500 miles of my territiry, it's going to the bottom.

[PeZook]

Ok, what the fuck? OMSK pulls out all of a sudden?

So,what...has there been a deal struck with Saddamistan? Why the hell don't we know anything about that?

And why is everybody trying to technicalize their way out of ridiculous Saddamistani claims, rather than telling him to fuck off, or offer reasonable terms? So far he's only said "Kepp the carriers away, or else!"

If he said "Keep the carriers away and we can work something out" that would be...a little different.

[Coyote]

Ok, what the fuck? OMSK pulls out all of a sudden?

So,what...has there been a deal struck with Saddamistan? Why the hell don't we know anything about that?.

Bean's gone all Neville Chamberlain/Mahatma Gandhi on us, and won't pull us into the drum circle so we know what's up. And we're risking lives and all that for... Libertopia? While we get part of the blame for creating the trouble? Saywhut? Shoulda' let Saddam pave them in the first place.

[MKSheppard]

Shep, OMSK doesn't like Saddamistan either, unless there's some sort of massive policy shift underway. Why are you taking his side?

Shepnukistan's view is that Saddamistan, while being an isolationist dickhead -- he's doing us all a favor by blowing up Jihadis -- while the MESS is falling head over heels to protect them.

[RogueIce]

Forgive us for wanting to protect innocent lives just because their leadership wants to be a dick.

And you little Shitstain. I told you that Yenchin said IN THE OOC THREAD that the Jihad was NOT against you. And when you pointed out the IU posts saying otherwise, I AGREED THERE WAS A PROBLEM AND SAID YENCHIN WOULD HAVE TO CLARIFY.

Furthermore, as for the LSRN deployment, yes they were there to GET INTO POSITION. But once they had done that (long before your little mine post) they deployed into the area I mentioned.

YOU DO NOT RP LONESTAR. You tried it once and now you're pulling it AGAIN.

Lonestar knows EXACTLY where his ships are deployed because he has seen the map. Would you like me to post it up here for you?

This goes back to the previous spy sat thing. OTHER PLAYERS DO NOT KNOW WHERE WE ARE UNLESS WE TELL YOU. You went off OLD and OUT OF DATE information. They are in the sea between Libertia and Adrianpolis.

Now, I was being nice and accepting that mine hit as a lucky break. Shit happens. And I even had them redeploy to get out into a bit more open sea. But since you seem to be confused about where they were deployed to begin with, I'm tempted to protest that mine hit as not happening.

As to the rest of it, the OMSK had at one point been with us in condemning Saddamistan and had even moved forces to protect Libertia and the Central Sea. And then, all of a sudden (AFTER Saddamistan made threats I should add) you turn around and go back to your safe and cozy waters, well out of the conflict zone. And you don't give us a single reason why in game.

So yes, we are now suspicious of the OMSK's motives as I said before. Had you deigned to inform us of your super-secret plan, things might be different now. But since you haven't and Shep is apparently hellbent on starting trouble with us, we have no reason to trust you.

And OOC, if you go through with your secret peace plan and leave the MESS hanging on the front lines, risking OUR necks to defend Libertia while you have your nice safe backroom deals, and don't even give us the Goddamned courtesy of even a heads up of "Hey we're trying to make negotiations here" then you can expect very negative diplomatic relations from us when it all comes out.

Coyote's right. I am getting sick and tired of the OMSK constantly playing the "MESS are evil warmongers" card, and my patience is about at an end. I have been extremely nice and have constantly worked, again and again with Stas and the rest of the MESS to resolve some of these issues.

Remember the LEO thing? You know why Beowulf agreed to it in the end? Because I ASKED HIM TO. But if all you are going to do is constantly try to paint us as warmongers then frankly I don't see why I should fucking bother anymore. You can have your Goddamn Cold War that you seem to have such a fucking hard on for.

[Mr Bean]

Excuse me RougeIce, OMSK was not the ones to try to play the brinkmanship's game with Saddamstain. We are not the ones who wanted to surround Saddamstain with enough combat power to pound it flat.

What has Saddamstain done so far? He's bombed the hell out of any type of craft or boat, he has attacked Sultanate strongholds and he's pounded the hell out of targets of opportunity.

Has he launched attacks into Supreme General Alexander's territory? No, what about Ramsley's? No, what he's done is a an attack on a single Warlord who he believes or has intelligence to prove is plotting to over-throw him. Keep in mind, when I wrote Sultan Ibrahim, I painted him as a escaped Saddamstain national and know criminal who had changed his name and got a big-enough of a criminal gang togther to declare himself warlord and secure a chunk of Liberaltopia.

The fact that Saddamstain would sooner or later come after him is no surprise. And when he did what happened? The Mess tried to surround him and kowtow him into backing down, or paying reparations or whatever the fuck you were planning on.


Lets review the chain of events

1. Sultan Ibrahim begins taking prisoners and his territory becomes a know Pirate Haven
2. Strike on Ibrahim to rescue prionsers
3. Ibrahim starts declaring Jihad
4. Saddamstain recieves intelligence that Ibrahim has them on his list.
5. Saddamstain reacts and begins tearing the Sultante down around Ibrahim.

By removing his fleet, bombing his stockpiles and destroying the people
s belief in his control Saddamstain has now neutralized Ibrahim's iron control over his people. Had things stopped here, the Sultante would have fallen and either someone-new would have arisen or Ramsley would have taken over the area having both the troops and support to do so.

Instead what happend
6. The Mess beings surging ships into the area and plays Johnny Big-Dick and tries to intimidate Saddamstain. Lonestar and Beowulf both order fleets into the area, The Shinra Republic surges it's ships out. Soon other Mess fleets will join them

7. Meanwhile the UKB Task force Zoro still continues to operate off Northern Libertialtopia coast in Piracy suppression role. The Saddamstain Navy and the UKB Task force share intelligence and make regular contacts. The Saddamstain Fleet is still at normal readiness rates for on-going strike operations.

8. Saddamstain, intimidates right back, beings hitting they have Chemical and Biological weapons on hand and the ability to use them, a clear effort to try to make the Mess Back down

9. The Mess sends in more ships to ensure Saddamstain gets the point, doubling what they had before and ordering a total of six carriers into the area(It's six right?)

10. The UKB withdraws it's ships because of the fact the Mess deploying fleets surrounding the Saddamstain mainland make Piracy supression pointless. They are placed in ABM shields around The Kingdom of Zor.

10A. Most FUN nations begin battery down the hatches and testing to see if they are ready for an attack.

11. Mess nations go into full ohshit mode. Leaders are in bunkers or offshore. People are ordered into shelters. The Mess nations prepare for chemical war and threaten Nuclear response.
Fun and OMSK follow suit into ohshit mode. Nuclear response is not threated. (Not that Fun can't and Sheppard has no other setting)

12. Saddamstain on threats of Nukes, responds by demonstrating his OWN nuclear weapons which in fine tradition of previous nuclear programs he has kept secret. He also begins massively decoy mining his coasts but still keeps his fleet in port(For the most part)

13. And here's the kicker, the UKB uses it's back door channels to directly speak to the Great Saddam and work out an agreement to and here's the kicker. De-escalate the situation! The single OMSK carrier in the region returns to port. Saddam respones by declaring no ill will towards OMSK and turns his attention to the Mess

14. The Mess keeps on keeping on.

Pure and simple, Saddamstain has no invasion plan of Terra Liberita, he never did, he did have plans to remove the ability for an attack to form in the Sultante and threaten his country with rebel or terrorists attacks and he would have stopped there were it not for Mess pressure.

Is something wrong in my time-line? Has Saddamstain launched broad attacks against the people of all of Terra Liberta? No he limited his attacks to one Warlord and smashed his power zones. He has not bombed every squre meter of every city ala-world war II, he has not fire-bombed the Sultante farms or similar.

He had a two stage plan to bomb the "fleet" (Any seaworthy ship) then bomb know Sultante buildings. When the Sultan's men retreated from the city and formed camps, or advanced to the coast and dug in to stop the "invasion" he could launch stage two to take out those fighters as well and be done with the whole situation.

Had he used Chemical weapons in stage two, there would have been an outcry. Had he used Biological weapons there would have been an International Firm response as with Zalbania.

Had he used only conventional weapons would have anyone given a shit?

However he did neither, why? Because there was already Mess ships off his shore by the time phase I was done. Phase II never began because of it, and we've been in an increasing situation since then because the Mess keeps trying to make him back down. And the Great Saddamn will never back down, to do so would be to destroy his power.

At every turn you have failed to read the situation correctly.

[Coyote]

6. The Mess beings surging ships into the area and plays Johnny Big-Dick and tries to intimidate Saddamstain. Lonestar and Beowulf both order fleets into the area, The Shinra Republic surges it's ships out. Soon other Mess fleets will join them

And y'all were right there with us.

13. And here's the kicker, the UKB uses it's back door channels to directly speak to the Great Saddam and work out an agreement to and here's the kicker. De-escalate the situation! The single OMSK carrier in the region returns to port. Saddam respones by declaring no ill will towards OMSK and turns his attention to the Mess

While conveniently not telling us-- not only just a petty stick in the eye of the MESS, but leaving us on alert, in the dark, and ready to shoot. And you say nothing about the de-escalation plan even as tension ratchets up because of the mine-- which an OMSK player posted with Saddamistan player's permission (!?).

Were you guys HOPING for a nuclear war that you could blame on the MESS? Because we tried to fucking help?

You know damn good and well if you'd brought me and Rogue in on your secret de-escalation plan we would have been receptive and talked down our comrades, but instead you just pull back on your own and then get your backs up and act all indignant when we're upset about it. Don't play all fucking innocent with me on this, you're smart enough to see what's laid out.

[Raj Ahten]

To be fair Mr. Bean there was no real way to know Sadaamistan's intentions as they don't really tell anyone what they are. They also act in an agressive manner and are generally bad world citizens who follow none of the conventions others have agreed upon. Not having normalized relations makes everything a hell of a lot less clear and makes everyone ready to believe the worst. The crisis is their damn fault for attacking libertopia at a time when even a much smaller attack by ProTec got them a warning of destruction. (Not that you'll hear ProTec issue any opinion what so ever )

On a seperate issue, who controls Alexander needs to be worked out a bit. So far you and me have been sharing control in an ad hoc manner, with you making pretty much all of the big decisions, while I've handled some troop movements and internal affairs. I really don't care who we have control him, I would just like the matter decided. I would also be willing to continue our current way of doing things as well, as long as we decide who makes alliance and attack decisions.

[Coyote]

At every turn you have failed to read the situation correctly.

No, you see, you took a fucking chapter out the book, rewrote in invisible ink, and then made allusions to it in public posts while arranging everything in private posts, and leaving us hanging in the goddamn breeze. You purposefully maneuvered us into being chumps so you could score points.