SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK III

[CmdrWilkens]

Lets review the chain of events

1. Sultan Ibrahim begins taking prisoners and his territory becomes a know Pirate Haven
2. Strike on Ibrahim to rescue prionsers
3. Ibrahim starts declaring Jihad
4. Saddamstain recieves intelligence that Ibrahim has them on his list.
5. Saddamstain reacts and begins tearing the Sultante down around Ibrahim.

Lets do the REAL timeline:

1) The MESS, with public acceptance of even Stas (I won't say OMSK as a whole because I don't believe you had a vote on it), declares that no armed intervention or attempt to influence the TerraLibertia conflict with weapons would be acceptable.
2) Saddam WITH NO JUSTIFICATION bombs the hell out of part of TerraLibertia including consistent hostile intrusions into the airspace
3) The MESS issues a statment, and begins activating naval forces, demanding proof for the reasons behind Saddamistan's aggression.
4) The rest of the world joins the MESS in condemning the hostilities
5) Saddamistan tests nuclear weapons and begins making threatnening statements to the world at large
6) YOU get OMSK to back down and begin your campaign to paint the MESS as warmonger's


That's the real chain of events here. As of yet not a SINGLE hostile action has been taken by the MESS while Saddamistan has attacked, with no pretext, another nation.

Stop trying to pretend you are on some moral high ground here. You decided to be the cunning little dick that sacrificed as many mess sailors as it takes to get the best deal for your group. Fine that's your right to look out for your own but don't for a second pretend you have some claim to moral high ground when you are using us as a stick in your "negotiations." Sure lets accept the 500mi limit and we can have a grand ol time where I take what is no the largest operational nuclear sub force and sink every fucking ship I can find until I run out of torpedoes since your entire navy is within my 500mi limit. If you wnat to shrot circuit international diplomacy and give in to bullying then fine you can RP that way...

*side note this is the OOC thread folks if its IC then it shoudl be in the other thread*

...but you can definately expect that those of us who have actually been trying to enforce some sort of interntional standards of cooperation and agreement will politely note that you've decided that bullying is cause enough to reject the agreements we have cemented into international law.

Side not to Shep. Don't fucking RP anybody who isn't you without their permission. Don't pretend to fucking know where we have deployed our assets and which assets are actually there unless we actually tell you.

[Mr Bean]

And y'all were right there with us.

The OMSK Fleets never went within 500 miles of Saddamstain, Bzynatium and the Red Technocracy deployed their fleets to the central sea to help defend FUN. They did not deploy their fleet off the Saddamstain coast. Meanwhile Sheppard contiuned to send flights to Saddamstain, he too wants Ibrahim dead. That's IT that's as far as things had gone on the OMSK side of the house.

I was the exception, my fleet was within range of Saddamstain, but then it was more to act as ABM shield than hostile fleet. My carrier went along because if as mentioned Saddamstain send tons of conventional shore based Anti-ship missiles first then launched his nukes my shield would have done nothing. Had Zoria been farther away I would have left it at just moving Zoro to Zoria and left the South Fleet at home.

While conveniently not telling us-- not only just a petty stick in the eye of the MESS, but leaving us on alert, in the dark, and ready to shoot. And you say nothing about the de-escalation plan even as tension ratchets up because of the mine-- which an OMSK player posted with Saddamistan player's permission (!?).

Personally I can't speak for the sea mine situation, Sheppard, Sea-Skimmer I can't help you there. But second it should have been made damn clear by the the way all OMSK nations began standing down one by one and announcing it, that OMSK had decided that going to high alert just because the Mess did was silly, Saddamstain poses no threat to us, in fact he helped us right the hell out with his attack on the Sultanate.

Were you guys HOPING for a nuclear war that you could blame on the MESS? Because we tried to fucking help?

You know damn good and well if you'd brought me and Rogue in on your secret de-escalation plan we would have been receptive and talked down our comrades, but instead you just pull back on your own and then get your backs up and act all indignant when we're upset about it. Don't play all fucking innocent with me on this, you're smart enough to see what's laid out.

The channels are there Coyote but there's only so much I can do, I look after me and mine first, is that so hard to understand? You think I was just going to sit there while you and Saddamstain traded nukes? Fall-out does not stop at natural borders.

I had to act and act quickly to change this from Saddam VS the World to Saddam VS everyone but OMSK then VS the Mess, then prehaps VS no one. By getting OMSK to back down where I have the most leverage I can then get FUN to back down using my favors gained from the OMSK stand-down. And maybe then if I pull that off I can try and convince the Mess to reign in Tian Xia and the Lonestar Republic.

[Coyote]

The channels are there Coyote but there's only so much I can do, I look after me and mine first, is that so hard to understand? You think I was just going to sit there while you and Saddamstain traded nukes? Fall-out does not stop at natural borders.

You couldn't even have faxed us a copy of the plan? This world has cell phones, I've posted making grand, sweeping national coordinations off my cell phone-- it was too much work to yell a flunky "better call Rogue or Coyote, they'll need to know what's up". 'Cause we were on alert, and thought we had international coalition backing because ALL of us were trying to broker peace on Libertopia and making a concerted international action was part of that.

Your actions INCREASED the chances of war through accident & misunderstandings. In a real world situation, this would have been foolishly risky-- not a Kissinger move, a Bush-II move.

I had to act and act quickly to change this from Saddam VS the World to Saddam VS everyone but OMSK then VS the Mess, then prehaps VS no one. By getting OMSK to back down where I have the most leverage I can then get FUN to back down using my favors gained from the OMSK stand-down. And maybe then if I pull that off I can try and convince the Mess to reign in Tian Xia and the Lonestar Republic.

But you're changing the playing field and leaving people out there, exposed, not part of the game plan, and nervous with their fingers on triggers.

Look at it from our point of view:

You suddenly announce secret negotiations with Saddam and OMSK.
OMSK forces pull away, no warning.
OMSK player writes up a mine strike in conjunction with Saddam player.
Same OMSK player starts parroting Saddam player talking points.

To us it looks like either OMSK has decided to back Saddamistan and watch as war corks off with MESS/Saddam; or OMSK even joins with Saddamistan.

We're left in the dark. We have to fill in the blanks with our imaginations because we've been given zero information. Out of nowhere, you guys back off and make nice noises with Saddam. What are we supposed to think?

VERY irresponsible when people's hands are hovering over nuclear triggers. Especially when immediate communication is right there to be had. Stas could have called me or Rogue.

[MKSheppard]

Don't pretend to fucking know where we have deployed our assets and which assets are actually there unless we actually tell you.

So you're telling me that Lonestar magically teleported his fleet through the strait between Saddamistan and Terra Libertia; and never once ran across the 30,000~ or so (rough guesstimate) mines that Saddamistan has sown; in a strait only roughly 50 miles wide at it's best?

[Mr Bean]

On a seperate issue, who controls Alexander needs to be worked out a bit. So far you and me have been sharing control in an ad hoc manner, with you making pretty much all of the big decisions, while I've handled some troop movements and internal affairs. I really don't care who we have control him, I would just like the matter decided. I would also be willing to continue our current way of doing things as well, as long as we decide who makes alliance and attack decisions.

Have at it Raj, take control of him full-time, he's yours to run from here on in. I release all control over him. I wrote all three I ran all three, now three different people will run what I made. Fine by me.

That's the real chain of events here. As of yet not a SINGLE hostile action has been taken by the MESS while Saddamistan has attacked, with no pretext, another nation.

I see your time-line is my time line with all the points removed congratulations on how you turned a 14 point time line into 6 and add in things like the fact it was all planned out.

Second Liberaltopia is not a nation, no more than Kurdistan is a nation, it's a dream, it's a zone of control but until after the fact no one had recognized ANY of the warlord's as legitimate rulers except Ramsley. I do understand that the Mess and several other members agreed not to let anyone intefere with the Liberaltopia conflict.
Except... What about ProTec? They've been in, arming and actively assisting one side in the conflict now, they are part of a Sovereign nation that is directly interfering with the conflict

And where was the international outrage? It was not instant as it was in this situation. ProTec is apparently even bigger and better equipped than Blackwater, and it begins operating in Liberaltopia... and there's no complaints from the international community.
So it seemed to me, that agreement had been undone via precedent.
ProTec is still operating in Liberaltopia as we speak(So to speak)

Stop trying to pretend you are on some moral high ground here. You decided to be the cunning little dick that sacrificed as many mess sailors as it takes to get the best deal for your group. Fine that's your right to look out for your own but don't for a second pretend you have some claim to moral high ground when you are using us as a stick in your "negotiations." Sure lets accept the 500mi limit and we can have a grand ol time where I take what is no the largest operational nuclear sub force and sink every fucking ship I can find until I run out of torpedoes since your entire navy is within my 500mi limit. If you wnat to shrot circuit international diplomacy and give in to bullying then fine you can RP that way...

Did I say I held the Moral High-ground? No I said I had a clue and a grasp on what Saddamstain's motivations and goals are and I did not react to the crisis in a highly aggressive manor. Unlike certain members of the Mess who have shown a pattern of highly aggressive actions and are predictable in their responses.

If you want to find your lose cannon look no farther than the Lonestar Republic, all Mess V anybody has begun because of his actions.

You couldn't even have faxed us a copy of the plan? This world has cell phones, I've posted making grand, sweeping national coordinations off my cell phone-- it was too much work to yell a flunky "better call Rogue or Coyote, they'll need to know what's up". 'Cause we were on alert, and thought we had international coalition backing because ALL of us were trying to broker peace on Libertopia and making a concerted international action was part of that.

We are not on good terms Coyote, in fact your the member I have the best ties with commercially. Other than that I don't have ties with the other members of the Mess. I have close ties with FUN members, I have close ties with OMSK, I have tentative ties with you, and only you of all Mess nations.

You don't trust me, and I don't trust you, and the actions of your fellow members have done nothing to bridge the gap. I have extended my hand before. In the Space industry, in Atlantis, in aid, in trade, and with the exception of Atlantis I have been rebuffed time after time.

Your actions INCREASED the chances of war through accident & misunderstandings. In a real world situation, this would have been foolishly risky-- not a Kissinger move, a Bush-II move.

Had it been Bush the II I would have also provided Saddamstain with satellite intelligence of your fleet's positions and dispositions. I have that ability with my space program. Had I been Bush the II, or more correctly Dick Cheney the 1st I would have done everything in my power to kick off a war between the two sides. Everything from false flag operations to actively promising Saddamstain UKB backing.

The issue I faced is both work and sleep. While I slept the mine situation happened, while I worked, the Mess gets a hair up it's ass about the OMSK draw-down even as I was working out how to best pull off the FUN draw down.

Speaking of which, it's a good damn thing not one fucking member of the mess had the idea to PM me and ask what the hell was going on. I'm sorry I did not do all the fucking leg-work myself. I know I should not expect any member of the Mess to lift one fucking finger and dial my number

So to speak

[Raj Ahten]

Mr. Bean, if you do truly want to have Alexander keep him. I asked you because I didn't want to step on any toes, and I've controlled some of his actions in the past, such as Alexander taking out a rogue warlord, with the criticism of that being I got how professional Alexander's forces were wrong, not that I wrote the event in the first place.

This may have been a bad time to bring the matter up, but I wanted to know just how far my authority went as the warlords aren't someones nation, where the rules are quite clear. (the warlords seem to be a touchstone for crisis really.)

As far as ProTec being in Libertopia, they are a corporation who has been hired by Alexander. ProTec bases out of a country (Indhopal) that has remained neutral despite the increasing threat of war so they can avoid being seen as a pawn of one of the alliance systems. Honestly ProTec is in a murky legal situation, but they see themselves as being no different from any other corporation accepting a contract and so far they are operating within the loose international laws of this world. It should also be said that ProTec is safeguarding three refugee camps and guarding aid workers at no profit in Libertopia. ProTec has also never sold arms to Alexander, as I was pretty sure I would be bombed flat for doing so. ProTec also dos not operate outside of Alexander's territory anymore, not even to go after terrorists who killed their own men. Therefore my uinfluence is really no greater than the expatriates in Ramsleys territory, who surely also affect the balance of power in the region.

In my last post in the game thread I put in that bit about ProTec wondering aboput its future in Libertopia because they realise it is a very precarious situation, and they would rather not be a pawn for the great powers.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I won't mind if someone else takes over Alexander, because as the Emperor of Constantinople, I have been busy at machinations and I would like some kind of reaction. In fact, Protec came to mind with regard to dealing with the Sultan's band of merry rebels.

[Coyote]

You couldn't even have faxed us a copy of the plan? This world has cell phones, I've posted making grand, sweeping national coordinations off my cell phone-- it was too much work to yell a flunky "better call Rogue or Coyote, they'll need to know what's up". 'Cause we were on alert, and thought we had international coalition backing because ALL of us were trying to broker peace on Libertopia and making a concerted international action was part of that.

We are not on good terms Coyote, in fact your the member I have the best ties with commercially. Other than that I don't have ties with the other members of the Mess. I have close ties with FUN members, I have close ties with OMSK, I have tentative ties with you, and only you of all Mess nations.

You don't trust me, and I don't trust you, and the actions of your fellow members have done nothing to bridge the gap. I have extended my hand before. In the Space industry, in Atlantis, in aid, in trade, and with the exception of Atlantis I have been rebuffed time after time.

This certainly did not help. I certainly did not rebuff you, I've gone out of my way to work with Stas. You an I don't work together much because there's just not much reason to work together.

The issue I faced is both work and sleep. While I slept the mine situation happened, while I worked, the Mess gets a hair up it's ass about the OMSK draw-down even as I was working out how to best pull off the FUN draw down.

I'm sorry you didn't have good coordination or situational awareness, but again I say that someone should have considered the ramifications of what was taking place.

Speaking of which, it's a good damn thing not one fucking member of the mess had the idea to PM me and ask what the hell was going on. I'm sorry I did not do all the fucking leg-work myself. I know I should not expect any member of the Mess to lift one fucking finger and dial my number

Maybe so, but you and your team had the initiative. You arranged the back-channel communications; you issued the movement orders.

Imagine this:
In the field, you're the squad leader; fire team A and fire team B are bounding towards an enemy machinegun nest. Suddenly, you and Team A bound into the forest, and just stop talking. You don't call out you're in position, you don't announce that you're in good or bad cover, etc. In fact, you see a better position and pick up and move, leaving B Team in the dark.

It's a WTF moment, to be sure.

You initiated movement; you need to follow through. Do we stay in position? Are we supposed to provide pressure while you provide a graceful exit? We need to know the plan, since it's your plan. On top of that, not only were we left in the dark, but we started taking political flak from one of your hacks-- not conducive to communication. We don't know that Shep is acting on his own; his actions --in coordination with Skim-- happened after you made it obvious you had a secret pow-wow with the guy who was supposed to be the enemy.

You and I had thin relations, but we had some. Stas had good relations with me, someone couldn't have clued us in?

I guess from here on we'll be sure to call every 12 hours to ask if there's any plans we should know about, eh?

[CmdrWilkens]

Don't pretend to fucking know where we have deployed our assets and which assets are actually there unless we actually tell you.

So you're telling me that Lonestar magically teleported his fleet through the strait between Saddamistan and Terra Libertia; and never once ran across the 30,000~ or so (rough guesstimate) mines that Saddamistan has sown; in a strait only roughly 50 miles wide at it's best?

1st off you stated that this happend AT SEA:

On Tue May 13, 2008 2:01 am

Somewhere in the Saddamistani Sea, off the coast of Terra Libertia

You didn't post this as happening in the straights you lying fucktard you said this happend at SEA.

2nd off NOBODY has transited the TL/Saddamistani STRAIGHT. Lonestar transited the Saddamistani/Adrianopolis straight but that was also at least a week ago in-game.


3rd off you didn't post that this happened a week and a half ago when the transit was made you posted that this JUST happened. Lonestar has been on station SOUTH-EAST of me (right now the Wilkonian forces are the closest to Saddamistan thought they remain well over the horizon from even the 22nmn limit) for more than a week.

It doesn't even matter how likely or not likely a mine hit is. What does matter is that YOU placed Lonestar in a location where he was no longer. As is I would argue voiciferously that you posted an event which CANNOT have occured and which caused you to RP another nation. YOU placed Lonestar in a location where he was not.

YOU fucking placed lonestar in a specific place within the Saddamistani Sea which suited YOUR story and related not at ALL to where he actually was. YOU placed him close to TL when I can say right now that he is located no where NEAR the coast of TL. He wasn't within 100 miles of the coast of TL. YOU put him close to the TL coast, YOU tried to place him in the straights and that is not the case.


I am officially stating that this was bullshit on your part which needs to be retconned. You placed lonestar in a locaiton where he was not and you did so without his permission.

[MKSheppard]

If we're going to get into goddamn semantics games, I'll fucking put a 100 megaton device on each of the MESS' fucking capital cities and put an end to this bullshit once and for all.

[CmdrWilkens]

]
That's the real chain of events here. As of yet not a SINGLE hostile action has been taken by the MESS while Saddamistan has attacked, with no pretext, another nation.

I see your time-line is my time line with all the points removed congratulations on how you turned a 14 point time line into 6 and add in things like the fact it was all planned out.

I'm wondering how you get a 14 point list since you only gave 5. I'm also wondering how exaclty you mean "all planned out" unless of course you are talking about your decision to fuck over everybody to score some points.

Second Liberaltopia is not a nation, no more than Kurdistan is a nation, it's a dream, it's a zone of control but until after the fact no one had recognized ANY of the warlord's as legitimate rulers except Ramsley. I do understand that the Mess and several other members agreed not to let anyone intefere with the Liberaltopia conflict.

So basically you are sayin that we have a sound basis for ALL of what has come since. Thank you. (emphasis mine)

Except... What about ProTec? They've been in, arming and actively assisting one side in the conflict now, they are part of a Sovereign nation that is directly interfering with the conflict

And where was the international outrage? It was not instant as it was in this situation. ProTec is apparently even bigger and better equipped than Blackwater, and it begins operating in Liberaltopia... and there's no complaints from the international community.

So it seemed to me, that agreement had been undone via precedent.
ProTec is still operating in Liberaltopia as we speak(So to speak)

Hmm odd enough that
1) There was internaitonal outrage
2) ProTec is a COMPANY not a government
3) Pressure was being brought on Raj's government to clamp down on ProTec

So basically your whole supposition that we freely let ProTec ship arms in is bullshit of the highest order. Keep practicing and you can help run McCain's campaign.

Did I say I held the Moral High-ground? No I said I had a clue and a grasp on what Saddamstain's motivations and goals are and I did not react to the crisis in a highly aggressive manor. Unlike certain members of the Mess who have shown a pattern of highly aggressive actions and are predictable in their responses.

If you want to find your lose cannon look no farther than the Lonestar Republic, all Mess V anybody has begun because of his actions.

Yup because Lonestar sank those patrol boats and flew recon sorties to prepare air strikes and announced publicly that he was placing nuke tipped cruise missiles onboard subs and sending them out to threaten everyone...yup that sure was Lonestar.

Your actions INCREASED the chances of war through accident & misunderstandings. In a real world situation, this would have been foolishly risky-- not a Kissinger move, a Bush-II move.

I'd appreciate it if you'd attribute Coyote's remarks to him and not me. Not becuause I disagree but because I didn't say them.

[Coyote]

Hey, Bear, I specifically said that MESS, FUN and Bear Republic could still enter Canissian territory.

[CmdrWilkens]

If we're going to get into goddamn semantics games, I'll fucking put a 100 megaton device on each of the MESS' fucking capital cities and put an end to this bullshit once and for all.

SEMANTICS games? You fucking decided where lonestar was and you decided so without consulting him to find out where he actually was. That's fucking RPing another person.

Tell me how did you know where he was? How did you know he was "off the coast of Terra Libertia?" How could you possibly know that information when it has never been provided.

As for powergaming like you suggest I will simply take my subs (which you probably can't stop having sold off all of yours) and take some MESS nukes and turn Shepnukistan into a fucking parking lot with the next post. Don't turn this into a pissing contest.

You decided to blow up one of Lonestar's ships and you didn't bother figuring out if it was at all likely. In the space between TL/Adrianopolis/Saddamistan...that's where Lonestar is and if you can tell me its more than a 1 in 1000 chance that an unmoored mine would float all that way and strike him some 100-250nm from TL and 150-300nm from Saddamistan then maybe that's fine but there is a MINISCULE chance of such an event actually happening in the open sea where the ships actually are.

[Mr Bean]

I'm sorry you didn't have good coordination or situational awareness, but again I say that someone should have considered the ramifications of what was taking place.

Let me be blunt, if I had asked, ok guys, everyone go home, false alarm, what would the Mess have done to my request

A. Obey
B. Ignore
C.Tell me to fuck off
D. Tell me where to stick it, THEN go fuck off

Maybe so, but you and your team had the initiative. You arranged the back-channel communications; you issued the movement orders.

Imagine this:
In the field, you're the squad leader; fire team A and fire team B are bounding towards an enemy machinegun nest. Suddenly, you and Team A bound into the forest, and just stop talking. You don't call out you're in position, you don't announce that you're in good or bad cover, etc. In fact, you see a better position and pick up and move, leaving B Team in the dark.

Lets modify your situation
Just one ever so slight change, lets remove your ability to command fire Team A OR Fire Team B, and instead you must convice Fire Team A(Who's NCO does not like or trust you) and you must also interdependently convince Fire Team B, because Fire Team B votes and unless you convince every member of Frie Team B, they ignore your orders or only half follow them.

I think that's a bit closer to the idea of me trying to convince fourteen hostile countries to back off one.

Lets make it a better comparsion
This is equivalent to Gordon Brown, PM of Britan trying to convince Georgia to lower gas taxes. And hoping the rest of the US follows suit

I guess from here on we'll be sure to call every 12 hours to ask if there's any plans we should know about, eh?

Oh I don't know about that, maybe once per Global Crisis might be enough.

[Coyote]

I'm sorry you didn't have good coordination or situational awareness, but again I say that someone should have considered the ramifications of what was taking place.

Let me be blunt, if I had asked, ok guys, everyone go home, false alarm, what would the Mess have done to my request

A. Obey
B. Ignore
C.Tell me to fuck off
D. Tell me where to stick it, THEN go fuck off

Well, it really depends on what you said-- and, yes, as well as how and to who. Rogue and I have been very open to working with OMSK and others.

Lets modify your situation
Just one ever so slight change, lets remove your ability to command fire Team A OR Fire Team B, and instead you must convice Fire Team A(Who's NCO does not like or trust you) and you must also interdependently convince Fire Team B, because Fire Team B votes and unless you convince every member of Frie Team B, they ignore your orders or only half follow them.

I don't know about that-- we were working well together and we were in an internationally coordinated action. MESS, OMSK and FUN all were on the same sheet of music-- right up to the secret meeting.

I think that's a bit closer to the idea of me trying to convince fourteen hostile countries to back off one.

I'd thought it was evident that we didn't want war, and Rogue and I both try to avoid war and aim for reconciliation. But every time something bubbles up, the headlong push to make a conflict kicks in-- it's like a reflex action or something.

I guess from here on we'll be sure to call every 12 hours to ask if there's any plans we should know about, eh?

Oh I don't know about that, maybe once per Global Crisis might be enough.

Which is about every 12 hours!

Next time there's a global crisis, then, I'll call someone on OMSK and ask for clarification, then.

[Mr Bean]

I'm wondering how you get a 14 point list since you only gave 5. I'm also wondering how exaclty you mean "all planned out" unless of course you are talking about your decision to fuck over everybody to score some points.

Ahem
Read again, the first few points require no explination, the next few however require some explaining to justify them

1. Sultan Ibrahim begins taking prisoners and his territory becomes a know Pirate Haven
2. Strike on Ibrahim to rescue prionsers
3. Ibrahim starts declaring Jihad
4. Saddamstain recieves intelligence that Ibrahim has them on his list.
5. Saddamstain reacts and begins tearing the Sultante down around Ibrahim.

By removing his fleet, bombing his stockpiles and destroying the people
s belief in his control Saddamstain has now neutralized Ibrahim's iron control over his people. Had things stopped here, the Sultante would have fallen and either someone-new would have arisen or Ramsley would have taken over the area having both the troops and support to do so.

Instead what happend
6. The Mess beings surging ships into the area and plays Johnny Big-Dick and tries to intimidate Saddamstain. Lonestar and Beowulf both order fleets into the area, The Shinra Republic surges it's ships out. Soon other Mess fleets will join them

7. Meanwhile the UKB Task force Zoro still continues to operate off Northern Libertialtopia coast in Piracy suppression role. The Saddamstain Navy and the UKB Task force share intelligence and make regular contacts. The Saddamstain Fleet is still at normal readiness rates for on-going strike operations.

8. Saddamstain, intimidates right back, beings hitting they have Chemical and Biological weapons on hand and the ability to use them, a clear effort to try to make the Mess Back down

9. The Mess sends in more ships to ensure Saddamstain gets the point, doubling what they had before and ordering a total of six carriers into the area(It's six right?)

10. The UKB withdraws it's ships because of the fact the Mess deploying fleets surrounding the Saddamstain mainland make Piracy supression pointless. They are placed in ABM shields around The Kingdom of Zor.

10A. Most FUN nations begin battery down the hatches and testing to see if they are ready for an attack.

11. Mess nations go into full ohshit mode. Leaders are in bunkers or offshore. People are ordered into shelters. The Mess nations prepare for chemical war and threaten Nuclear response.
Fun and OMSK follow suit into ohshit mode. Nuclear response is not threated. (Not that Fun can't and Sheppard has no other setting)

12. Saddamstain on threats of Nukes, responds by demonstrating his OWN nuclear weapons which in fine tradition of previous nuclear programs he has kept secret. He also begins massively decoy mining his coasts but still keeps his fleet in port(For the most part)

13. And here's the kicker, the UKB uses it's back door channels to directly speak to the Great Saddam and work out an agreement to and here's the kicker. De-escalate the situation! The single OMSK carrier in the region returns to port. Saddam respones by declaring no ill will towards OMSK and turns his attention to the Mess

14. The Mess keeps on keeping on.

So basically you are sayin that we have a sound basis for ALL of what has come since. Thank you. (emphasis mine)

I'm saying I understand that you just did not decide to step in because "you felt like it" or something similar, this had been discussed before that that.

However what had not been disscussed was the level of response, I do not recall interference with Liberaltopia internal politics was causi-beli for war. If true then then everyone who signed onto that should have declared War on Saddamstain after it executed phase I correct?

Hmm odd enough that
1) There was internaitonal outrage
2) ProTec is a COMPANY not a government
3) Pressure was being brought on Raj's government to clamp down on ProTec

So basically your whole supposition that we freely let ProTec ship arms in is bullshit of the highest order. K

Except... ProTec still operates in Liberaltopia, It's a mercenary army which is well armed enough to BE an Army and how do you know it's not arming Alexander? Because he said so?

Yup because Lonestar sank those patrol boats and flew recon sorties to prepare air strikes and announced publicly that he was placing nuke tipped cruise missiles onboard subs and sending them out to threaten everyone...yup that sure was Lonestar.

But it was Lonestar who developed a secret Nuclear weapons program. It was Lonestar who is responsible for Nuclear profilerations to a half dozen countries. It was Lonestar who was the cause of the Embassy situation and it was Lonestar who first send a fleet near Saddamstain to threaten that country.

I'd appreciate it if you'd attribute Coyote's remarks to him and not me. Not becuause I disagree but because I didn't say them.

Bad formating on my part, excuse me

[Mr Bean]

Well, it really depends on what you said-- and, yes, as well as how and to who. Rogue and I have been very open to working with OMSK and others.

You gave me no time to lay ground-work, it went from "Ok I've got one" to, "Aww fuck 2 and 3 are pissed off because I did not take care of them first"

I don't know about that-- we were working well together and we were in an internationally coordinated action. MESS, OMSK and FUN all were on the same sheet of music-- right up to the secret meeting.

You would agree however your Fireteam example IS flawed since I have no command ability over anything but my country.

I'd thought it was evident that we didn't want war, and Rogue and I both try to avoid war and aim for reconciliation. But every time something bubbles up, the headlong push to make a conflict kicks in-- it's like a reflex action or something.

In a traditional world you start things off by demanding talks, Likely in Atlantis, Talks break down military action is possible.

In our World we start things off by sending in the Navy or bombing something.

Which is about every 12 hours!

You can almost set your watch by them can't you?

[Coyote]

You would agree however your Fireteam example IS flawed since I have no command ability over anything but my country.

Okay, I can see that-- maybe a more disturbing example is Mogadishu, when the Rangers went in without any coordination whatsoever with the UN forces.... but that leads things in a bad, bad direction....

You can almost set your watch by them can't you?

I've already started counting down to the next one!

[MKSheppard]

As for powergaming like you suggest I will simply take my subs (which you probably can't stop having sold off all of yours) and take some MESS nukes and turn Shepnukistan into a fucking parking lot with the next post. Don't turn this into a pissing contest.

I'm not particularly concerned about the submarine problem.


That is a mere 10 kiloton warhead.

I plan on using multi-megaton devices to boil the ocean and destroy enemy submarines in case of war; in the constricted waters of SDN archipelago; there's really no place to hide from the underwater pressure wave from a sub-surface multi-megaton initation; and I don't need accurate targeting data; just "submarine is probably in the area".

[Mr Bean]

Settle down there President Sheppard, remember what we discussed about nuking the Ocean. There's a 58% chance that any nukes fired into the Ocean will awaken Godzilla. Or the Mega fauna equivalent.

No nuking the ocean, period, I've had enough Mega fauna attacks.

[Mr Bean]

One Last note
Bear you seriously, seriously need to retro-con that for three reasons

1. Getting to the point where you can launch anything over a 1 ton into the 1,000 km orbit requires at least 14 billion dollars in investment's to do it on your own, or 6.4 Billion(Roughly) to hire some else to build it for you, then maintain it yourself for around 200 million a launch pad plus options.

2. Atlantis exists for this very reason, AND I've got extra rockets to sell since I'm running out of things to launch with the Proton-M's but can make 69 of them a year.

3. We already have weather-sat's. Not enough, not perfect, but Vulpesia LANDSAT's contain basic systems for monitoring weather, and the second generation will be full up dual use Weather-Satellites/MK 2 Vulpsat's

*Edit and one last reason

Full low LEO(IE 100-400 km orbit) dedicated weather-sats must be launched from Atlantis or they will be shot down by either the Mess or OMSK.

It's the only place you can launch sub 1,000 km satellites without being shot down since both Mess and OMSK observers can look over your satellite to ensure it's not a nuke or a spy-sat.

[Coyote]

And again, Bear, Canissia is still trading with the BR.

[The Yosemite Bear]

upset that I've been effectively blocked from trading with one of my main trade partners. worse, I've decided to create a little "Emilia Earhart meets Jane Fonda subplot." besides aside from space craft no one's solo'ed this world yet....

[Coyote]

upset that I've been effectively blocked from trading with one of my main trade partners. worse, I've decided to create a little "Emilia Earhart meets Jane Fonda subplot." besides aside from space craft no one's solo'ed this world yet....

Dude-- Canissia is still trading with MESS, FUN, and BR.

BR-- Bear Republic. That's you, dude.

[Mr Bean]

upset that I've been effectively blocked from trading with one of my main trade partners. worse, I've decided to create a little "Emilia Earhart meets Jane Fonda subplot." besides aside from space craft no one's solo'ed this world yet....

Well there is the issue with no aircraft having a range of 22,000 miles

Seeing as it's the same as a flight around the world, except you can't refuel anywhere since there's no place to land for the aforementioned 22,000 miles

See here
Distance Records
It would have to be some sort of specially designed plane and it's going to require something like a KC-135 mid-air refueling plane to fly the first 2000 miles then double back, and a second one to meet it on the other side coming in.

@Coyote, you've stopped trading with OMSK? Trading trading or Emargo?

For example did you kick the BBC out? Or Blue Sun Satellite TV and High-Speed Internet?(Joint Venture with Shroom-Sat)

Have you stopped talking niche high tech goods from the Red Technocracy? (I smell thriving illegal important market if so)