SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK III

[K. A. Pital]

I do not recall interference with Liberaltopia internal politics was causi-beli for war

Well Rogue did say when the UOC was lobbying Ramsley's acceptance as a nation and giving him OMSK arms, that they would blockade the nation.

When an actual attack occured, we all expected them to blockade Liberia, which they did.

And Saddamistan repeatedly attacked Libertia, heavily mined the straits and declared the naval space off Libertia a war zone, which was promptly quarantined (and still is, IIRC) by the MESS.

Fine that's your right to look out for your own but don't for a second pretend you have some claim to moral high ground when you are using us as a stick in your "negotiations."

As for the MESS. It is only correct that you guys express ire at our political decisions. However I must note, that Bean did what he had to ensure our safety. Politics is a selfish and pretty damn dirty game.

So we did act not as extreme paragons of morality. But perhaps saving OMSK citizens from the threat of imminent war with Saddam was valued a greater good than the common unification against Saddamistan.

Chamberlainian? Well sue us. I don't know. The will of the Security Council was good enough reasons to remove the fleets - Saddam mined the crap out of surrounding waters and if we'd lose a ship against a mine (at least for me) that would be close to an act of war, if not actually a war case.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I'm getting really confused...

probalby shouldn't post while I've been throwing up most of the dya...

[Coyote]

@Coyote, you've stopped trading with OMSK? Trading trading or Emargo?

For example did you kick the BBC out? Or Blue Sun Satellite TV and High-Speed Internet?(Joint Venture with Shroom-Sat)

Have you stopped talking niche high tech goods from the Red Technocracy? (I smell thriving illegal important market if so)

No, I just realized that I mis-stated. I've done two things:

1: I've decided to actually enforce my airspace, whereas before I was pretty lax and unconcerned.
2: Any Saddamistan vessel that approaches Canissia uninvited will be stopped, boarded, seized and sunk.

I am still doing my trade, it was Bear mis-understanding "losing trade with Canissia" that got me to reflexively reply in the same point of view...

[Coyote]

I'm getting really confused...

probalby shouldn't post while I've been throwing up most of the dya...

Dude, if you're sick, relax. We'll still be here tomorrow.

Unless Shep declares war on oxygen...

[K. A. Pital]

as far as I understood, the FUN employed total embargo towards Saddamistan and any shipping of Saddam crossing the Central Sea and FUN-adjacent straits is to be sunk on-site.

[The Yosemite Bear]

well the point that jumped out at me, is that since my naval facilities took a major hit, I spent the 2009 year, working on building up airships and aircraft as my primary means of transport.

note one of the stranger ideas, I came up with was a sea plane with solar cells on the top of the fuselodge, in order to convert sea water into fuel for the next leg of the journey.....

how feasable is that?

Technically that was the method I was going to try for the Earhart sub plot...

[MKSheppard]

Unless Shep declares war on oxygen...

Declares war on Oxygen

[The Yosemite Bear]

damn, I may actually be able to sell the tunnelers after all Shep.

[RogueIce]

I do not recall interference with Liberaltopia internal politics was causi-beli for war

Well Rogue did say when the UOC was lobbying Ramsley's acceptance as a nation and giving him OMSK arms, that they would blockade the nation.

When an actual attack occured, we all expected them to blockade Liberia, which they did.

And Saddamistan repeatedly attacked Libertia, heavily mined the straits and declared the naval space off Libertia a war zone, which was promptly quarantined (and still is, IIRC) by the MESS.

Yes, we are. And thank you for your words. It's nice to know somebody understands what we're doing.

Fine that's your right to look out for your own but don't for a second pretend you have some claim to moral high ground when you are using us as a stick in your "negotiations."

As for the MESS. It is only correct that you guys express ire at our political decisions. However I must note, that Bean did what he had to ensure our safety. Politics is a selfish and pretty damn dirty game.

So we did act not as extreme paragons of morality. But perhaps saving OMSK citizens from the threat of imminent war with Saddam was valued a greater good than the common unification against Saddamistan.

Chamberlainian? Well sue us. I don't know. The will of the Security Council was good enough reasons to remove the fleets - Saddam mined the crap out of surrounding waters and if we'd lose a ship against a mine (at least for me) that would be close to an act of war, if not actually a war case.

You know what the major problem with his plan was? It was his decision to go OMSK, then FUN, then MESS. By doing it one at a time, he effectively created a situation where the FUN and the MESS were left out in the breeze wondering why the fuck the OMSK seems to not only giving in to Saddamistan demands (and that's all he's ever done out there) but now for whatever reason is apparently getting all buddy buddy with him.

This is, obviously, a problem. What, he goes and makes his diplomatic wranglings while the MESS and FUN continue to risk our sailors and countries in the face of Saddamistan, who nobody knows what his plans are? Fuck you too, Bean.

What you could have done instead of leaving the MESS and FUN out to dry is to have brought all of us in on it. What, in those flurry of PMs you couldn't drop one to me or Coyote and PeZook and Shroom Man? Then we all would have been on the same page and we wouldn't be having this problem. As it is, you still haven't seen fit to let us in on the Big Secret in-universe.

As I said in the last OOC thread, you could have let us know and avoided a lot of grief. We didn't have to broadcast that you had secret negotiations going on. We could have said that the OMSK is redeploying to better protect their waters (especially in light of Skimmer's nuclear sub threats) and that they are continuing to work with us to resolve this situation peacefully.

There, that wasn't so hard, was it? But no, you had to play your little games and then you're shocked to find out the rest of the world doesn't like being left out to flutter in the breeze.

And it doesn't help that Shep is here playing the warmonger MESS card yet again. Skimmer we expect that from. But getting this shit from OMSK members (again!) isn't going to help things any.

As to the larger issues, here's a news flash: you may have no problem with wiping out the Sultan. Not everybody else agrees with you. So as Stas said, we had a reason to go in and put ourselves between them. Since Saddamistan has never seen fit to tell us jack beyond what he wants us to hear and then make threats if we don't fall into line, how the hell should we know he's not invading? And even if it was just airstrikes it didn't matter. We'd made it clear that we didn't believe the problems of Terra Libertia should be resolved through force of arms. So when Skimmer goes and blows shit up, what did you expect us to do? Say oh well, such is life, our word doesn't mean shit so long as someone big and scary enough challenges us on it?

As for ProTec, we recognized they had a loophole of sorts, being a private company. But we made it clear that Indohpal had better keep a tight leash on them, as their PMC status wouldn't be a shield they could hide behind forever. Unless you wants us to attack nations for what private ventures and individuals do, in which case maybe we should've bombed the Red Technocracy for those pilgrims. But we didn't, because we recognize those were private citizens, not the government. Just like ProTec is a private corporation, not the government.

And for the record, from the very start, before we even really put in the naval buildup, we asked Sea Skimmer to provide evidence to the world community of that attack on his patrol boats and the "invasion armada" he claimed to be there. You know what his response was? "Stay away, we've declared it a warzone." End message. So you'll just have to pardon us for not being mind readers and reacting badly when someone launches an unprovoked attack on their neighbors.

[K. A. Pital]

And it doesn't help that Shep is here playing the warmonger MESS

He doesn't IIRC. You're the victim party in the mining accident.

And even if it was just airstrikes it didn't matter.

It wasn't. He actually landed in Libertia with a recon party, he declared the Straits a war zone and closed to naval traffic, he geared up his army and weapon depots were opened.

This looked like a very clear preparation to an invasion, and it was very fucking clear to everyone.

[RogueIce]

It wasn't. He actually landed in Libertia with a recon party, he declared the Straits a war zone and closed to naval traffic, he geared up his army and weapon depots were opened.

This looked like a very clear preparation to an invasion, and it was very fucking clear to everyone.

Except to Bean the mind reader apparently.

[K. A. Pital]

What, in those flurry of PMs you couldn't drop one to me or Coyote and PeZook and Shroom Man?

There was no PM flurry. In reality, just as Bean said, OMSK SC did not want to risk war with Saddam.

[PeZook]

Note: Saddamistani shipping is not going to be sunk. Current orders are to inspect and turn them around, unless they want to do something stupid like run the blockade.

[K. A. Pital]

Ah, sure. Overreacted. Saddamistan is irritating.

[Shroom Man 777]

You know, it's funneh to see Bean backroom-dealing with the Super Saddam Special while Stas was, like "we cannot abide a nation that harbors biological weaponry" and such.

Either way, Shroomania and the FUN is perfectly willing to do whatever it takes in this situation to ensure prosperity and the benefit of all its members, friends and allies.

Buy anti-rad pills!

[K. A. Pital]

Well, so far Saddam did not use them and the world is unaware of the weapons existing.

However, I am gearing up the GRU for running an extensive operation in Saddamistan to expose those weapons.

And please, no fucking "oh noes Stas is putting us on the brink of war" - the opening of depots and the mass movement are reasons good enough for surveillance, and if we find bioweapons, well, so be it.

We'll see how we'll deal with that.

EDIT: wait, didn't he claim that he has bioweapons in the main thread? I Hope not, because this means we're up for another ultimatum to Saddam.

[Shroom Man 777]

Send the GRU just to be sure. With that madman nation, we can't be sure what's what. I just hope your GRU operatives don't end up committing suicide by the thousands outside the gates of Baghdad, by Allah's grace!

Mang, even the alliances aren't that cohesive. You want to send GRU operatives into the Super Saddam Special, Bean wants to play patty-cakes with the Super Saddam Special, Shinra wants to cut a deal with the Goddamn Libertopians, and Coyote doesn't want ANYTHING to do with the Goddamn Libertopians.

Damn!

I hope the FUN stays more cohesive than that

BUY ANTI-RAD!

[PeZook]

You know, it's funneh to see Bean backroom-dealing with the Super Saddam Special while Stas was, like "we cannot abide a nation that harbors biological weaponry" and such.

Either way, Shroomania and the FUN is perfectly willing to do whatever it takes in this situation to ensure prosperity and the benefit of all its members, friends and allies.

Buy anti-rad pills!

I think it's high time we actually agreed on something concerning those goddamned libertopians.

There was a proposal for an economic solution thrown out lately, but we need to establish a unified front - some countries don't like the Sultna, for example, and have a bone to pick with him.

Either we agree on something, or Libertopia will continue to be a proxy war waiting to happen.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Sovereignty of Shroomania will not make embassies in Goddamn Libertopia, but we're willing to make these HUEG humanitarian giant FUN-owned humanitarian facilities and hospitals and centers that will can also house representatives and diplomats. Basically, an embassy that isn't an embassy because instead of "engaging in diplomacy", it is erected for the purposes of "being useful" instead

Does that sound like a good idea?

[PeZook]

The Sovereignty of Shroomania will not make embassies in Goddamn Libertopia, but we're willing to make these HUEG humanitarian giant FUN-owned humanitarian facilities and hospitals and centers that will can also house representatives and diplomats. Basically, an embassy that isn't an embassy because instead of "engaging in diplomacy", it is erected for the purposes of "being useful" instead

Does that sound like a good idea?

Personally, I think embassies or ambassadors of some sort are an absolute necessity.

I mean, look at the current crisis. Careful analysis reveals it is nothing more than a breakdown in communication. Let's go over it step by step:

Pre-crisis:

- Lonestar performs a rescue operation in Libertopia, blowing up civilians
- Sultan declares Jihad in response
- Meanwhile, the MESS and FUN agree that no armed interference in Libertia will be tolerated ; OMSK does not express outright support to this idea, but doesn't want to interfere, either.
- MESS declares they will blockade libertopia if anybody intervenes
- Shep takes the Jihad personally (because he hates Jihadis) and decides he will kill the Sultan, but do nothing more

Crisis:

- Saddamistan bombs the Sultan
- MESS delivers on the threat and deploys ships to blockade Libertopia
- The world gets scared: everybody thinks war is imminent
- OMSK deploys forces to defend allies and themselves
- Saddamistan issues threats, including hints of bio-weapons
- Stas says the OMSK will destroy Saddamistan if they have bioweapons
- Sultan Ibrahim withdraws the Jihad when asked nicely.

The statement by Stas above is taken by the MESS as support for their operation, but it wasn't. The OMSK never deployed forces to blockade Libertopia! They deployed a carrier in the Central Sea to act as an ABM shield for countries there, Bean deployed TS Zoro to observe and protect Zoria, and shep deployed the SAC to retaliate in the worst-case scenario.

- OMSK withdraws, pulls out the Central Sea ships, Shep cancels SAC patrols, Bean moves Zoro out of the area. Hints of a back-room deal with Saddam are given.

Post-crisis:

- MESS is pissed, because they thought they were backed up by OMSK
- Stas states again that Saddamistan will be made an example of if they have bioweapons.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

See? The OMSK and MESS had different objectives from the start. The MESS is not an agressive warmonger - they just delivered on their threat.

The OMSK did not state clearly what their intentions were, so the MESS thought they were there for the same reason. They were not.

The MESS didn't ask for clarification, because from their perspective, none was needed. However, when OMSK withdrew, this was considered folding to Saddamistan's threats - but they never wanted to protect Libertia from Saddamistan in the first place!

Back then I was shocked, too. But right now, it's clear that neither side completely understood each other, and laying blame isn't going to help the situation. Looks like we're not such good diplomats after all

What we need to do is meet and agree on who wants to do what. There were assumptions made before this crisis which ended up confusing the situation, and these must be cleared.

[The Yosemite Bear]

mind you I lost a cargo blimp and a merchant trade group during the crisis. Damn Cell phones.

[General Deathdealer]

Stas,
In the name of bettering relations between the MESS and OMSK, I would have no problem with you basing your GRU guys in Baal if you decide to go into Saddamistan to look for WMDs. I am only about 60 miles North of Saddamistan, so your guys would not have very far to go. They can base out of the military side of the Dante Airport in Southern Baal.

[K. A. Pital]

We never fully vowed to participate in a naval lockdown of Libertia, it remained a point of divergence between the nations - and most of our operations and actions concerned protecting our allies and various small nations in the Central Sea, not making the lockdown.

When I decided to put my CNGs with Byzantium to Libertia, it was a time when the nations were being officially recognized and I thought I have a right to now move my naval assets to it's territorial waters.

I want to re-iterate for those who didn't clearly read what Skimmer said:

Saddamistan has every type and variant of chemical and bio weapon delivery system you can think of

Allright? Next step: officially we don't know it - only suspicions and rumors, but the current crisis provides a good opportunity to investigate.

[PeZook]

We never fully vowed to participate in a naval lockdown of Libertia, it remained a point of divergence between the nations - and most of our operations and actions concerned protecting our allies and various small nations in the Central Sea, not making the lockdown.

When I decided to put my CNGs with Byzantium to Libertia, it was a time when the nations were being officially recognized and I thought I have a right to now move my naval assets to it's territorial waters.

Yeah, well - that's what I was getting at. The MESS simply misinterpreted the OMSK actions as participation in the blockade, and the OMSK didn't quite make it clear. I suppose one can't blame either side here, it was a failure of communication.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shroomania still doesn't want to recognize the warlords, so if embassies must be established, PeZookia will have to represent the FUN (and Shroomania) with its embassies

Shroomania will, however, be willing to give humanitarian aid to the three... factions, nations, whatever.

If the warlords do end up getting their shit together, then Shroomania will put embassies. So far, Ramsley and Alexander are pretty alright... the Sultan, I don't think he'll be forging a nation out of the ashes of civil war anytime soon