A quick rundown (very very minor Invincible spoilers)

[Swindle1984]

Shouldn't Daala's bodycount be much higher? I thought that Cronus's rampages were far more bloody (and he did do them on her direct orders)

And you forgot Kyp Durron and Carida. (Alderaan had some military utility, since it was funding the Rebellion. And we wouldn't consider it odd if say Bush blew up the Taliban's Treasury for carrying Al Qaeda's money.

The planet Khomm was bombarded; that definitely was not a legitimate military target by any stretch. From what I remember of Darksaber, the attack crippled the planetary infrastructure, even if no hard casualty estimates were given.

I don't know what the casualty estimates were, but she did destroy their clone facility, effectively dooming the species to a slow extinction because they couldn't produce any more clones.

Of course, they could just BUY another clone facility or build a new one, but that would mean the book would have to be a little less shitty.

But since most of the attack was made by TIE fighters and bombers, the damage to the planet as a whole couldn't have been all that massive, any more than the fire-bombing of London destroyed England.

But yes, having an incompetent military commander who failed time and time again, murdered her competitors instead of negotiating with them, and committed repeated acts of genocide and attempted acts of genocide become the fricking Chief of State of the galaxy, including what used to be the New Republic, is one of the most retarded things imaginable.

I'm just waiting for Travesty to have Daala marry a clone of Jango Fett and become a M'an'do'l'or'ia'n super commando.

[NecronLord]

What is the source for this? Labyrinth of Evil shows his decision of "die from your wounds or work for us" to be of his own free will, rather then him having a death wish that they thwarted.

The book Visionaries depicts San Hill effectively coercing Grievous into becoming the head strongman for the Banking Clan by threatening to withhold desperately needed aid from the Kaleesh. He initially agreed to undergo the cyborg process to save his world, after which they removed chunks of his brain and added assorted mind-controlling and aggression-enhancing components (per the ROTS Visual Dictionary).

If you've read Visionaries, you will note San Hill pressing buttons on his bacta tank, and Grievous screaming in agony, to get him to agree, too.

The book Visionaries depicts San Hill effectively coercing Grievous into becoming the head strongman for the Banking Clan by threatening to withhold desperately needed aid from the Kaleesh. He initially agreed to undergo the cyborg process to save his world, after which they removed chunks of his brain and added assorted mind-controlling and aggression-enhancing components (per the ROTS Visual Dictionary).

I doubt that Visionaries trumps LoE in the Canon. After all this is the same book where Darth Maul survived and actually travelled across the galaxy (including Geonosis and Mustafar in the midst of those conflicts) and then dueled Obi Wan on the Lars homestead.

EDIT:

I cannot find anything detailing which stories in Visionaries are and are not canon, but I would side with the LoE version either way unless it's stated somewhere else.

As far as I recall, LoE is very vague, rather than a direct depiction of events. Never mind that Grievous entered the service of the IGBC on two occasions, the first as an organic general, the second as a mangled piece of flesh hauled from a shuttle crash (caused by Dooku).

[NecronLord]

For more details regarding canonicity, I point you to Abel G. Peña's blog, with endnotes for 'General Grievous, Lord of War' (Link)which seems to detail the current reconciliation of LoE with Visionaries' Eyes of the Revolution, which definately seems to be canon:

The InterGalactic Banking Clan's recruitment of Grievous was a bit muddled prior to its explanation here. While the novel Labyrinth of Evil (2005, Del Rey) tells that Grievous cut a deal with the Banking Clan's chairman San Hill ("The Banking Clan will sign your treaty...") to help Kalee out of its destitute state before the accident that results in the warlord's borgification, "Eyes of Revolution" in Visionaries (2005, Dark Horse Comics) suggests that the Huk War continues unabated just prior to the catastrophe- in the story, Grievous is literally on his way to fight the enemy when the crash occurs. The discrepancy is reconciled in "Unknown Soldier" by simply providing Grievous with a post-war motivation for taking this aggressive action.

Phlut Design Systems is first mentioned in the IG Lancer droid entry in the official Star Wars website Databank (2004, StarWars.com), though the company name was interpolated from reference to the assassin droid IG-88 as a product of "Project Phlutdroid" in Galaxy Guide 3: The Empire Strikes Back (1989, West End Games). Grievous' seizure of the company for the Banking Clan is new, and provides a touch of dramatic irony when his newly requisitioned IG-100 MagnaGuards drag his mangled body from the ship wreckage that will turn him into a cyborg monster.

Underline mine.

As far as I recall, the LoE segment seems to reffer to his pre-accident agreement to work for the Banking Clan, with Visionaries, his desire to have nothing further to do with them, and torture and brain surgery, being canon, and taking place later, after his accid - err, sith-maiming. I don't have access to either bok at the minute (and indeed, no idea where the hell my copy of LoE has gone off to, it's probably behind a bookcase somewhere) but given that both appear to be canon, at the worst, would not be the LoE example be how the (mindhacked) general remembers events and Visionaries what actually happened?

I don't think Grievous, after mind-hacking, was really much more culpable for his actions than say, the Shadow Hand computer. Both were doing what Sidious programmed them to do.

And even ignoring quite what he agreed to, the VD seems to strongly suspect that at the least he'd be insane. I'm not sure he'd be responsible for his actions past that point.

At the very least, Palpatine ordered the assault on Coruscant too, as a military strike. This is seen in the Clone Wars cartoons. I would be surprised if the general nature of Grievous' campaigns (terror attacks into the inner worlds) was not also decided by the Sith Lords.

EDIT: This is of course, not to say he was cute or cuddly - he'd probably still be worse than Daala, but rather, that I don't think Palpatine is nearly high enough when we consider his direct leadership role in the war, as well as his making sure of placing the most psychotic and muderous tools in positions of power in the Confederacy.

[Ender]

Visionaries, in addition to storylines where Maul survived and peacefully crashing ISDs, has Grevious receiving a blood transfusion from a human Jedi. Clearly the story is about as serious as our claims of alligators in the sewers. If any of visionaries is regarded as canon, then QA has gone out the window at LFL. It was first conceived of as a "What If.... Why Not...?" SW version, the push to have things counted afterwards is a result of the hyperinclusionist fanatics who think every instance of Darth Vader taking a shit needs to be included and referenced again and again.

IIRC the ROTSVD just says that the chip makes him more aggressive. That is a far cry from brainwashing.

[NecronLord]

Visionaries, in addition to storylines where Maul survived and peacefully crashing ISDs, has Grevious receiving a blood transfusion from a human Jedi. Clearly the story is about as serious as our claims of alligators in the sewers. If any of visionaries is regarded as canon, then QA has gone out the window at LFL.

Ahem. Traviss?

At least Visionaries has some stuff with an epic sense of space operatic scale to it (Excecutor Excecutes, using an unused Ep3 ringworld concept).

It was first conceived of as a "What If.... Why Not...?" SW version, the push to have things counted afterwards is a result of the hyperinclusionist fanatics who think every instance of Darth Vader taking a shit needs to be included and referenced again and again.

Yup. Of course, as it has supposedly been referenced elsewhere, I'd say it's canon. Regardless of how good or not it is (and to be honest, I like it. The robot general being hideously betrayed and manipulated seems to nicely foreshadow the way Vader is manipulated - far more compelling than Mando shit, or Daala becoming the leader of the free galaxy, or any of that crap)...

IIRC the ROTSVD just says that the chip makes him more aggressive. That is a far cry from brainwashing.

Really? I think if you inject someone with hormones to make them hyper-agressive to get them to do what you want, it would most certainly count as such.

[VT-16]

The transfusion is considered a failure, since the goal was to make him Force-sensitive. It's a canon story. Everything in Visionaries is, except the "Maul lives" one.

[NecronLord]

The transfusion is considered a failure, since the goal was to make him Force-sensitive. It's a canon story. Everything in Visionaries is, except the "Maul lives" one.

Oh, I don't know. I think the Imperial Military's posters might be more subtle than the Feng Zhou ones. Did 'Next Planet!' make it into the book by the way? I forget.

And yes, I rather like the force transfucion idea, because it failed. It's neat to hear of some crazy ass sith magic not working for once.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The transfusion is considered a failure, since the goal was to make him Force-sensitive. It's a canon story. Everything in Visionaries is, except the "Maul lives" one.

Oh, I don't know. I think the Imperial Military's posters might be more subtle than the Feng Zhou ones. Did 'Next Planet!' make it into the book by the way? I forget.

And yes, I rather like the force transfucion idea, because it failed. It's neat to hear of some crazy ass sith magic not working for once.

It's also useful for hitting the "Midichlorians are everywhere now and suck! Palpatine should get fat" proponents over the head with .


Sidenote: Where the hell are people getting the "everything in visionaries apart from Maul is canon" from? Last I heard it was completely non canon, or quasi-canon at best
.

[VT-16]

Leland Chee.

[Darth Hoth]

Oh, I don't know. I think the Imperial Military's posters might be more subtle than the Feng Zhou ones. Did 'Next Planet!' make it into the book by the way? I forget.

It warms my heart to be able to announce that did not. The rest of that sillyness is bad enough, of course (although some of "Sithisis" was vaguely artistically interesting)...

[Darth Fanboy]

As far as I recall, LoE is very vague, rather than a direct depiction of events. Never mind that Grievous entered the service of the IGBC on two occasions, the first as an organic general, the second as a mangled piece of flesh hauled from a shuttle crash (caused by Dooku).

The first part of LoE depicting Greivous' transformation is Chapter 18, which is from the General's point of view. Greivous is recolleting the events which turned him into the CIS' top general and I would say it is far from a vague account, i'll attempt to summarize.

-Grievous is recruited by the Banking Clan to serve as an enforcer and lead their droid forces in exchange for financial support for Kalee. Greivous is not exactly thrilled by the work, but is satisfied with the profits being made for Kalee.

-The shuttle crash. He remembers telling the healers to pull him from the bacta tank so that he could die elsewhere. He felt that dying from a shuttle crash was an indignity and also remembers preferring death in space or in atmosphere greatly over dying in liquid.

-As Greivous' funeral pyre is being prepared, San hill comes to him again. Grievous remembers this conversation in great detail, and it takes place over the course of the entire page (112). Greivous was content to die until San Hill told him that he would be given a new body, and that he would be given the chance to lead an army.

-Grievous decides to accept Hill's offer and is given his droid body by the Geonosians, and Greivous remembers that there was some getting used to his new form before he was introduced to Dooku.


Then, in Chapter 22, we get Count Dooku's perspective. Dooku remembers that it was Sidious who first became interested in Dooku, who then passed on that interest to San Hill. the book does not specifically mention if this was before or after Dooku was already in the employ of the IBC as their enforcer, but it does note that the plan to cripple the General with a shuttle crash was San Hill's idea.

Dooku also notes that more injuries had to be inflicted upon him after the crash, because Grievous had not been hurt enough by the crash to suit their purposes. Dooku also notes that Grievous agreed to be rebuilt, but wanted to ensure that there were no mental modifications made to his mind. Here's the quote though that you might find interesting.

But the Geonosians had ways of modifying the mind without a patient ever being aware that he had been tampered with. Grievous certainly believed that he had always been the cold-blooded conqueror he was now, when in truth his cruelty and prowess owed much to his rebuilding.

I guess i'm just trying to say that LoE is far from a vague description of events. While Grievous might remember a few details differently because of his altered state, there is no denying Dooku's own recollection.

[NecronLord]

Humm. I'd say Eyes of the Revolution follows that quite closely, really, but with extra torture and less San Hill being persuasive...

[Darth Fanboy]

Humm. I'd say Eyes of the Revolution follows that quite closely, really, but with extra torture and less San Hill being persuasive...

Yes, I do have it after all . But my only point to that post was to prove that LoE was not a "vague description" and I have issues with the canon value of the Syfo Dyas Blood Transfusion. Because in either the RoTS Novelization or LoE (of which I cannot remember right now) Dooku recalls killing Syfo Dyas just after Dyas puts in the order for the Clone Army, which must take place some time before Greivous is activated (he was put together on Geonosis and his first combat was there in that first battle of the war).

I find it hard to believe that Dooku carried around the corpse just so that he could use the blood in a futile effort to make Greivous Force Sensitive later, and that is assuming he somehow managed to keep the blood inside the corpse viable before the "transfusion" mentioned in Visionaries.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Visionaries, in addition to storylines where Maul survived and peacefully crashing ISDs, has Grevious receiving a blood transfusion from a human Jedi. Clearly the story is about as serious as our claims of alligators in the sewers. If any of visionaries is regarded as canon, then QA has gone out the window at LFL. It was first conceived of as a "What If.... Why Not...?" SW version, the push to have things counted afterwards is a result of the hyperinclusionist fanatics who think every instance of Darth Vader taking a shit needs to be included and referenced again and again.

IIRC the ROTSVD just says that the chip makes him more aggressive. That is a far cry from brainwashing.

Heh. That weathered ISD hulk must really have bothered the shit out of you.

[Ender]

Heh. That weathered ISD hulk must really have bothered the shit out of you.

It is just sitting there in a forest, peaceful as can be. Have these fuckers never dropped anything in the dirt? Have they never heard of the word "crater"? What about "dinosaurs" are they familiar with those? This isn't even like it would interfere with the good story or anything, it was a single painting in a book full of god-awful retarded stories. Jesus christ FUCK!


The blood transfusion bit is enough to make me push Visionaries in the same category as Odds and the Mando'wank. It is canon in the sense that someone somewhere in the Star Wars universe thinks it is true. Probably the same guy who believes the story in Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina about time travel. But it is so skull-fuckingly stupid I refuse to treat it as such.

Do I even want to know what "Next Planet" was going to be?

[Illuminatus Primus]

What is Next Planet?

Anyway, perhaps the ISD's hull is so robust the ISD "mountain" - at the time of the depiction of the drawing - is actually tens or hundreds of thousands of years old and the crater has subsided beneath vegetation and sediment while the extremely robust hull remains more or less intact. But I agree, its dumb.

[NecronLord]

Heh. That weathered ISD hulk must really have bothered the shit out of you.

It is just sitting there in a forest, peaceful as can be. Have these fuckers never dropped anything in the dirt? Have they never heard of the word "crater"? What about "dinosaurs" are they familiar with those? This isn't even like it would interfere with the good story or anything, it was a single painting in a book full of god-awful retarded stories. Jesus christ FUCK!

Eh. Anakin emergency landed a destroyer in RotS without making a huge crater (lots of damage, mind, but not a big yucatan crater) - I assume something similar (if less difficult) happened there and it was grown over. Mind, I've not seen all of Visionaries. I just read Eyes and Entrenched, flicked through and then put it back on the shelf. Only things I buy these days are the more reputable novels.

The blood transfusion bit is enough to make me push Visionaries in the same category as Odds and the Mando'wank. It is canon in the sense that someone somewhere in the Star Wars universe thinks it is true.

I don't have a problem with it. Compared to some of the more outrageously silly stuff the Sith have been depicted as doing, animated statues, undead corpses that fire sith lightning, magic crystals of doom, making freaky deaky mutants, ressurecting Palpatine, and so forth, it's weaksauce. And for once, it's a bit of Sith voodoo that fails, which endears me to it.

Do I even want to know what "Next Planet" was going to be?

Ta da.

The artist was commissioned to do a set of Imperial pinup-recruitment posters, and decided to take the piss out of it by doing a Death Star one. Some of the ones from this series (though not this one!) are in Visionaries.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I abhor most Sith bullshit from the TOTJ and Great Hyperspace War series; existing bullshit does not defend future bullshit.

[NecronLord]

I abhor most Sith bullshit from the TOTJ and Great Hyperspace War series; existing bullshit does not defend future bullshit.

I don't really see it as bullshit though (at least, no more than the idea of medis) it's just some crazy idea a lunatic Sith Lord thought might be worth trying for kicks. It didn't actually accomplish anything - to my mind, it'd be bullshit if it worked. Otherwise, it's nice to see the Sith idiotic mystic science being a bit more hit and miss.

[Darth Hoth]

I abhor most Sith bullshit from the TOTJ and Great Hyperspace War series; existing bullshit does not defend future bullshit.

Your pardon? The Sith bullshit from TotJ is KEWL!

[Ender]

Eh. Anakin emergency landed a destroyer in RotS without making a huge crater (lots of damage, mind, but not a big yucatan crater) - I assume something similar (if less difficult) happened there and it was grown over. Mind, I've not seen all of Visionaries. I just read Eyes and Entrenched, flicked through and then put it back on the shelf. Only things I buy these days are the more reputable novels.

That the star destroyer didn't leave a huge crater when either of the Skywalkers landed it is explicitly due to their force sensitivity and incredible skill as a pilot. Additionally, they did it tearing up the landscape as they skidded to a halt. Were never sitting there like some kid setdown their toy and forgot to come back and get it.

I don't have a problem with it. Compared to some of the more outrageously silly stuff the Sith have been depicted as doing, animated statues, undead corpses that fire sith lightning, magic crystals of doom, making freaky deaky mutants, ressurecting Palpatine, and so forth, it's weaksauce. And for once, it's a bit of Sith voodoo that fails, which endears me to it.

I find the idea of "the evil sith wizard" utterly repulsive and stupid. Since the original trilogy it has been clear that Jedi = natural abilities and rejection of technology, Sith = use of technology every chance they get. ANH had Luke turning off his targeting computer, while the ROTJ novel describes the Death Star as a monument to the Dark Side. The new trilogy made that even clearer with the Sith using droids and cloning to achieve their goal, and provided a good reason for it - with only 2 of them they needed the tech to make up the difference in numbers.

Because of that I look to find some kind of technical explanation for every instance I can. Most of them have them - reanimated statures are disguised droids, mutants the result of advanced bio, nano, and cybernetic technology, etc. Most of the ones that do not can be explained by the Force and observed abilities in the movies - e.g. Ghosts using TK to move corpses and fire lightening from them.

THe blood transfusion is not only stupid itself, it directly contradicts known science and has no support in the canon. I reject it.

[ExarKun]

I just looked at the $27 Hardcover at the bookstore. Went straight to the last page, and yes, to my great disappointment, all the spoilers seem to be true. I feel violated and want the $50 I invested in the series so far back