Doctor who question

[dragon]

I finally seen the first few episodes of the series and was wondering since the Doctor is always mucking about history why doesn't he go back in time and save some of his fellow time lords?

[Crazedwraith]

I finally seen the first few episodes of the series and was wondering since the Doctor is always mucking about history why doesn't he go back in time and save some of his fellow time lords?

1) As of "Father's Day," He can't 'cross his one timeline' which means he can't change time from his own perpective as it causes paradoxes that the Time Lords who aren't there can't fix anymore. Hence the universe clenses itself with evil Reaper creatures.

2) In the latest episode, "The Fires of Pompeii" its stated the Time Lords such as The Doctor see, things in terms of Time, some things are in flux (such as people) and some things are set in time and cannot be changed. (Such as the eruption of Vesuvius; partly because the Doctor caused it himself to stop an alien invasion destroying the world, as well as presumbly the destruction of Galiefrey [which the doctor also reputaly caused])

[Zixinus]

2) In the latest episode, "The Fires of Pompeii" its stated the Time Lords such as The Doctor see, things in terms of Time, some things are in flux (such as people) and some things are set in time and cannot be changed. (Such as the eruption of Vesuvius; partly because the Doctor caused it himself to stop an alien invasion destroying the world, as well as presumbly the destruction of Galiefrey [which the doctor also reputaly caused])

Which suggests some pretty fucked up possibilities.

[The Grim Squeaker]

2) In the latest episode, "The Fires of Pompeii" its stated the Time Lords such as The Doctor see, things in terms of Time, some things are in flux (such as people) and some things are set in time and cannot be changed. (Such as the eruption of Vesuvius; partly because the Doctor caused it himself to stop an alien invasion destroying the world, as well as presumbly the destruction of Galiefrey [which the doctor also reputaly caused])

Which suggests some pretty fucked up possibilities.

Well, from what's been hinted, he probably pulled the same stunt Rose did in the S1 finale, opening the Heart of the TARDIS, and becoming "A Vengeful God". (What's really scary is him saying that a Timelord doing that would be far more powerful than a human doing that stunt. The Master was all but orgasmic at the idea "How did it Feel like").

What's really fucked up, is that he still couldn't do anything but a MAD, perhaps he used the Eye of Eternity on Gallifrey and it fucked up the planet? Either way, the Daleks must have had some wanktastic defenses. (Which continues my theory that "The Cruciform" that the Dalek Empire "Entered" was some sort of TL super-weapon that got subverted and fucked up the old duffers).
Christ, I sound like BOrange .

[Stark]

How has this been hinted? What is the Eye of Eternity? The Daleks schooled some Warmasters of Lameo, so they got a pretty hefty tech boost.

[Patrick Degan]

I finally seen the first few episodes of the series and was wondering since the Doctor is always mucking about history why doesn't he go back in time and save some of his fellow time lords?

It is potentially disastrous to attempt to undo events that have become solidly established in the past. Attempting to rescue some of his people would distort the pattern of the past and is very likely impossible. Even the Time Lords had limits to their power and ability to intervene in time.

When Eldrad demanded the Doctor take her back to Kastria, he stated it was flatly impossible for him to undo Kastria's destruction from 150 million years in the past. Likewise, Scaroth was unable to undo the event which eliminated the last of the Jaggaroth and splintered himself in time. It has happened, it will happen.

It has been long established in Doctor Who that certain things were impossible even for the Time Lords or any timefaring race. Changing history is one of them. It takes an event like the Time War to make it possible at all and even with that the shape of the Universe ended up more or less the same as it was before Gallifrey was destroyed and the Daleks along with it.

[Stark]

The Doctor is also full of shit. The Time Lords can control the consequences of crossing the Doctor's timeline on a massively paradoxical scale. Aside from unreliable dialogue, I don't see any real evidence for being unable to change historical events except 'will cause paradox = bad'. That's apparently mitigatable with the right technology, although doubtless such things have serious limits.

Saying time travel can't change the past isn't really clear: it's just that time travel is a part of that history already, so whatever you're going to do to change it already happened in that history. Of course, such statements don't change the fact that it's important to stop people changing history, since you were always there to stop it etc. Even if you were to believe the Doctor's statement (which includes flexible history), it's likely the 'unchangeable' events are just stronger paradoxes personally: after all, the two events the new series mentions directly involve the Doctor himself, so it's unsurprising these events seem set in stone to him - he made them. Having two versions of yourself somewhere = bad, after all.

[The Yosemite Bear]

after all one of his companions killed the dinosaurs, another companion is partially responsible for the big bang....

[mr friendly guy]

1) some events are harder to change than others "the Fires of Pompeii". Which of these events are isn't clear, so that gives writers the excuse when fans wonder why the Doctor doesn't simply change history.

2) We see that even difficult events like "crossing ones time line" is possible. The Time Lords did it themselves in desperation in "The three doctors" (classic series). This theme has been mentioned as well in the novels. It seems this is tricky and not without consequence, so even the Time Lords do it reluctantly.

So if even the Time Lords with all their resources find it difficult to do, it will be damn difficult even for the Doctor to do it

[Stark]

1) some events are harder to change than others "the Fires of Pompeii". Which of these events are isn't clear, so that gives writers the excuse when fans wonder why the Doctor doesn't simply change history.

Yeah, it's pretty obviously a sap to the fan-debate on this topic, which just says 'you can't change history unless you can' and is thus meaningless.

[Darth Onasi]

The problem with the paradox thing is that if the Time Lords fix paradoxes, then wouldn't bringing them back allow them to fix it? Or can't they fix it if they *are* the paradox?

[Stark]

The problem with the paradox thing is that if the Time Lords fix paradoxes, then wouldn't bringing them back allow them to fix it? Or can't they fix it if they *are* the paradox?

The Time Lords created a pretty special situation for themselves with regards causality: it's the basis and necessary for most of their temporal technology. In the Three Doctors, they even directly spoke of the power usage of suppressing the paradox of having three Doctors who never met meet in their own pasts with themselves from the future and then not remember.

[Glimmervoid]

Also the time war was this huge universe spanning war which only the higher races remember, I sort of assumed that the Time Lords and the Daleks not only killed each other, but retroactively killed each other wiping them both from time so there is to past for the Doctor to travel back to. If this was no the case should not ever race in the galexey remember the time war and not just the higher ones.

[Darth Onasi]

Hmm.. well, perhaps they're gone in such a way that it's impossible to bring them back without also bringing back all of the Daleks and what they were about to do.
And whatever it was that they were going to do scared the shit out of the Master, so it can't be good.,

[Minischoles]

It's like the Doctor said in the Fires of Pompeii episode. Some points in time are fixed, and i'm presuming they're fixed because the Doctor or another Timelord had some direct influence on the events.

So Pompeii exploded because he caused it, making it a fixed point in time. Same for Gallifrey getting destroyed, he was responsible for it, so his taking direct action makes the point fixed instead of in flux like most events are.

[Xon]

The Doctor Who:EU explains in more detail that since the Time Lords created the Web of Time, when they observe something it gets woven deeply into the web of time, basicly making it 'real'(sure you can change it, but it takes a hell of a lot of effort).

It is used to explain the Time Lord's extreme isolation. They are quite literially the universal privileged observers of thier universe. That is an awesome amount of power.

[NecronLord]

It's worth noting that this conflicts with a number of statements about history being re-written. If it's a magic fixed point in time, then surely, no adventures that might change those events can happen.

[Xon]

I wouldn't call it magically fixed in time, just there is a 'small' window on posible variations which can conform with observed events. As Father's Day shows, it would be quite easy for races just starting to use time travel to annihilate themselves simply by verifying that time travel is posible.

[Stark]

It's worth noting that this conflicts with a number of statements about history being re-written. If it's a magic fixed point in time, then surely, no adventures that might change those events can happen.

Yeah, it's a clumsy retcon, but it's rationalisable from his perspective only (ie, things are changeable but not by him since he'll change them later). His statements in 402 are quite vague though, so even for Doctor Dialogue Worshippers it's easy to basically ignore. It's not 'impossible to change history' as he states, because he later states that only SOME EVENTS are impossible to change. Sure, for Time Lord, only 'fixed' events would really count as history, but his explanation to Tate that she can't change any of history is so obviously false discussion isn't needed, and he even admits that with his 'fixed event' explanation.

The Web of Time shit in the books is retarded.

[Ohma]

It also helps to remember that the Doctor was originally a renegade in a stolen TARDIS. One could expect that if the show followed sort of the Whoverse equivalent of the Enterprise (rather than kinda' Han Solo in SPAAAA-er TIIIIIIMMMMEE, I'm sure someone else can think of a better parallel) that messing around with causality would be much less of a hassle.

[Raskolnikov]

after all one of his companions killed the dinosaurs, another companion is partially responsible for the big bang....

I believe the leper ship in Terminus had already created the universe regardless of the Doctor/companion involvement. They just stopped it from subsequently destroying the universe.

[Ghost Rider]

....*sigh*

Please refer to Annoucements and read the rules.