U.S. soldier uses Quran for target practice

[Kitsune]

My big problem is not that his actions were right but that he is a dumb and foolish kid in all probability.

I am quite sure that Muslim kids are just as bad. As such, you need to cut Americans in general a bit of slack.....

[Patrick Degan]

The soldier's actions were at direct variance to the U.S. Army Field Manual's directives regarding the conduct of personnel in zones of occupation towards the native population:

380. Respect for Human Rights

Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and private property, as well as religious convictions and practice, must be respected. (HR, art. 46, 1st par.)

—CH. 6.3.380

One of many directives based upon the laws of war as laid out in the Hague and Geneva Conventions and all personnel are subject to them as regards their conduct in combat and within zones of occupation.

[Zixinus]

But oh no, it's a religious book therefore it must be treated as something special! Rolling Eyes

It's a HOLY BOOK in a country where religion is taken very, very seriously. Using the Koran as target practise is making a statement and an idiotic one at that.

It doesn't matter whether the outrage is stupid or not, the fact that its quite obvious that it was caused deliberately is what matters.

If you are a soldier on foreign territory, its fairly common sense that you do your best not to piss off the locals and respect their customs and beliefs, no matter how stupid they are. You obviously are not expected to follow them to the letter and share them personally, but you need to show the locals that you do not have ill intent towards them. Using their most holy book for target practise is not anywhere near trying to do that.

Having soldiers among civilians is always a shaky situation, never mind when it happens on foreign ground. One that may be sitting on a seat of petroleum just waiting for a spark. Having a soldiers practically pissing on the locals most sacred beliefs will not help that, especially if and when the shit hits the fan.

Seriously, officers need to be very god damn strict about this. They are in a country where the general populace follows medieval mentality quite closely, and instead of pitchforks and torches, they are going to brake out the AKs and home-made pipebombs. Making sure that they are not giving them excuses for doing so is the duty of any officer in such a situation. If that fails, then do what must be done and kiss some ass for damage control because the alternative will be worse, which is what the officer did here.

[Singular Intellect]

Let me clarify my position; I do agree what he did is pretty stupid.

My point is that this 'stupidity' is only a result of the ignorance and brainwashing of the religion in question.

It's akin to pointing out a black man is stupid for trying to date a young white woman in a redneck town with a whole family of rednecks who like to lynch black folk in their spare time. One could honestly say what he's doing is stupid, but it's certaintly not wrong.

The stupidity of the act is dictated by the ignorance and intolerance of the 'offended' group, not what he actually did.

[General Zod]

Let me clarify my position; I do agree what he did is pretty stupid.

My point is that this 'stupidity' is only a result of the ignorance and brainwashing of the religion in question.

It's akin to pointing out a black man is stupid for trying to date a young white woman in a redneck town with a whole family of rednecks who like to lynch black folk in their spare time. One could honestly say what he's doing is stupid, but it's certaintly not wrong.

Did you bother reading anything anyone else said? Their duty is to reduce tensions in the area they are stationed at. NOT to increase them, regardless of their personal view of the religion in question. So yes, what they did was in fact wrong. Your analogy fails because a black man in a white redneck town has no such duty or obligations.

[Patrick Degan]

Let me clarify my position; I do agree what he did is pretty stupid.

My point is that this 'stupidity' is only a result of the ignorance and brainwashing of the religion in question.

It's akin to pointing out a black man is stupid for trying to date a young white woman in a redneck town with a whole family of rednecks who like to lynch black folk in their spare time. One could honestly say what he's doing is stupid, but it's certaintly not wrong.

The stupidity of the act is dictated by the ignorance and intolerance of the 'offended' group, not what he actually did.

Who cares?

The question is: "did he or did he not act in violation of directives clearly spelled out in the Army manual and the laws of war in regards to the treatment of the citizenry in zones of occupation". If the answer to that question is "yes, he did", he's GUILTY.

Everything else you're yammering on about is immaterial.

[Edi]

I am quite sure that Muslim kids are just as bad. As such, you need to cut Americans in general a bit of slack.....

Look, you asshat, when you're a soldier on a mission, there is no conceivable reason to cut any fucking slack to a moron who does this sort of shit. If you had been in the army and understood the first thing about shit like this, you'd be keeping your mouth shut. When you're in a goddamn combat zone, you DO NOT piss off the local civilians unless you have very fucking good reason to do so, especially not against orders and not over stupid shit like this.

Let me clarify my position; I do agree what he did is pretty stupid.

My point is that this 'stupidity' is only a result of the ignorance and brainwashing of the religion in question.

It's akin to pointing out a black man is stupid for trying to date a young white woman in a redneck town with a whole family of rednecks who like to lynch black folk in their spare time. One could honestly say what he's doing is stupid, but it's certaintly not wrong.

The stupidity of the act is dictated by the ignorance and intolerance of the 'offended' group, not what he actually did.

What the fuck part of not sabotaging your own mission and endangering your own troops over stupid shit do you not understand? When you are under legal orders from your superiors in a military organization to not do that, you simply nod politely to the stupid-ass religious customs and refrain from doing anything that violates said religious customs when the situation is per the OP. It is very different from a situation where civilian rednecks act like fucking asshats to another civilian, because none of them are constrained by standing orders they are required to follow. Moron.

[chitoryu12]

Let me clarify my position; I do agree what he did is pretty stupid.

My point is that this 'stupidity' is only a result of the ignorance and brainwashing of the religion in question.

It's akin to pointing out a black man is stupid for trying to date a young white woman in a redneck town with a whole family of rednecks who like to lynch black folk in their spare time. One could honestly say what he's doing is stupid, but it's certaintly not wrong.

The stupidity of the act is dictated by the ignorance and intolerance of the 'offended' group, not what he actually did.

This makes his actions no less dangerous. When two groups are extraordinarily tense with each other simply due to differing beliefs, you do NOT under any circumstances increase this tension by being an asshat. Would you mock a spree killer if you met him in an alleyway? It's generally considered total retardation to put yourself or any of your allies in a position to be attacked in revenge by a couple of nuts.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Why did the soldier think that shooting a Quran while in the Middle East could possibly be a good idea?

He was an idiot having some fun, or a Christian expressing his hatred towards a rival religion, and not thinking or not caring of the potential consequences, most likely. Expressing his hatred and/or contempt for the locals and their beliefs.

Because let's face it; while the reaction of the locals to this incident is way out of proportion, they are right about it's meaning. It WAS meant as an insult, and probably as a general threat towards Islam even if only a symbolic one by one guy.

Especially given the Christianity-versus-Islam overtones this war and occupation has always had. It's rather like some American theocratic extremist shooting the Constitution; symbolic violence against something he hates.

[Havok]

My big problem is not that his actions were right but that he is a dumb and foolish kid in all probability.

I am quite sure that Muslim kids are just as bad. As such, you need to cut Americans in general a bit of slack.....

Way to demonstrate your inability to read.
For all the people that DIDN'T read the article and want to call this soldier a "kid", or compare him to a one, he is a damned Staff Sergeant, a rank that can take about 10 years to reach.

At the very least, he is in his late 20s. Certainly not a kid, idiot.

[Kitsune]

Way to demonstrate your inability to read.
For all the people that DIDN'T read the article and want to call this soldier a "kid", or compare him to a one, he is a damned Staff Sergeant, a rank that can take about 10 years to reach.

At the very least, he is in his late 20s. Certainly not a kid, idiot.

He is a sniper, they are often fast tracked. I don't know what rank incentives the Army offers but you could reach E-6 in the navy within six years or so of joining. Twenty-Four is still a kid....

Besides, the rank is mentioned once that I can see

[ArmorPierce]

In who's world is 24 a kid? If you're a kid at 24 when do you stop being a kid? 25?

[Kitsune]

In who's world is 24 a kid? If you're a kid at 24 when do you stop being a kid? 25?

Depends on the person...looking back at almost 40, I see myself as extremely foolish at 24

[Wicked Pilot]

Feel free to point out where any military soldier (or in this case American one) is obligated (via his job description) to respect religious beliefs.

In the case of the US Military it's called General Order One. It among other things forbids porn, alcohol, some pork products, religious material that promotes Judaism, Zionism, communism, or anything contrary to Islam, the proselytizing for any religious faith, entry into a mosque, and a whole rash of other things to ensure we don't piss of the natives any more than we have to. That's the US policy, but let me guarantee you that every coalition nation out there has close to the same regs on their books.

[CmdrWilkens]

Feel free to point out where any military soldier (or in this case American one) is obligated (via his job description) to respect religious beliefs.

In the case of the US Military it's called General Order One. It among other things forbids porn, alcohol, some pork products, religious material that promotes Judaism, Zionism, communism, or anything contrary to Islam, the proselytizing for any religious faith, entry into a mosque, and a whole rash of other things to ensure we don't piss of the natives any more than we have to. That's the US policy, but let me guarantee you that every coalition nation out there has close to the same regs on their books.

Excepting the alcohol thing since every nation over there EXCEPT the US is drinking. But yes doing stupid shit like this is forbidden by direct order f the Commanding General, private stipe and rocker doesn't have a leg to stand on when going up against 4 stars.

[Kitsune]

According to what I am getting, he could be as young as 21.....

[starslayer]

According to what I am getting, he could be as young as 21.....

Still, what the fuck does it matter? Have you been paying any attention to what Edi, Degan, and anyone else with a brain are saying? He acted against direct fucking orders and severely pissed off the local populace. I'm not military and likely never will be, but even I know that you do not disobey orders regarding not pissing off the populace, or any orders at all, except when you have a DAMN good reason. This dumbass didn't. Even if he were a fresh 18-year old buck private, I would expect him to not do something like this. That is why his actions are stupid and wrong. I don't think we can say it any clearer.

[Zixinus]

The stupidity of the act is dictated by the ignorance and intolerance of the 'offended' group, not what he actually did.

IF he were in a civilian in a secular (by law, anyway) country. He was not. He was a soldier in a very religious country being juvenile, a behaviour that is unaccaptable. A soldier has to be disciplined about his behaviour (let's not get into when and how much) and he did not do so at all. He hates Islam? Well great, he can preach to his friends and back home as a citizen. But then and there, he was a soldier and he was to act like a soldier.

According to what I am getting, he could be as young as 21.....

Does it matter whether he's 21 or 24? Does that somehow excuse him? Does he not have the capacity to follow a simple directive by a couple years of difference?

If he is not able to make such judgement as "do not piss off the locals nursing AKs" then he is unfit to serve in foreign land.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

According to what I am getting, he could be as young as 21.....

You do realise that, regardless how old he is, he effectively, put his entire unit in danger.

Now that must sound all fine and well to you, to have put your fellow men's lives on the line. I won't be surprised if this fellow has been ostracized already by his own unit.

[Kitsune]

No, all I am saying is that people are stupid at times and that the younger they are, the more potential stupidity. He has been disciplined and taken home but that should be the end of it.

I am quite sure that Muslim youths do pretty stupid stuff as well. It should be treated as one stupid person making one stupid act not in general an act of the US Military in general

What bugs me is why his commanding officer could not say "Look, he did something stupid" instead of everything becoming 'The Evil Americans' not so much from here but from Iraq. I think they are being oversensitive about a book.

Of course the military wants such stuff to stay quiet as well. Most people prefer to keep their dirty laundry in-house. It does make me wonder if he might he done this to get out of Iraq.

Still, what the fuck does it matter? Have you been paying any attention to what Edi, Degan, and anyone else with a brain are saying? He acted against direct fucking orders and severely pissed off the local populace. I'm not military and likely never will be, but even I know that you do not disobey orders regarding not pissing off the populace, or any orders at all, except when you have a DAMN good reason. This dumbass didn't. Even if he were a fresh 18-year old buck private, I would expect him to not do something like this. That is why his actions are stupid and wrong. I don't think we can say it any clearer.

[Tolya]

What bugs me is why his commanding officer could not say "Look, he did something stupid" instead of everything becoming 'The Evil Americans' not so much from here but from Iraq. I think they are being oversensitive about a book.

For fucks sake, turn on your brain man! That BOOK is the basis of their religion, which in turns regulates their society and their way of life. Imagine someone coming to your house and shooting up your family's photo. Would you not be pissed?

Yes, it is a book. Yes, it is a shitload of crap. But we are not discussing the validity of religious arguments contained in there. The main point is that this book is extremely important to muslims.

There are thousands of people in Iraq who devote their daily lives to monitor what the coalition (Evil occupants in their regard) are doing and to make sure that such foolish acts are spun into anti US propaganda.

I am quite sure that Muslim youths do pretty stupid stuff as well. It should be treated as one stupid person making one stupid act not in general an act of the US Military in general

You do not get the simple fact, that the soldier in question is not just "one stupid person". By wearing his uniform, his unit badge and his country's flag he is effectively an ambassador of his country. Whatever he does gets projected onto the whole country. Especially if it's something bad, like in this case.

Ever heard of this thing called propaganda? There are people who want all outsiders OUT of Iraq NOW.

There is also this thing called public relations. I guess you are not very proficient in this field?

[Patrick Degan]

No, all I am saying is that people are stupid at times and that the younger they are, the more potential stupidity. He has been disciplined and taken home but that should be the end of it.

I am quite sure that Muslim youths do pretty stupid stuff as well. It should be treated as one stupid person making one stupid act not in general an act of the US Military in general

A Golden Mean Fallacy and a Red Herring in one package. Most efficient. Also utterly irrelevant to the issue before the bar.

What bugs me is why his commanding officer could not say "Look, he did something stupid" instead of everything becoming 'The Evil Americans' not so much from here but from Iraq. I think they are being oversensitive about a book.

What parts of "disobeying standing general orders not to piss off the native population" and "disregarding directives straight from the Army manual" elude your intellectual grasp, exactly?

Of course the military wants such stuff to stay quiet as well. Most people prefer to keep their dirty laundry in-house. It does make me wonder if he might he done this to get out of Iraq.

This fuckwit of a soldier disobeyed standing general orders and endangered the mission and his unit. This is why the military are prosecuting this. And if he did this just to get out of Iraq and fuck-all to the danger he put his comrades in, he deserves time in the stockade in addition to a dishonourable discharge.

[Kitsune]

There is also this thing called public relations. I guess you are not very proficient in this field?

I would not have done what he did now or even when I was his age.....
Still, I have seen some pretty crazy stuff from twenty year olds, especially at the younger side.....

Still, you guys are likely right....

[[R_H]]

Afghan Koran protest turns deadly

Two civilians and a Nato soldier have been killed in Afghanistan during a demonstration over the shooting of the Koran by a US soldier in Iraq.

The protest by over 1,000 people in Chagcharan turned violent after the crowd tried to storm a Nato base.

President Bush apologised earlier this week for the Koran incident, in which a copy of the book was found riddled with bullets at a shooting range in Iraq.

He also promised the soldier would be prosecuted.

The shooting broke out during clashes between the police and demonstrators outside a Nato reconstruction team base commanded by Lithuanian soldiers in Chagcharan, the capital of Ghor province.

Protesters were chanting anti-US slogans and throwing rocks, and tried to enter the gates of the base, police said.

General Ikramuddin Yawar, chief of police in western Afghanistan, said: "There was shooting during the demonstration. Two civilians have been killed. We don't know who shot them."

He added that the protest had been organised by students from a religious school.

But Nato said that Afghan police killed the two civilians, according to Reuters.

Apology

Nato also said in a statement that 10 Afghan police and seven civilians had been wounded in the incident.

A spokesman for Nato's International Security Force in Afghanistan (Isaf), Major Martin O'Donnell, said: "Isaf vehemently condemns this violence."

He added: "It is the people's right in a free and democratic society to stage peaceful demonstrations. Violent demonstrations, such as this, have no place in Afghanistan. Violent demonstrations cause tragedies such as we have witnessed today."

President Bush's apology was made during a video conference with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki.

The soldier was sent home by the US military after the copy of the Koran was discovered by Iraqi police.

He was unnamed, but said to be a staff sergeant in a sniper section.

Well done

[Korto]

Oh, for god's sake, court-martial the idiot for treason, for giving aid and comfort to the enemy, because that's what he did. Anti-US groups would make a meal over like this. Even if the case falls through, it might drive home how important this whole "Hearts and Minds" thing is supposed to be.