warhammer 40k question

[NecronLord]

Ok reading Hammer of Daemons when Justicar Alaric is taken prison by the Blood God forces. And they culture seem a bit like hell more thn anything but was wondering what are the other Chaos gods and what are their societies like? Also in the book they mentioned the palace of the blood god in the warp, does such a place really exist or is it just an idea?

Beforehand, I would have said it's just a notional thing. But the new demon codex clearly and solidly establishes that such realms in the warp exist, and that the gods have some pseudo-physical form in the warp.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Was Necoho more powerful during the Great Crusade than the other Chaos gods (Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle)? Would Malal have worshippers among Chaos cultists in the Imperium? Or would they be mistaken for cultists of the other Chaos gods?

Dunno and I would assume the latter.

Necoho is the Chaos God of Apostosy, he's a warp manifest paradox, as he opposes all religion, as you can see his following is the smallest since it is detrimental to his power. As atheism and agnosticism rises, so does Necoho's power.

An atheist god?

T'would appear so.

[NecronLord]

There's also a number of minor Chaos Gods: Malal is the Chaos God of Rebellion, Necoho the Chaos God of Apostasy, and Zavassin who seems to be the Chaos God of Failure.

If they exist, so do the other gods of WFB, which are even in WFB occasionally implied to be lies (the "terrible truth about the gods of men"). If they ever existed in 40K, there's a fair chance they're dead now, most 'gods' don't have the staying power of the four. Certainly Zavassin is meaningless, his role is more than adequately filled by Tzeentch, who now is incapable of following a plan through properly, because that's not chaotic. He's about planning, not achievement.

As far as I'm aware, Daemons with an affiliation are created by their masters. Daemons of Chaos Undivided would presumably spawn directly from the warp by the devotion of those aligned to Chaos Undivided.

Indeed. Furies and other things are created by indecisive souls, and forever (relatively) impotent and unimportant.

[andrewgpaul]

About the only major gods that didn't exist in both Fantasy and 40K were the Emperor and Sigmar. Obviously, there's the Chaos gods, then the Eldar pantheon, which as of 4th edition Warhammer is at least paralleled by the High Elven pantheon. Gork and Mork are in both, too.

The 4th edition Warhammer Armies: High Elves imports the Eldar Aspect Warrior concept into warhammer in one short story, and the 2nd edition Codex: Chaos introduces a Keeper of Secrets special character who also appears in Warhammer, getting slapped silly by the scions of Aenarion, three times so far.

OK, I exaggerate - there's no evidence that the other human gods - Ulric, Taal, Shallya, etc, are in 40K.

As for the role of those lesser gods in the 40K setting, the sources General Schatten mentions are old Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay sourcebooks; there's never been a mention of them in 40K.

[Imperial Overlord]

Malal has been alluded to, but never directly mentioned, in the 2nd edition WFRP. The elves are also aware that their gods and many of the gods of men are the same things with different names but usually don't bother trying to explain that to humans because they get upset. WFRP implies that the gods of men and elves are different from the gods of chaos in

1) weaker

2) having more personality (as opposed to raw emotion)

Presumably the stronger they the more the traits they personify will dominate and obliterate their personality.

In WFRP, Tzeentch is still the grand schemer who isn't incompetent.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Necoho is the Chaos God of Apostosy, he's a warp manifest paradox, as he opposes all religion, as you can see his following is the smallest since it is detrimental to his power. As atheism and agnosticism rises, so does Necoho's power.

An atheist god?

T'would appear so.

Well, it worked well enough for the God of Evolution. He didn't believe in himself so much as he knew that he existed. Quite certainly

[Adrian Laguna]

For anyone who wants to know what goes on in the depths of the Warp, I cannot recommend Daemonworld enough. Not only does it cover the subject very well, but it is also fucking awesome.

[Cykeisme]

About the only major gods that didn't exist in both Fantasy and 40K were the Emperor and Sigmar.

I'm sure you're aware of it, but for the benefit of others, it's worth stating that there were theories that Sigmar was one of the two lost Primarchs, with attendant hints including the fact that the comet spotted on the day of his appearance, and that he generally did what Primarchs do (unite his people and lead them to glory).

The Warhammer Fantasy planet was supposed to be a world isolated by warp storms for so long, till the point that the familiar races there no longer have any memory of anything beyond their world.

Considering Sigmar's Primarch connection and the identical nature of Chaos, it all came together very elegantly.

Though the connection/intention was clearly intentional GW later stated for the record that this was not the case.
Understandably, Warhammer Fantasy players and fans didn't like the idea that the entire setting was just a single planet in the glorious 40k galaxy.

[loomer]

Personally, I love that idea. Especially since it gives you an excuse to model 'alternate' magic weapons. That Biting Sword?

Yeah. It's a chainsword now.

[SylasGaunt]

Personally, I love that idea. Especially since it gives you an excuse to model 'alternate' magic weapons. That Biting Sword?

Yeah. It's a chainsword now.

I believe a number of WHF chaos champions have gotten ahold of chainswords gifted to them by the chaos gods or some such, at least I seem to remember one mentioned in Liber Chaotica.

[loomer]

Yeah, it was even in early Warhammer rules. It's just a lot of players say 'no' to that, the dicks.

[Darth Hoth]

Since we are on the topic of the Chaos Gods, I might as well ask: Is Khaine and Khorne the same, as the old fluff has it, or has that since been ret-conned?

[Darth Hoth]

Malal has been alluded to, but never directly mentioned, in the 2nd edition WFRP. The elves are also aware that their gods and many of the gods of men are the same things with different names but usually don't bother trying to explain that to humans because they get upset. WFRP implies that the gods of men and elves are different from the gods of chaos in

1) weaker

2) having more personality (as opposed to raw emotion)

This is also corroborated by the 6th edition Hordes of Chaos book for the war game, if I recall correctly. I think that book also has the Gods of Men related to Chaos by being manifestations of positive emotions.

[Imperial Overlord]

Since we are on the topic of the Chaos Gods, I might as well ask: Is Khaine and Khorne the same, as the old fluff has it, or has that since been ret-conned?

The Tome of Salvation goes into this in a great deal of detail (because in WF, Khaine is also worshiped by human cultists). The similarities are known by Old World scholars and can't possibly have escaped the elves either. Among the dark elves the cults of Khaine and Slaanesh are hostile to each other. Khaine does have some very unKhorne like traits, such as granting magic to his priests and approving of its use. In WF, Khaine is likely to be an aspect of Khorne, probably a manifestation of elven war and murder lust (which would explain his capacity for greater intellectualism and sorcery). Khorne is a chaos god created out of pooled emotion and having several different warring personalities in his mind (see the Emperor in Inquisition Wars) would seem to be within their boundaries of "normal".

[Lord Relvenous]

For an interesting off-beat theory on Malal read Daemonhunters serve chaos!!! It starts with pointing out a small coincidence, and goes from there. Good for a laugh.

(essentially, the Emperor is Malal)[/url]

[Darth Hoth]

Since we are on the topic of the Chaos Gods, I might as well ask: Is Khaine and Khorne the same, as the old fluff has it, or has that since been ret-conned?

The Tome of Salvation goes into this in a great deal of detail (because in WF, Khaine is also worshiped by human cultists). The similarities are known by Old World scholars and can't possibly have escaped the elves either. Among the dark elves the cults of Khaine and Slaanesh are hostile to each other. Khaine does have some very unKhorne like traits, such as granting magic to his priests and approving of its use. In WF, Khaine is likely to be an aspect of Khorne, probably a manifestation of elven war and murder lust (which would explain his capacity for greater intellectualism and sorcery). Khorne is a chaos god created out of pooled emotion and having several different warring personalities in his mind (see the Emperor in Inquisition Wars) would seem to be within their boundaries of "normal".

So the official position now is that Khaine is considered an aspect of Khorne by many in-universe, but that this cannot be verified? Thanks.

The reason I asked was because I have read (in an old White Dwarf article on Witch Elves, if I recall correctly) that they are confirmedly the same, although the elves do not recognise this.

[Imperial Overlord]

So the official position now is that Khaine is considered an aspect of Khorne by many in-universe, but that this cannot be verified? Thanks.

That's correct. Also, Witch Elves occasionally use Khornate symbols.

[Connor MacLeod]

I vageuly recall White Rabbit and a few others mentioning on different occasions that some soures ( I can't think of specific ones) indicate that many vehicles that have some computerized element to them (IE Titans, some Land Raiders, etc.) have computers that have animal mind "imprints" on them after a fashion (behavioural patterns, etc.)

Also, I also vaguely recall that some of the AdMech higher ups can sometimes have their own memories/identities and neural processes implanted/imprinted into computers (the most immediate one I can think of is the dude from Dark Adeptus or the ArchMagos in Storm of Iron)

Anyone corroborate/correct any of that from my memory?

[white_rabbit]

Liber Chaotica has an interesting look at the Slaanesh/Khorne/Khaine love triangle, as well as the " Is Khaine Khorne? " question.

Essentially its related that during the rather excessive conflicts in which the Eldar fought against the Necrons, "khaine" was basically lost to destruction and war, possibly culminating in the brutal murder of Eldanesh, a legendary hero of eldar mythology, described as the last individual capable of summoning and controlling the Eldar gods/superweapons.

The Wargod still holds some sort of link to the eldar however, and strives against the growing power of Slaanesh, supposedly to give the denizens of the galaxy a chance to turn away from decadence and non-christian values.

Having previously poked a few holes in Kaelis Ra, and absorbed the shards of Necrodermis, the raging fury of "Khorne" is trapped in a specific form, which is shattered by the birth of Slaanesh, an apparent universal inevitability.

Bits rain down across time and space, and become the Avatars, Khorne, freed from his prison, returns to the "orbit" of the chaos gods, this being a term used previously to describe the metaphorical or metaphysical path the four powers chart through the warp.


In keeping with the multiple aspect/schizo observations, its possible that the Eldar attuned portions of the divine psyche are mostly resident in the Avatars, the corrupted Necrodermis offering an imperishable host for chaotic energies of incredible magnitude, compared to frail mortal flesh, hence why Khaine the Eldar God doesn't exist in the Warp, but hasn't been consumed by Slaanesh.

With the legend about Isha surviving and being Nurgles little test-bed, you have to wonder how many Eldar deities are still around ?

[Darth Hoth]

[Bullshitting]Might Vaul the the Omnissiah?[/Bullshitting]

Another thought struck me... Assuming that Sigmar was a lost Primarch, what does that make Drachenfels?

[andrewgpaul]

For added shits and giggles, the Chaos gods, and Drachenfels, get a mention in GW's old Dark Future game (a millennial Mad Max-style road combat game, set in the USA).

Constant Drachenfels is a Homo Erectus with a very strong survival instinct.

[Shroom Man 777]

As for the Machine Spirits, Imperial and Chaos-corrupted Titans DO have them. To the point where theirs are so immensely powerful that they are impenetrable to attacks from reverse-psykers (nulls/blanks) - even capable of reversing the attack and killing said reverse-psyker!

[Siege]

I vageuly recall White Rabbit and a few others mentioning on different occasions that some soures ( I can't think of specific ones) indicate that many vehicles that have some computerized element to them (IE Titans, some Land Raiders, etc.) have computers that have animal mind "imprints" on them after a fashion (behavioural patterns, etc.)

There's a reference to this in Battle of the Archaeosaurs (page 723 of the Let the galaxy burn omnibus):

The Lex et Annihilato roared. Warlord Titans had the imprinted mental nature of the grizzly bear, a powerful bad-tempered animal native to Terra, and this sometimes made them difficult to handle.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I vageuly recall White Rabbit and a few others mentioning on different occasions that some soures ( I can't think of specific ones) indicate that many vehicles that have some computerized element to them (IE Titans, some Land Raiders, etc.) have computers that have animal mind "imprints" on them after a fashion (behavioural patterns, etc.)

There's a reference to this in Battle of the Archaeosaurs (page 723 of the Let the galaxy burn omnibus):

The Lex et Annihilato roared. Warlord Titans had the imprinted mental nature of the grizzly bear, a powerful bad-tempered animal native to Terra, and this sometimes made them difficult to handle.

Do we have to treat this story as canonical? The thing has giant dinosaurs smashing titans and controlled via neural acupuncture by tribesmen .
In addition, modern stories seem to indicate that Titans have a powerful machine spirit/AI/personality, but that it's not based on animals, more something that develops or exists. (that is, it's not an imprint). [/Feeble attempt to retcon]

[Zablorg]

How machiney does a machine have to be in order to be considered to have a spirit? Can it be as simple as three gears, a power source and a button?