Chicago Foi Gras Ban Repealed

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-05-19 04:38pm

Yeah, I've had chicken liver. One major difference is that chicken liver is a fuck of a lot cheaper.

Not that I have any objection to people who wish to spend their money on expensive gourmet tidbits. It's just not how I want to spend my money.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-05-19 04:52pm

Shoot, ban fois-gras and the next thing you know they'll be banning veal, and I love to have veal 2 or 3 times a year.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2008-05-19 08:26pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Shoot, ban fois-gras and the next thing you know they'll be banning veal, and I love to have veal 2 or 3 times a year.

Ugh. Veal is one of the few foods that I have sworn off solely due to ethical concerns.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-05-19 08:51pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:(foie gras, I believe, actually means "fattened goose").

Fat liver, actually.

Supposedly, there are non-cruel ways of getting foie gras but I'll be damned if I've ever come across a description of them that don't involve some sort of qualifier.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2008-05-19 08:56pm

Molyneux wrote:Veal is one of the few foods that I have sworn off solely due to ethical concerns.

Why? It's just young cow instead of the typical old cow.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-05-19 09:00pm

Adrian Laguna wrote:
Molyneux wrote:Veal is one of the few foods that I have sworn off solely due to ethical concerns.
Why? It's just young cow instead of the typical old cow.

Because the way you get what is considered the best veal is to lock the calf in to a pen and not allow it to move about.

In theory, you're correct. In practice, not necessarily so.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2008-05-20 12:01am

Why? It's just young cow instead of the typical old cow.

Many types of veal served require the farmer to deliberately induce anemia in the calf. It also often involves taking the calf very early from the mother.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-05-20 08:19am

Let's clear this up about veal, OK?

When dairy cows have calves the sex ratio is 50/50 (actually, nowadays that's changing but it's a very recent development). The cows you keep because they will grow up into valuable milk-producing animals. However, you only need a very few bulls to continue the breed. The rest are extra.

In the old days, farmers slaughtered these extra bull calves almost immediately rather than feed them, because feeding costs them money. The farmers then ate said calves because why let the meat go to waste? Veal wasn't particularly popular outside of farms.

Then it became fashionable. Some cooks started getting fancy with it and next thing you know people outside of farms want to eat veal. Well, OK, farmers started selling the veal as well as eating it themselves. But now there was a demand for veal.

So the farmers started feeding the veal calves.

The problem is, there's only a very short time before the calf matures and the meat changes from veal to ordinary beef. Over time, the farmers learned how to extend that time by restricting the calf's movements, and systematically depriving it of certain nutrients (iron, for example, which would otherwise darken the veal).

ALL veal calves (with the exception of those slaughtered soon after birth) live weeks in a confined spaces, have their movements restricted, and are fed an inadequate diet that yes, invariably makes them anemic. By the time they reach slaughter they are typically pretty weak and sick

Personally, I don't eat veal for ethical reasons - this just does not strike me as a happy life and I do not wish to take part in it in any way. I can't stop it, but I don't have to participate, either. Yes, I realize beef animals don't have a particularly wonderful life, either, but they get to move around more than veal calves and at least they are adequately fed. That's where I draw the line, your mileage may vary.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2008-05-20 08:32am

Broomstick wrote:When dairy cows have calves the sex ratio is 50/50 (actually, nowadays that's changing but it's a very recent development). The cows you keep because they will grow up into valuable milk-producing animals. However, you only need a very few bulls to continue the breed. The rest are extra.

Actually, dairy farmers haven't needed to keep any bulls for years due to artificial insemination. So basically any bulls born are either sold for meat or sold to breeders.

Learned that while growing up near a dairy farm. That farmer never sold veal calves, though. Even if the calf was a bull, he'd take the mother off milking duty so she could nurse it. Then when the bull matured past the nursing stage, he'd sell it.

Mayabird · Post by **Mayabird** » 2008-05-20 08:38am

I demand double-blind taste tests to see if fois gras really is as tasty and different from ordinary bird liver as people claim, or just an effect of people spending a lot of money and thinking that it tastes better. Tests with wine showed that people thought the exact same wine tasted better if it had a higher price tag on it.

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2008-05-20 09:56am

Most Americans think McDonalds is acceptable food. You're not going to find those double-blind studies, because the overwhelming majority of people have shit palettes.

I'd suspect (without having seen the wine studies you're referring to) that the same goes for wine. Moreover, any "wine snob" (or, more accurately, someone who appreciates wine) will tell you that the price of a wine has little correlation with its taste. A lot of Spanish wines I've had, for example, are really good and really fucking cheap at the same time.

I know people like to mix the two up out of some kind of misplaced sense of class-warfare, but there's a big difference between the tastes of gourmands and the tastes of rich idiots who just are throwing money around.

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2008-05-20 10:00am

Let me just add that I think it's perfectly alright if people don't like foie, or boudin noir, or whatever. Less demand = more for me.

What I find obnoxious is when people who do care about food are accused of being some kind of jack-booted thugs of good taste. Or when PETA assholes decide that they're going to play some game of legal & extralegal intimidation with artisanal producers and the small restaurants that serve their products.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-05-20 11:01am

Civil War Man wrote:
Broomstick wrote:When dairy cows have calves the sex ratio is 50/50 (actually, nowadays that's changing but it's a very recent development). The cows you keep because they will grow up into valuable milk-producing animals. However, you only need a very few bulls to continue the breed. The rest are extra.
Actually, dairy farmers haven't needed to keep any bulls for years due to artificial insemination. So basically any bulls born are either sold for meat or sold to breeders.

You probably meant to say this, but you DO need a few bulls of a dairy breed around to get the sperm for artificial insemination. Even in the past, a lot of dairy farmers never kept bulls, they paid stud fees to someone who did.

There is now the issue of so few bulls being kept that the genetic diversity of dairy breeds is becoming very diminished, and problems of inbreeding, but that's a different topic.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2008-05-20 12:54pm

Mayabird wrote:I demand double-blind taste tests to see if fois gras really is as tasty and different from ordinary bird liver as people claim, or just an effect of people spending a lot of money and thinking that it tastes better. Tests with wine showed that people thought the exact same wine tasted better if it had a higher price tag on it.

That reminds me of a Penn and Teller episode where they filled up several bottles of water from a hose in the back of a restaurant, put fancy labels on them, and served them to guests with the aid of a "Water Stewart", then recorded all the BS people were saying about the various waters.

People will claim that bottled water tastes vastly superior to tap water simply because it is sold to them, even if both come from the same municipal source.

I wouldn't be surprised if foie gras was the same way.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-05-20 12:59pm

Mayabird wrote:I demand double-blind taste tests to see if fois gras really is as tasty and different from ordinary bird liver as people claim, or just an effect of people spending a lot of money and thinking that it tastes better.

What about texture? I don't remember the exact reasons that people want foie gras (I don't eat any organ meats personally) but I seem to recall that because the amount of fat is different than in a standard liver that the texture is different and can be used for different applications.

Turin, can you shed some light on that?

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-05-20 01:03pm

The Spartan wrote: What about texture? I don't remember the exact reasons that people want foie gras (I don't eat any organ meats personally) but I seem to recall that because the amount of fat is different than in a standard liver that the texture is different and can be used for different applications.

Turin, can you shed some light on that?

Well, fat is responsible for taste in a way, so a fattened lived is probable to taste differently.

Water and wine are different because they're pretty much the same substance no matter of sold for 30 or 3 dollars.

Well, okay. 3 dollar wine is probably going to be pretty nasty

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-05-20 01:06pm

PeZook wrote:Well, fat is responsible for taste in a way, so a fattened lived is probable to taste differently.

Water and wine are different because they're pretty much the same substance no matter of sold for 30 or 3 dollars.

Well, okay. 3 dollar wine is probably going to be pretty nasty

But is it enough to change the flavor for anything but the most sensitive of gourmand pallets? I'm certain it'll change the texture but it's the flavor that I'm not sure of. That's what I'm trying to get at.

And yeah, I don't want to think about 3 dollar wine. My pallet isn't good enough to justify spending a hundred dollars on a bottle but 3 dollar wine probably comes in cans...

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-05-20 01:13pm

The Spartan wrote: And yeah, I don't want to think about 3 dollar wine. My pallet isn't good enough to justify spending a hundred dollars on a bottle but 3 dollar wine probably comes in cans...

I suppose it depends where you buy it. In Poland, I can easily get good Romanian wines for around 5 dollars (yes, in glass bottles

). I use them occasionally as cooking ingredients and they taste great.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-05-20 01:15pm

PeZook wrote:
The Spartan wrote: And yeah, I don't want to think about 3 dollar wine. My pallet isn't good enough to justify spending a hundred dollars on a bottle but 3 dollar wine probably comes in cans...
I suppose it depends where you buy it. In Poland, I can easily get good Romanian wines for around 5 dollars (yes, in glass bottles ). I use them occasionally as cooking ingredients and they taste great.

A full 750ml? Or a small bottle with enough for cooking and maybe a sip or a glass?

Maybe it's just the area or the fact that I'm more likely to buy beer than wine but I've yet to encounter anything under about $10 that I found drinkable.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-05-20 01:16pm

The Spartan wrote: But is it enough to change the flavor for anything but the most sensitive of gourmand pallets? I'm certain it'll change the texture but it's the flavor that I'm not sure of. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Sometimes the texture is the whole point though. It's the difference between a cheap reprocessed steak that's tough as leather that you can throw in the microwave and premium slab of beef grilled on a bbq that practically melts the minute you put it in your mouth.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-05-20 01:18pm

The Spartan wrote: A full 750ml? Or a small bottle with enough for cooking and maybe a sip or a glass?

Yeah, a full 750ml. Of course the exact price depends on the current exchange rate of the dollar

The Spartan wrote: Maybe it's just the area or the fact that I'm more likely to buy beer than wine but I've yet to encounter anything under about $10 that I found drinkable.

I love the exchange rate!

I'd recommend a brand but, frankly, I don't remember any offhand

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2008-05-20 01:24pm

The Spartan wrote:
PeZook wrote:Well, fat is responsible for taste in a way, so a fattened lived is probable to taste differently.
But is it enough to change the flavor for anything but the most sensitive of gourmand pallets? I'm certain it'll change the texture but it's the flavor that I'm not sure of. That's what I'm trying to get at.

The texture is dramatically different (unfattened liver has a bit of "grit" to it, actually). Organ meats are fatty in general, so the fat is the primary flavor component -- adding more fat obviously adds to this. I'd also point out that the extra fat allows you to do things with foie that you wouldn't really be able to pull off with ordinary liver. For example, my favorite preparation of foie is "foie butter," which you serve with meat (liver or a steak) has a texture like warm apple sauce. You can't pull that off with typical geese liver.

The Spartan wrote:
PeZook wrote:Water and wine are different because they're pretty much the same substance no matter of sold for 30 or 3 dollars.

Well, okay. 3 dollar wine is probably going to be pretty nasty
And yeah, I don't want to think about 3 dollar wine. My pallet isn't good enough to justify spending a hundred dollars on a bottle but 3 dollar wine probably comes in cans...

Funny you say that. There's a store called Trader Joe's that (outside of Pennsylvania and Utah) sells a wine they call Two Buck Chuck... it's something like $2.30 a bottle. It's not great wine, but it's too not bad if you're just having some wine and pizza on a summer night.

Pricing in wine is pretty fucked up, because it combines large variations in both quantity and quality of supply over time with demand variations like vintage speculation, and "swingy" trends amongst consumers.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-05-20 01:31pm

Turin wrote:The texture is dramatically different (unfattened liver has a bit of "grit" to it, actually). Organ meats are fatty in general, so the fat is the primary flavor component -- adding more fat obviously adds to this. I'd also point out that the extra fat allows you to do things with foie that you wouldn't really be able to pull off with ordinary liver. For example, my favorite preparation of foie is "foie butter," which you serve with meat (liver or a steak) has a texture like warm apple sauce. You can't pull that off with typical geese liver.

That's more or less what I expected.

Funny you say that. There's a store called Trader Joe's that (outside of Pennsylvania and Utah) sells a wine they call Two Buck Chuck... it's something like $2.30 a bottle. It's not great wine, but it's too not bad if you're just having some wine and pizza on a summer night.

Wine and pizza?

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2008-05-20 01:39pm

The Spartan wrote:
Turin wrote:Funny you say that. There's a store called Trader Joe's that (outside of Pennsylvania and Utah) sells a wine they call Two Buck Chuck... it's something like $2.30 a bottle. It's not great wine, but it's too not bad if you're just having some wine and pizza on a summer night.
Wine and pizza?

Sure, why not? A glass of inexpensive rioja or presecco with a little crispy-crusted brick-oven pizza. Mm mm mmm. Good "Friday night in with the girlfriend and a movie" stuff.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-05-20 03:06pm

Turin wrote:Sure, why not? A glass of inexpensive rioja or presecco with a little crispy-crusted brick-oven pizza. Mm mm mmm. Good "Friday night in with the girlfriend and a movie" stuff.

I know, I was just teasing a little bit about how the standard is typically beer and pizza. In America at any rate.

Though with the right quality pizza a red would go down nicely.