Latest dumbshit creationist (May 9, 2008)

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, that's just dumb thinking. You tell her that God promised NOT to flood people to death as punishment again. She should be looking at the Burmese cyclone and Chinese earthquake for REAL examples of God's punishment.

But the Old Testament doesn't (ever) count!

When you think about it, you're actually doing them a favour: they're all going to hell anyway, so if even if you only "save" 1 per every hundred people you kill, you're still decreasing the net suffering of the population.

Indeed. Only a fool would care for the physicalities of this life! For the true rewards come from the spiritual, and all that is important is in the Second Life! In Jesus' name we pray, amen.

Our Lord is a just and loving God! A God of compassion and mercy! Those who do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and personal Savior will burn in the eternal fires of hell.

Hallelujah!


[I was raised in an environment sorta like this. It is a miracle I got my head out of that. Thanks, guys ]

[Rye]

Why would I as a Christian ever elect Nazis?

Look at Supes' post again. There's a fuckload of christians that positively get boners over statements like this:

"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past ... (few) years. "

Imagine being in Europe with the rise of Marxism, the godless philosophy that wants to destroy religion and bourgeois heritage, and you're in a shit country drowned by debt, and this man comes up, organises things and gives everyone a means to get their community spirit back with you and yours in charge. You get pride again after being brought so low in the last war. You will be able to strike back at those who brought you low, you will be able to purify all the dangerous ideas of homosexuality as a good thing, all those dangerous liberal ideas that are close to the communists. It would be easy to see why Hitler would be popular now in heavily christian areas, let alone back then.

They're nothing but violent, murderous, war-mongering thugs. Why would I as a Christian ever support something like the Spanish Inquisition?

They keep the heretics at bay.

They're nothing but violent, murderous, war-mongering thugs who burn folks for reading their bloody Bibles (where they'd find that the lying bastards were full of shit, anyways.) Why would I, as a Christian, support a crusade to 'recover' Jerusalem from the Saracens?

It's what God wants. Who are you to argue with God?

Why would I support any of these things, when my Bible tells me to love my enemies and turn the other cheek?

Your bible also tells you that you're God's chosen people and obedience to God's divine commands (and the commands of his representative on Earth) is more important than your own moral compass. There's also a good chance you can't even read the Bible and receive guidance through the church and priest only. You're at their mercy.

Sure, Hitler might've talked a lot about Jesus and said he was a Christian, but I think it's pretty obvious that he wasn't trying to actually be one.

You're adding values into the definition of Christian just like I pointed out. You have had the wool pulled over your eyes, you equate Christian to moral, this conveniently allows you to dismiss immoral christians as not christians (thus outside your group) though you'd still forgive them and let them back into the fols if they repented. You'd also find it difficult to spot immorality in your own ranks because by simply being christians, you would automatically endow them with a moral aura, even if hypocrisy was rampant, which it almost always is.

I'm sure you'd have no trouble rejecting a man who claimed to be an atheist (for the sake of example) and yet regularly attended church, attempted to perform miracles, etc. How is this any different?

He believed Jesus was his lord and saviour. John 3:16.

A quick review of what I've been taught tells me that there's no good reason for me as a Christian to support such a regime at all.

So why would you try to say that they're Christian?

By their own words, they believed in Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour. Their victims were chosen by the acceptable targets within the Christian community at the time. Immigrants. Jews. Gays. It's not changed that much.

[Darth Wong]

Why would I as a Christian ever elect Nazis?

Millions of German Christians elected the Nazis in the 1930s, you goddamned idiot. One of their first acts in power was to bring back the Christian "Lord's Prayer" in German schools.

You fucking "Christians don't do bad things" assholes make me sick. You're fucking ignorant of 99% of your own motherfucking history; you are blissfully unaware of the Christian connection to Nazism, negro slavery, or Manifest Destiny, because you don't have the goddamned intelligence or motor co-ordination to open a fucking book and read it before you spout your foul-stinking ignorant bullshit all over the Internet.

[SpacedTeddyBear]

Why would I as a Christian ever elect Nazis? They're nothing but violent, murderous, war-mongering thugs. Why would I as a Christian ever support something like the Spanish Inquisition? They're nothing but violent, murderous, war-mongering thugs who burn folks for reading their bloody Bibles (where they'd find that the lying bastards were full of shit, anyways.) Why would I, as a Christian, support a crusade to 'recover' Jerusalem from the Saracens?

You'd support them if you were living back then, because such behavior was socially accepted back then. Some of the most appalling events that occurred
throughout human history was caused when some dick in a fancy hat decided to enforce the teachings of God domestically and abroad while solidifying their own sovereignty. And every single one of them was perfectly justified by the bible ( some of which is already listed). The reason why it's easy for you to question their christian authenticity, was due to an enlightened few who decided that the bible was not a good source of how a society should function to say the least.

[Darth Wong]

Let's just say that Christianity is very, very good at lending divine authority to cultural values, whatever those values may be.

[Phillip Hone]

Why would I as a Christian ever elect Nazis?

One way in which the Nazi party was appealing to Christians was their fanatical hatred of atheistic Marxists. Propaganda articles such as this created the impression that there were communist Jews who were set on destroying the Christian religion and the German Volk. As part of their crusade against communism, the Nazis even reopened Christian churches in the occupied Soviet Union (see "Hitler's Pope"). There were plenty of reasons for a Christian to support the Nazi movement.

[PeZook]

One way in which the Nazi party was appealing to Christians was their fanatical hatred of atheistic Marxists. Propaganda articles such as this created the impression that there were communist Jews who were set on destroying the Christian religion and the German Volk. As part of their crusade against communism, the Nazis even reopened Christian churches in the occupied Soviet Union (see "Hitler's Pope"). There were plenty of reasons for a Christian to support the Nazi movement.

It's a testament to how attractive such ideas are, that even today there exists a myth of the huge network of Jewish-Communists bent on eating our babies and subverting our governments though nefarious godless means.

There are plenty of Christians in Central Europe who lap this shit up. Scare them with the Communist Jewish Conspiracy, and they will do practically anything.

Of course, by some definitions, this automatically makes them non-christians.

[Wyrm]

Why would I as a Christian ever elect Nazis?

"Nazi" wasn't a tainted word at the time.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Why would I as a Christian ever elect Nazis? ... Why would I, as a Christian, support a crusade to 'recover' Jerusalem from the Saracens?

I dunno, ask the Christians who took part in the Crusades... or the Christians who elected the Nazi party into power... or the Christians who supported slavery up until and long past the point of the US Civil War ... or the Christians who burned thousands of suspected 'witches' ... or the Christians who followed 'manifest destiny' and used it as carte blanche to exterminate hundreds of thousands of native americans through any means available, including deliberate spread of disease and constant treaty breaking.

The descriptor 'Christian' covers a LOT of people, and not all of them are good. Deal with it.

Why would I support any of these things, when my Bible tells me to love my enemies and turn the other cheek?

The Bible also tells you to kill witches, stone unruly children and exterminate your neighbors who don't believe in the same god, you fucking twit.

I'm sure you'd have no trouble rejecting a man who claimed to be an atheist (for the sake of example) and yet regularly attended church, attempted to perform miracles, etc. How is this any different?

Because the requirements for being a Christian are as follows:

1) You must believe that the mythological figure, Jesus Christ, as described in the gospels, is the divine Son of God.

Hitler believed that, thus he's a Christian. Nothing else is required.

A quick review of what I've been taught tells me that there's no good reason for me as a Christian to support such a regime at all.

Wrong, twit. There's no good reason for you as a moral human to support such a regime, Christianity doesn't even enter into it.

So why would you try to say that they're Christian?

Because they are, is that so hard to swallow?

Have I merely misunderstood you?

Obviously.

And another thing I never got is the whole "lol they're trying to trick you!" deal that Mike keeps talking about. Maybe it's just because I am one already, but I've never observed new guys being intentionally put with the pretty girls or vice versa (for example.) We aren't like that. We simply introduce new folks to other folks, and hope that they come back again. We don't mention that they're <insert belief system here>. They're just 'new.' They could be from another church, for all that's said about them. There's no show, no smoke or mirrors, and no underhanded trickery like some seem to suggest.

Well, damn! Your one personal testimony *surely* trumps the mountains of well evidenced and referenced accounts of exactly the opposite taking place!

Maybe the Christians you know are like that, but I'm not, and neither are the ones that I know. I'd rather you didn't try to paint us all with the same brush.

Fuck off. If you can't accept the fact that not everyone who shares the same religious label as you is a good person, you're the one with the problem, not us.

I, personally, am rather offended that you repeatedly state in your little tirade that morality can be equated to Christianity, to the point where you could easily substitute one word for the other and the argument remains the same. What the hell is your problem, non-Christians are suddenly incapable of being moral anymore? Sounds like you're the one trying to paint everyone with the same brush.

[Zixinus]

You're fucking ignorant of 99% of your own motherfucking history; you are blissfully unaware of the Christian connection to Nazism, negro slavery, or Manifest Destiny, because you don't have the goddamned intelligence or motor co-ordination to open a fucking book and read it before you spout your foul-stinking ignorant bullshit all over the Internet.

Oh no, its not that they are unwilling to open a book. They open books all the time, even other books then the Bible. It's just that they use the same energy that normal people do in the search of truth and reason for denial.

[Plekhanov]

<snip obfuscatory bullshit>

How about Hitler's friend and ally Franco? Are you going to tell us he wasn't a Christian either despite him being about as zealous a Catholic as it's possible to be?

[Shroom Man 777]

Catholics aren't True Christians. Come on, we gotta burn those catlick paddies! Come on, let's be good Anglos.

It's really wonderful. All over the world, regardless of politics or belief or religion, those who paint themselves in the most beautiful and noble of lights are almost always the ugliest and most wretched ones ^__^

[Lonestar]

How about Hitler's friend and ally Franco? Are you going to tell us he wasn't a Christian either despite him being about as zealous a Catholic as it's possible to be?

Catholics ain't Christian.

I believe I saw a Jack Chick tract to that effect.

[Lonestar]

DAMN YOU SHROOM MAN!

[Shroom Man 777]

Oh, and yeah, I got that shit a lot too when I was in my old Christian School.

It's a testament to the laid-backness of the Philippines though. On one hand, a nutty few enjoy nailing themselves to crosses every Easter Sunday. Yet, on the other hand, you don't really see various sects killing one another here, like perhaps what happens in other Third World shitholes.

We got Catholics, charismatic Christians (even from Korea!), m-m-m-Mormons (white American folks walking around in pairs, wearing polo shirts and slacks! you can tell so easily), Iglesia ni Kristoes, and etcetera.

[Kanastrous]

We got Catholics, charismatic Christians (even from Korea!), m-m-m-Mormons (white American folks walking around in pairs, wearing polo shirts and slacks! you can tell so easily), Iglesia ni Kristoes, and etcetera.

You got tranny beauty contests where neighborhood priests come and help judge.

[The Spartan]

... or the Christians who followed 'manifest destiny' and used it as carte blanche to exterminate hundreds of thousands of native americans through any means available, including deliberate spread of disease and constant treaty breaking.

I'm nitpicking a bit here, but should that be millions of Native Americans? IIRC, there were some 25 million people (approximately) living in the Americas at the time of Columbus' landing and by the 20th century there were less than 2 million.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

... or the Christians who followed 'manifest destiny' and used it as carte blanche to exterminate hundreds of thousands of native americans through any means available, including deliberate spread of disease and constant treaty breaking.

I'm nitpicking a bit here, but should that be millions of Native Americans? IIRC, there were some 25 million people (approximately) living in the Americas at the time of Columbus' landing and by the 20th century there were less than 2 million.

I didn't have the exact numbers on hand, so I was being *very* conservative with the death rate.

[Akhlut]

Regarding the Crusades argument: there were people who didn't believe in Jesus inhabiting the Holy Land. This means the blessed relics and places of Jesus and the early Christians were threatened by the hordes of Godless heathens. Plus, the Vicar of Christ on Earth, the man whom God spoke through, guaranteed a place in Heaven for those who died in their pilgramages to free the Holy Land from the Muslims.

Thus, it is very, very easy to see why Christians would want to drive the Muslims from the Holy Land: they were (thought to be) destroying the most holy places on earth and if you died trying to free those places, God would escort you directly to everlasting Paradise. Shit, who wouldn't take a deal like that?

[Darth Servo]

How about Hitler's friend and ally Franco? Are you going to tell us he wasn't a Christian either despite him being about as zealous a Catholic as it's possible to be?

Catholics ain't Christian.

I believe I saw a Jack Chick tract to that effect.

No one is a Christian except Chick and his flock of cocksuckers.

[Ryan Thunder]

Why would I as a Christian ever elect Nazis?

Millions of German Christians elected the Nazis in the 1930s, you goddamned idiot. One of their first acts in power was to bring back the Christian "Lord's Prayer" in German schools.

I realize that. Well, to be perfectly honest, I didn't know about the Lord's Prayer bit, but whatever.

In any event, can you find me the bit of scripture where Jesus tells me to slaughter all the Jews? I can't.

Which is my point. I'm not saying that none of these things weren't done by people claiming to be Christ's followers. That's an unfortunate and indisputable fact.

What I am saying is that I don't see any Biblical basis for what they did. If you were to put up a political figure like Hitler for election, ignoring outside influences (that would probably deal with him before he even made it to the ballot), I would never elect such a party based on my spirituality (or anything else, for that matter...)

You fucking "Christians don't do bad things" assholes make me sick.

Who, me? Christians do plenty of terrible things every day, and I'm ashamed of them.

The Jewish laws called for Jesus to stone a criminal, and rather than punish, he forgave. Rather than observe the Sabbath and callously ignore the infirm and the injured, he healed them. That is the God I follow.

You're fucking ignorant of 99% of your own motherfucking history; you are blissfully unaware of the Christian connection to Nazism, negro slavery, or Manifest Destiny, because you don't have the goddamned intelligence or motor co-ordination to open a fucking book and read it before you spout your foul-stinking ignorant bullshit all over the Internet.

I am fully aware of the atrocities committed by my self-proclaimed Christian brothers and sisters in the past and in the present. My peers and I reject their philosophies and methods as inconsistent with the Christian faith. What would Jesus do? He damn well wouldn't order His followers to burn 'heretics' at the stake, or brick people into walls for reading His words, I promise you that.

Oni

What? I can accept that not all Christians are good people, and I do accept it. Whatever caused you to think otherwise?

All I'm saying is that whenever you do bring that sort of thing up, you bring it up as absolute fact, as though every Christian you'll ever encounter has got a dagger hidden somewhere, and if you aren't careful he'll brainwash you and turn you into some kind of hateful, bigoted zombie.

I resent that, because myself, and my peers are simply not like that. There are Christians who are good, honest, decent people. We're not all here to brainwash you, convert you at the barrel of a gun, point of a knife, or any other such inanity.

[Ryan Thunder]

Why would I as a Christian ever elect Nazis?

One way in which the Nazi party was appealing to Christians was their fanatical hatred of atheistic Marxists. Propaganda articles such as this created the impression that there were communist Jews who were set on destroying the Christian religion and the German Volk.

Which still wouldn't have justified the sort of things they did. God doesn't give me free license to start slaughtering people wholesale because they're (supposedly) atheists, even if they are (supposedly) hell-bent on my destruction.

[Darth Wong]

In any event, can you find me the bit of scripture where Jesus tells me to slaughter all the Jews? I can't.

Can you find me the bit of scripture where Jesus says that no one should ever eat donkey shit? I can't. Don't be a fucking retard; you can't prove that something is fundamentally incompatible with Christianity just by saying that it's not found in the Bible.

What I am saying is that I don't see any Biblical basis for what they did.

So? Are you saying that everything you do must have a "Biblical basis" in order for you to be a Christian?

I am fully aware of the atrocities committed by my self-proclaimed Christian brothers and sisters in the past and in the present. My peers and I reject their philosophies and methods as inconsistent with the Christian faith. What would Jesus do? He damn well wouldn't order His followers to burn 'heretics' at the stake, or brick people into walls for reading His words, I promise you that.

Bullshit. He ranted at length about how much false prophets and heretics would be tortured and made to suffer in the kingdom of God. You simply read the parts you wanted to read, and ignored the parts you didn't like. Hitler did the same thing. He's just as Christian as you.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Oni

What? I can accept that not all Christians are good people, and I do accept it. Whatever caused you to think otherwise?

The parts where you started spewing No-True-Scotsman fallacies left and right, actually.

All I'm saying is that whenever you do bring that sort of thing up, you bring it up as absolute fact, as though every Christian you'll ever encounter has got a dagger hidden somewhere, and if you aren't careful he'll brainwash you and turn you into some kind of hateful, bigoted zombie.

Yup, because we've often said that every Christian we'll ever meet will do exactly that...

...oh wait, no we haven't! We've actually said Christians in general have shown a strong tendency to do exactly that, which is well evidenced by their long history of doing just that.

In case you need it spelled out: 'Christians in general' =/= 'Every single Christian in the world'.

I resent that, because myself, and my peers are simply not like that.

And neither are my friends who happen to be Christian. Guess what? They're the exceptions to the rule, just like yours are. Now if you have anything beside personal anecdotes to falsify the mountain of evidence that Christians have had an overwhelmingly negative impact on culture, scientific advancement, and tolerance, by all means present it.

There are Christians who are good, honest, decent people. We're not all here to brainwash you, convert you at the barrel of a gun, point of a knife, or any other such inanity.

And you're in the minority.

You've successfully addressed *nothing* I've said, and gone out of your way to thrash your own crudely-made strawman. Congratulations, now get back to me when you actually have an argument.

[Rye]

In any event, can you find me the bit of scripture where Jesus tells me to slaughter all the Jews? I can't.

Luke 19:27.

Which is my point. I'm not saying that none of these things weren't done by people claiming to be Christ's followers. That's an unfortunate and indisputable fact.

What I am saying is that I don't see any Biblical basis for what they did.

There was a biblical basis, but that's neither here nor there. Christianity as an extension of the Bible is much less important than Christianity as a group of socio-cultural tribes.

The Jewish laws called for Jesus to stone a criminal, and rather than punish, he forgave. Rather than observe the Sabbath and callously ignore the infirm and the injured, he healed them. That is the God I follow.

And that god is a product of the social/cultural belief and the material situations of those within that culture. That's the fact of the matter, though unfortunately it's difficult to get people to realise that without being able to accept the notion of God potentially being purely imaginary and social.

Presumably, you also believe in the god that gave down those jewish laws and considered them good at the time. You believe in that god and then only dare follow it because you think it changed the rules it made. If you don't see how that sort of mental situation is ripe for abuse and immorality, I encourage you to think really hard on the matter.

I am fully aware of the atrocities committed by my self-proclaimed Christian brothers and sisters in the past and in the present. My peers and I reject their philosophies and methods as inconsistent with the Christian faith. What would Jesus do? He damn well wouldn't order His followers to burn 'heretics' at the stake, or brick people into walls for reading His words, I promise you that.

In other words, those people are heretics for coming to different conclusions to you, they're dangerous and a threat to your way of life. It would make sense if you were in charge to set up some sort of system to deal with them, wouldn't it? To stop bloody and violent uprisings against you and your accurate, more pure, faith, it would be logical and necessary to create an official group of people to inquire into these rival cults/interpretations and put down dissent wherever it turned up. Why would christians create an inquisition? There's your answer. Christians get hegemonic control and the privilege of that position is difficult to give up.

Jesus did order you to sell your possessions and give your money to the poor, I'm guessing since you post here you've quite rightly dismissed that teaching of Jesus as useless and retarded, if well meaning. I presume you think this makes you not a True Christian™ and those that do follow what Jesus actually said actually are True Christians™.

Also, you missed my other response.