Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

[Stuart]

One solution to the problem of humans committing suicide so they can escape Earthly problems in Hell is to simply have Hell descend into a monstrous war between various human factions once it's liberated, so that it remains an undesirable destination. That's not at all unlikely, with 90 billion humans squeezed onto a land mass only slightly larger than Earth's present land mass. And with those sheer numbers, even if we arm certain factions with modern weapons, they can't necessarily keep a lid on it. Hell, with the human lack of fatigue, super-survivability, and healing factor in Hell, human wave attacks might be fairly effective even against machine-guns.

That had occured to me; that's why a follow-up to Armageddon is becoming increasingly attractive. That would look at the post-war situation and all the problems that would have to be solved (not least of which would be coping with the post-war economic collapse on Earth.)

The personal side of things (families getting back in touch etc) will be worth following up as well. I cane asily see a family visiting one of their revered ancestors only to learn the horrible truth about what went on - I'm irresistably reminded of a story i read about a very exclusive women's club near Valley Forge where to join one had to trace ancestry to one of a number of women who had stayed with the Army then. Then a historian tracked the story back and found that the original women had all been ladies of negotiable virtue working in a cat-house.

[Stuart]

Dear John,

Our records indicate you owed $260,000 in back taxes at the time of your death. The total value of your assets and estates was $110,000 and was levied against your tax bill. As you died in 1992, you owe $381,052 in back taxes. Please make the check out to:

IRS Post-Mortem Tax Collection Division
Former Palace of Satan
City of Dis, 666

If unable to pay, you will be sent to THE MINES OF TARTARUS.

Sincerely,

The IRS

That's too good not to include. Of course, in this case, IRS would mean Infernal Revenue Service but then I think it does anyway. Certainly envelopes addressed to the Infernal Revenue Service reach their destination.

[Darth Wong]

Dear John,

Our records indicate you owed $260,000 in back taxes at the time of your death. The total value of your assets and estates was $110,000 and was levied against your tax bill. As you died in 1992, you owe $381,052 in back taxes. Please make the check out to:

IRS Post-Mortem Tax Collection Division
Former Palace of Satan
City of Dis, 666

If unable to pay, you will be sent to THE MINES OF TARTARUS.

Sincerely,

The IRS

That's too good not to include. Of course, in this case, IRS would mean Infernal Revenue Service but then I think it does anyway. Certainly envelopes addressed to the Infernal Revenue Service reach their destination.

It actually makes sense; certain wealthy Earth countries could use their resources to maintain heavily fortified strongholds in Hell where people can live in relative safety despite the wars raging elsewhere, supplied with modern technology from here on Earth. But in return, those strongholds would have to compensate us, and we would expect things such as natural resources, fossil fuels if Hell has any, etc. Since they can't fabricate high-tech items in Hell, they have to make do with low-tech solutions, such as armies of labourers. Unless we send them heavy equipment, which we would also expect payment for, and which they would be unable to maintain themselves.

The economy of Hell would end up looking very much like the economy of the Middle East today: completely dependent upon producing and selling natural resources to a higher-tech first-world society. Although certain other functions could also be outsourced there, such as telephone tech support.

On another side-note, murder cases would become almost trivially easy to solve now. Just have a psychic contact the murder victim in Hell and ask who did it.

PSYCHIC: Was it O.J.?
NICOLE: Of course it was O.J.! Who the fuck else would it be? Don't tell me you didn't nail him!

[Darth Wong]

More ruminations: portal capability could be hypothetically be used to virtually wipe out the cargo shipping business. If you could open large permanent portals, they could replace the function of shipping ports and airports today, and with far superior speed. You could literally run track right through a portal in Dubai to a transfer area in Hell, and from there to a portal in Los Angeles. I could foresee the construction of huge transfer stations in Hell, provided a security solution can be found. The fortifications would have to be spectacular, but think of the economic benefits.

Federal Express Same-Day Global Service: We will go through Hell to deliver your package on time!

PS. With enough branch-office psychics, they could even do point-to-point hand deliveries by opening temporary portals. Of course, this begs the question of what harm can be done with this ability, so I would expect the government to enact an absurdly harsh regime of monitoring and regulations on people with this ability. Mind you, if the supply of such people is small enough, they might just end up all working for the government, and become a precious resource that is crucial to national security. They could still be used for opening large permanent or semi-permanent portals as envisioned above, as that would be national infrastructure, but you wouldn't have branch office psychics delivering packages. Alternatively, if they can work up a way of monitoring portal activity, the danger level of this activity might be reduced, and it might become relatively commonplace, and without such harsh monitoring required.

[That NOS Guy]

Federal Express Same-Day Global Service: We will go through Hell to deliver your package on time!

Now you're thinking with portals Mike.

[Eulogy]

Dear John,

Our records indicate you owed $260,000 in back taxes at the time of your death. The total value of your assets and estates was $110,000 and was levied against your tax bill. As you died in 1992, you owe $381,052 in back taxes. Please make the check out to:

IRS Post-Mortem Tax Collection Division
Former Palace of Satan
City of Dis, 666

If unable to pay, you will be sent to THE MINES OF TARTARUS.

Sincerely,

The IRS

That's too good not to include. Of course, in this case, IRS would mean Infernal Revenue Service but then I think it does anyway. Certainly envelopes addressed to the Infernal Revenue Service reach their destination.

It actually makes sense; certain wealthy Earth countries could use their resources to maintain heavily fortified strongholds in Hell where people can live in relative safety despite the wars raging elsewhere, supplied with modern technology from here on Earth. But in return, those strongholds would have to compensate us, and we would expect things such as natural resources, fossil fuels if Hell has any, etc. Since they can't fabricate high-tech items in Hell, they have to make do with low-tech solutions, such as armies of labourers. Unless we send them heavy equipment, which we would also expect payment for, and which they would be unable to maintain themselves.

The economy of Hell would end up looking very much like the economy of the Middle East today: completely dependent upon producing and selling natural resources to a higher-tech first-world society. Although certain other functions could also be outsourced there, such as telephone tech support.

On another side-note, murder cases would become almost trivially easy to solve now. Just have a psychic contact the murder victim in Hell and ask who did it.

PSYCHIC: Was it O.J.?
NICOLE: Of course it was O.J.! Who the fuck else would it be? Don't tell me you didn't nail him!

I can easily see Hades becoming a different type of Hell after the war is over. After all, poor John in this case has no way to pay the taxes, and after he went through he REALLY doesn't want to have to mine for what is presumably forever. In which case I can easily see him running away and joining one of the many factions that will sprout up in Hades, or simply going into hiding.

"Fuck you, IRS. I ain't going to be tortured by somebody else! Nuh-uh!"

The earlier the person died, the worse the taxes would be. I'd hate for somebody from 1765 to see what amount of back-taxes he owes; expect billions of people to simply tell the IRS to go fuck itself and run away or hide.

This scenario of course presumes that the dead remain permanently bound to Hell - if a way was found to let the dead return to Earth, then there wouldn't be quite the rush for manual labourers. It also presumes that the environment of Hell remains as it is for a long, long time; if Hell was terraformed then the idea of products of high technology being produced there won't be so far-fetched.

[Darth Wong]

I can easily see Hades becoming a different type of Hell after the war is over. After all, poor John in this case has no way to pay the taxes, and after he went through he REALLY doesn't want to have to mine for what is presumably forever. In which case I can easily see him running away and joining one of the many factions that will sprout up in Hades, or simply going into hiding.

"Fuck you, IRS. I ain't going to be tortured by somebody else! Nuh-uh!"

I don't think you've been following this train of thought too well. If, as postulated, Hell descends into a horrific and near-constant state of civil war, the only tolerable places in it will be the heavily fortified "civilized" areas. Saying that you'll just run away from them and hide in the lawless areas would be silly. I'd rather work manual labour than get tortured.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I don't think the constant warfare is sustainable in the long term. I'm not necessarily thinking it will become a single, unified government, but over time various power-bases will stabilize and national boundries will form. I guess it really depends on whether or not other large-scale portals can be opened.

If the Mideast portal remains the only one big enough to drive a train through, that makes the landscape very different than a world where there are portals in England, Russia, India, China, etc.

[Stuart Mackey]

Also, people in Hell are there for many many years. Have they not lost, um, combat experience? Really, do they just have the memories and skills at death time permanently conserved?

That's the problem, we don't know what we would get. What I was saying about Wellington is a case in point, as an old man he was not that great in office and the army suffered for it..but in his heyday in Spain he was very good, when he is rescued what are we getting?. Also, as I said earlier, the question is 'command what?' 10 million Russians, fine, with no logistics and supplied from what logistics/economic base base?.

[Stuart Mackey]

You forgot Wilson.

He was about as popular with the rest of the army as a fart in a spacesuit; unless you mean Jumbo Wilson?

WW1 Wilson; he was also the man who made the BEF of 1914 possible and he was unpopular because he made the command look like the ineffective lot they were, because he made things happen, and provided a viable fighting force when Britain needed one. No one like to be shown up, especially those of flag rank.

[JN1]

Once Hell is conquered and safe dead people can in theory live and work there quite happily, thus earning money and therefore be taxed. Oh the HMRC and IRS are going to have a lot of fun.
We could even staff their Hades divisions with daemons.

[Darth Wong]

I don't think the constant warfare is sustainable in the long term. I'm not necessarily thinking it will become a single, unified government, but over time various power-bases will stabilize and national boundries will form. I guess it really depends on whether or not other large-scale portals can be opened.

The history of our planet is replete with constant warfare; why should humans behave any differently in Hell? It's actually easier to sustain constant warfare in Hell, since the logistical requirements of warfare are greatly reduced.

And what about all of the people who were killed in war, or saw their families butchered here on Earth? They're just going to let bygones be bygones now that they're in Hell? It's like the ultimate grudge match, once old factions re-form.

Can you imagine a Muslim who watched his wife and children tortured and beheaded in ancient Jerusalem by the Crusaders, being released and deciding to live and work happily beside former Christians? "Oops, my bad" doesn't quite cover it. Or how about all of the American Southerners who will be flying Confederate flags? Don't you think there will be some black people with scores to settle?

[Stuart Mackey]

Once Hell is conquered and safe dead people can in theory live and work there quite happily, thus earning money and therefore be taxed. Oh the HMRC and IRS are going to have a lot of fun.

How can you be taxed if you have not been earning money in your country of origin, and are in fact in another 'legal' jurisdiction with no taxation agreements with your nation of origin and have not being earning money in the new 'nation' of residence?

We could even staff their Hades divisions with daemons.

Like the earth bound versions are not?

[Stuart Mackey]

Nobody would take a commander from a century ago (and that pretty much includes the First World War) and place them in command of modern troops. The whole how-and-why of how a modern army works is simply beyond their comprehension. snip

But they have an eternity to learn, and one would assume that they are not stupid people to begin with. But yes, the oldies, they wont get a command and rightly so.

[JN1]

How can you be taxed if you have not been earning money in your country of origin, and are in fact in another 'legal' jurisdiction with no taxation agreements with your nation of origin and have not being earning money in the new 'nation' of residence?

I was presuming that once Hades is pacified then the Hades Revenue and Customs Service/Infernal Revenue Service would set up shop in Hades to tax its 'residents.

Like the earth bound versions are not?

Hence my suggestion.
I have worked with an ex-taxman in the recent past and he was quite normal (he did Geri Halliwell's tax return once), definitely no horns or tail.

[Darth Wong]

Nobody would take a commander from a century ago (and that pretty much includes the First World War) and place them in command of modern troops. The whole how-and-why of how a modern army works is simply beyond their comprehension. snip

But they have an eternity to learn, and one would assume that they are not stupid people to begin with. But yes, the oldies, they wont get a command and rightly so.

I actually suspect it might be nigh-impossible for people in Hell to break old habits of thought. If Hell actually prevents insanity somehow, despite millennia of torture, it must somehow preserve the mental patterns that you arrived with. You can probably learn to some extent, but I'm guessing it's extremely difficult to break old patterns of thought.

Mind you, if someone was very inquisitive and adaptive in life, the possibility remains that he might still be that way in Hell. But if someone was an uncreative "by the book" person, I wouldn't hold out high hopes for him learning anything in Hell.

[Cecelia5578]

I'm not sure I get the boards fascination with back taxes, dead humans in hell retaining military rank, etc. How can dead people owe taxes when they haven't been receiving an income? Besides, its not as if the Earth needs billions of newcomers, even if they could survive the transition from Hell to Earth.

RE: Julius Caesar-why would the Italian Republic, which is in no way the heir of the (defunct) Roman Empire (Eastern or Western) owe Julius Caesar anything? What about all the other dead emperors in hell? Old JC could just as well go to Istanbul or Moscow and ask for his job back.

And as far as George Washington, and generals with insane amounts of stars-ugh. Inflated military ranks are for shithole countries.

[Surlethe]

I'm not sure I get the boards fascination with back taxes, dead humans in hell retaining military rank, etc. How can dead people owe taxes when they haven't been receiving an income? Besides, its not as if the Earth needs billions of newcomers, even if they could survive the transition from Hell to Earth.

RE: Julius Caesar-why would the Italian Republic, which is in no way the heir of the (defunct) Roman Empire (Eastern or Western) owe Julius Caesar anything? What about all the other dead emperors in hell? Old JC could just as well go to Istanbul or Moscow and ask for his job back.

I doubt they'll be getting any jobs back. More likely, they'll be plotting and networking to advance their power bases in Hell proper.

[Stuart Mackey]

Like the earth bound versions are not?

Hence my suggestion.
I have worked with an ex-taxman in the recent past and he was quite normal (he did Geri Halliwell's tax return once), definitely no horns or tail.

You were not wearing your tinfoil hat were you?

[Stuart Mackey]

Nobody would take a commander from a century ago (and that pretty much includes the First World War) and place them in command of modern troops. The whole how-and-why of how a modern army works is simply beyond their comprehension. snip

But they have an eternity to learn, and one would assume that they are not stupid people to begin with. But yes, the oldies, they wont get a command and rightly so.

I actually suspect it might be nigh-impossible for people in Hell to break old habits of thought. If Hell actually prevents insanity somehow, despite millennia of torture, it must somehow preserve the mental patterns that you arrived with. You can probably learn to some extent, but I'm guessing it's extremely difficult to break old patterns of thought.

Well, we know that hell probably prevents insanity, but little else.

Mind you, if someone was very inquisitive and adaptive in life, the possibility remains that he might still be that way in Hell. But if someone was an uncreative "by the book" person, I wouldn't hold out high hopes for him learning anything in Hell.

I am not sure we have had any chance to find out one way or another, but time will tell on that.

[JN1]

I'm not sure I get the boards fascination with back taxes, dead humans in hell retaining military rank, etc. How can dead people owe taxes when they haven't been receiving an income?

I was thinking of future taxes myself rather than back ones, but the back tax issue was a bit of a joke as far as I can see. You shouldn't take it seriously.

You were not wearing your tinfoil hat were you?

I always wear it.

[Stuart Mackey]

I always wear it.

He was in league with Satan, obviously, sold his soul. One thing is certain, the Cosa Nostra is but a pale shadow of any ones tax man.

[JN1]

I always wear it.

He was in league with Satan, obviously, sold his soul. One thing is certain, the Cosa Nostra is but a pale shadow of any ones tax man.

Nah, I think he just wanted a job to help pay off the student loan.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Can you imagine a Muslim who watched his wife and children tortured and beheaded in ancient Jerusalem by the Crusaders, being released and deciding to live and work happily beside former Christians? "Oops, my bad" doesn't quite cover it. Or how about all of the American Southerners who will be flying Confederate flags? Don't you think there will be some black people with scores to settle?

When you put it that way, it sounds like a political and diplomatic nightmare.

[Firethorn]

I can see a life-death system being maintained. Death being a sort of 'ultimate fresh start'. Earth is for the living, Hades for the dead.

Soldiers working after death don't work towards a pension, though leave benefits and time off should be correspondingly more generous. So the dead soldiers who are actively working are getting paid for their current service, not their past service.

This, ultimately, provides the start of an economy hades side. They use their money to start businesses hades side, import equipment, etc... If not directly, when they use said money to buy services from other residents of hades, who then use it to buy said supplies from earth.

While advanced businesses start popping up, use the vast resources of the dead to provide labor so cheap as to make China look expensive. Want a highway in hades? A million men with shovels and pickaxes isn't out of the question, for an equivalent of 2 cents a day per worker. Pottery, metalwork, etc...

When they go home, they spend time building their new homes. Go quality. It might be more than a hundred years before it gets electricity, but most of the dead never had that. They save up their 2 cents a day($6.25/year), and invest or buy earth side luxuries.

As for the aged veterans - you don't have to restore them to youth, but if you subtract things like fragile bones, Alzheimer's, failing organs and such, they'll be a credible threat with firearms against demons.