SUVs plunge toward 'endangered' list

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SUVs plunge toward 'endangered' list

Post by fgalkin »

LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- Jorge Fernandez strolls across the used-car parking lot littered with dozens upon dozens of sport utility vehicles the size of small tugboats.

With gas at $4 a gallon, many have sat there since last summer.

"The cars are literally just sitting, and it doesn't matter how much you sell them for," Fernandez says of the SUVs and trucks nobody wants anymore.

"It's amazing. I've never seen it this bad -- ever."

Fernandez, a wholesale auto dealer who has been in the business for more than 20 years, says SUV owners are hit especially hard. The really large ones with V-8 engines that can get as little as 12 miles per gallon in the city -- like the Cadillac Escalade, Ford Expedition and Chevy Suburban -- are dropping in value by the thousands. Video Watch the sinking value of guzzlers »

The No. 1 reason for the sales slump is soaring gas prices, says Peter Brown, the executive director of Automotive News, the trade newspaper for the North American car industry.

For the first four months of this year, truck and SUV sales are down a collective 24.8 percent. SUV sales plummeted 32.8 percent while pickups dipped 19.9 percent, he says.

"If gas prices stay where they are at or continue to rise, the body-on frame SUV is an endangered species and the pickup truck as a personal car is an endangered species," Brown says.

How do owners react when they're told their once-$40,000-plus vehicles are now worth less than half that?

"When they find out what you think their truck is worth, they think you're trying to rip them off or something," says Fernandez. "Small cars are gone within a week; SUVs are sitting here since last summer."

David Lavi, the owner of a Toyota Tacoma pickup, is feeling that pinch. He put his truck on the market several weeks ago in hopes of downsizing. He bought it brand new in 2006 when gas prices were much lower.

"Once I do sell it, I'm going to get a smaller car -- maybe a Nissan Maxima or something smaller," he says.

He's hoping to get $23,000 for the fully loaded truck, which is higher than the estimated Kelley Blue Book value of $15,000 to $19,000 depending on how many amenities it has.

"No one has offered what I want," he says.

Automakers have noticed this trend to downsize.

Ford announced Thursday it was shifting production away from its longtime hallmark of pickups and SUVs in favor of smaller cars.

In making the decision, Ford said it believes gas prices will remain in the range of $3.75 to $4.25 a gallon through the end of 2009.

"We saw a real change in the industry demand in pickups and SUVs in the first two weeks of May," Ford chief executive Alan Mulally said Thursday. "It seems to us we reached a tipping point."

Brown of Automotive News said he wouldn't be surprised if General Motors and other automakers follow suit.

According to AAA, gas prices reached another all-time high Friday, with the national average price for a gallon of regular unleaded gasoline at $3.87. Seven states are now over $4 a gallon, AAA says. How much do you need to work to pay for your gas? »

Stories of owners ditching larger vehicles for smaller ones have started to become widespread. Owners say they're tired of spending as much as 80 to 100 bucks to fill up their tanks.

Some CNN.com users recently shared their stories of buying used Geo Metros -- the oft-maligned, snail-sized car from the 1990s that gets gas mileage similar to a hybrid of today for a fraction of the sticker price.

"I used to be a car snob, and I used to be too vain to drive anything that doesn't shine," said Marci Solomon, an electrician who has a 100-mile commute to and from work. "But now it's about, do I want to eat, or do I want to make it to work? I want to do both."

But some auto experts caution owners against trading in their SUVs and trucks to save money at the pump because it may not be the wisest financial decision.

Owners might owe $20,000 or more when the vehicle is now worth $12,000. It's similar to an upside-down mortgage, and it may not make sense to try a trade-in.

"What they might be doing is spending thousands of dollars to save hundreds," says Jack Nerad, the executive director of Kelley Blue Book's kbb.com.

"Because if you make a trade, you're most often going to spend more to make that move than you would just sucking it up and paying the extra gasoline prices."

Back at the Los Angeles lot, Fernandez says he thinks the trend away from SUVs and pickups is here to stay.

"Just when you think that it's going to change any day now, it doesn't. It just continuously gets worse," he said.
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I, for one, will cheer the demise of the SUV. It seems like people are finally waking up to what's coming.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

now will they take care of RVs please?

as someone who lives in Yosemite and drives a european auto, that gets decent gas milage, and thanks to some mods, effeicently uses all the fuel it burns (multi-spark, fuel injection and turbo charging on a 4 cylander engine) being surrounded by H2s and other monstrosities isn't as bad as the one thing everyone here in the park dreads. RV4Rent
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Post by Broomstick »

There are some people who need trucks/SUV's - soccer moms going to the mall are not among them. I expect the farmers and tradesmen around here will keep their big vehicles because they actually need them, but I for one am happy to share the road with cars rather than behemoths.

The whole bit about "Don't sell if you owe more than the vehicle is worth" - hey, some people made a poor purchasing decision and they're just going to lose money. Sometimes you're better off taking the hit and moving on - in other words, buy a smaller vehicle that costs less to operate, because going forward that "upside-down" car loan will only get worse.

We're keeping our pickup because it's paid for, and for a truck it gets good mileage (23 mpg), but we sure are driving it a lot less. Having a second vehicle is handy, especially one that can carry a load, but I suspect I will not own one again after this one is gone.
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Post by FireNexus »

Potassium Permanganate in the gas tank should solve the SUV owners problems, assuming they had the sense to get GAP insurance. :twisted:
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Post by chitoryu12 »

Times like this makes me glad I have a little 4-door Saturn.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

To further explain the reason why keeping the SUV doesn't make sense I now present lots of math.

Lets say you bought a new SUV for abut 30,000 in 2006. You probably paid about 2,000 down (and/or used cashback payments for the down payment) so you owe 28,000 in principal likely over a 6 year loan. Lets take abou a 2.9% intrest rate and assume you actually got one of the decent financing deals but not the great deals. You now have a monthly payment of about $425.

Lets, for sake of being iconographic, make this a Jeep Grand Cherokee so you get between 17 (city) and 21 (highway) MPG. Lets be generous and average it out to 20mpg. Average US vehicles go around 11,500 mi per year. At 20 mpg that nets you 575 gallons of fuel. At $4/gal that means an annual fuel cost of $2,300. Add in the $475 per month and we have a total basic cost of operation (no repairs oil changes etc) of $8000

Now lets jump forward to 2008 and you want to sell your vehicle, average-rough trade in for the 23000 miles you have driven is between 13,750 and 17,600 so lets go a little low and say 15,000 on trade in. At the end of 2 years you should have $19,200 left on your loan. This means you now have $4200 to pay off over the remaining 4 years which works out to right about $95 per month.

Now lets add on your new fuel efficient car. Since they are ubiquitous lets go with a Toyota Camry and get the middle of the road model at around $21,000. lets say we go with $1000 from down payment/rebate money for a loan value of $20,000 over, again, 6 years. Lets assume you still have decent credit and can qualify for that 2.9% rate. You are now looking at about $305 per month.

You still drive the average 11,500 miles only now you get between 21 and 31 mpg so again being generous lets go with 27 mpg as your average economy. This means 426 gallons of gas, at $4/gal this comes to $1704. Combine that with the 305 and 95/month and you get $6504 annual cost of operation.

Simply put EVEN if you have to keep paying off a portion of your loan you do about $1500/year better by going more fuel efficient and smaller car. Now obviously the numbers change the less value you get on the trade-in (and thus the more expensive holdig on to the loan is) and the more expensive the new car you buy is BUT it take quite a bit to shift that difference that much.
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Post by Coyote »

I find SUVs to be incredibly handy vehicles, myself. I don't get the big Monster Truck versions, but the smaller versions (Nissan Pathfinder, Isuzu Rodeo). If there were more modest-sized SUVs with diesel-electric drives (or some other improvement) it'd be much better. I think the SUV has become the whipping boy for what really is decades of cumulative environmental abuse that was well in place loooooonnng before anyone ever slapped a fully-enclosed truck shell body on a pickup chassis and called it "good".
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Post by Rightous Fist Of Heaven »

How utterly unsurprising. What I'm finding myself thinking is that how the hell I can still see so goddamn many huge GMC Pickups etc. on Finnish roads even when those things can cost as much as 30 €/100km to drive. Some of my friends called me insane when I bought a -98 Mitsubishi Legnum 2.5 V6 TwinTurbo a month back, at least it does 21-23 mpg average.
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Post by Mr Bean »

First to Edi, I think this can stay since the old one was about what small cars people are shifting to with a mention of how bad it is for the big stuff, we spent that topic talking about small cars, this one is about the big boys and much it it sucks to already own one. (Besides it's got enough posts already to leave it open)
Moron wrote: He's hoping to get $23,000 for the fully loaded truck, which is higher than the estimated Kelley Blue Book value of $15,000 to $19,000 depending on how many amenities it has.

"No one has offered what I want," he says.
This is from the OP, read that again, it's blue book is 19,000 at most and he wants an extra 4,000 above what a new one is worth....
Yeah... hah... even if Gas prices were lower somehow I think you'd have an issue with that buddy.

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Re: SUVs plunge toward 'endangered' list

Post by CJvR »

fgalkin wrote:I, for one, will cheer the demise of the SUV. It seems like people are finally waking up to what's coming.
Im contemplating getting one. It is soon the only way to get around all the speedbumps with you suspension intact and without getting your internal organs rearranged when you drive through town.
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Post by SCRawl »

Mr Bean wrote:First to Edi, I think this can stay since the old one was about what small cars people are shifting to with a mention of how bad it is for the big stuff, we spent that topic talking about small cars, this one is about the big boys and much it it sucks to already own one. (Besides it's got enough posts already to leave it open)
Moron wrote: He's hoping to get $23,000 for the fully loaded truck, which is higher than the estimated Kelley Blue Book value of $15,000 to $19,000 depending on how many amenities it has.

"No one has offered what I want," he says.
This is from the OP, read that again, it's blue book is 19,000 at most and he wants an extra 4,000 above what a new one is worth....
Yeah... hah... even if Gas prices were lower somehow I think you'd have an issue with that buddy.
Perhaps I've misunderstood what you're trying to say, but the truck in your quote is a 2006, and the blue book value would be for a 2006 as well. It says that it was fully loaded, so I suspect that it went for around $30k when it was new. Either that or, yeah, the guy is really a moron.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

I think he said that it went for over 30k when he bought it two years ago, with full bling. now he's trying to sell it for 2/3ds of what he bought it for, and the blue book is closer to half of what he bought it for.
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Post by Starglider »

Insurance costs probably factor in as well, moreso if you're under 30. Certainly here cars with V8 petrols are massively more expensive to insure (probably above $3000/year for me) than little straight-4s (well below $500 for me).

On the subject of insurance, I investigated LPG recently, but the thing that killed that idea was insurance costs. LPG gets only slightly less MPG than gasoline and is literally half the price here, so the $2000-3000 conversion price is easily worth it. Unfortunately though every insurance site I tried was trying to charge me three times as much for an LPG-converted petrol car as for a diesel of the same model and engine size, a cost which easily overwhelmed the potential cost savings. Idiot insurance companies can't seem to tell the difference between a fuel-economy measure fitted by a probably very responsible driver and a max-power chip fitted by a boy racer, they're both seemingly lumped under 'engine modifications' for acturial purposes.
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Post by Starglider »

SCRawl wrote:Perhaps I've misunderstood what you're trying to say, but the truck in your quote is a 2006, and the blue book value would be for a 2006 as well. It says that it was fully loaded, so I suspect that it went for around $30k when it was new. Either that or, yeah, the guy is really a moron.
He's definitely a moron. Even the 'blue book' value is bullshit. That's basically the average of all the advertised prices. However the market for even moderately big-engined cars is completely stagnant - something I can personally confirm because I've been watching Ebay.co.uk, Autotrader etc for the last few months. Most ads close unsold and most auctions are ending below reserve or with no bids. The actual average selling price seems to be about 80-90% of the 'blue book' value, and having tinted windows and factory sat nav doesn't make anything like the difference it did when the car was new.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Starglider wrote:Idiot insurance companies can't seem to tell the difference between a fuel-economy measure fitted by a probably very responsible driver and a max-power chip fitted by a boy racer, they're both seemingly lumped under 'engine modifications' for acturial purposes.
I guess you don’t realize how much of an increased explosion risk a LPG powered car is, especially if you do your own conversion and thus just have a couple LPG bottles bolted in the back. Even factory built LPG cars are a fair bit more likely to burn and especially too explode then gasoline powered vehicles, insurance companies have very right and reason to demand higher premiums for them.
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Post by Starglider »

Sea Skimmer wrote:I guess you don’t realize how much of an increased explosion risk a LPG powered car is, especially if you do your own conversion and thus just have a couple LPG bottles bolted in the back.
Doing your own conversion is pretty much impractical in the UK. If you don't have an installation certificate from a government-approved installer, you don't get the congestion charge exemption, you can't travel on ferries, and I'm not sure you'd even pass an MOT test. There used to be a fair number of cowboy operators (probably still are a few preying on the clueless) but a conversion by a decent reputable shop will be as good as a factory fit.
Even factory built LPG cars are a fair bit more likely to burn and especially too explode then gasoline powered vehicles, insurance companies have very right and reason to demand higher premiums for them.
I specifically searched for that and I saw plenty of people claiming that on forum posts but no reliable studies or statistics. Do you have a link to any?
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Post by tim31 »

The Australian Federal Government was, and as far as I know(budget's just been) offering a decent rebate on LPG conversions, which is sensible when you consider the vast gas resources we have at hand.
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Re: SUVs plunge toward 'endangered' list

Post by Spyder »

CJvR wrote:
fgalkin wrote:I, for one, will cheer the demise of the SUV. It seems like people are finally waking up to what's coming.
Im contemplating getting one. It is soon the only way to get around all the speedbumps with you suspension intact and without getting your internal organs rearranged when you drive through town.
You know that other pedal down there next to the gas? (No not the clutch, the other one.) Use that before going over a speed bump, makes the whole ride that much more enjoyable.
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Post by Crayz9000 »

Starglider wrote:I specifically searched for that and I saw plenty of people claiming that on forum posts but no reliable studies or statistics. Do you have a link to any?
I *still* have yet to see anything but FUD regarding LPG in vehicles. If anyone has a published study/document on the dangers of LPG from a reputable authority (fire department, UL, etc) I'd love to see it.

Fact is, what I do know is that LPG tanks themselves are put through an astonishing battery of tests before the design is approved. The most dangerous part of an LPG tank is the valves, much like any high pressure gas tank; hence why they have welded brackets covering the valves. LPG tanks have been dropped off cliffs before and still held pressure afterwards.

My father actually witnessed an LPG tank fall off the back of a utility truck and roll down a rather steep street. (Think San Francisco when I saw steep, it's almost that bad here). It finally came to a stop at the bottom without any issues.
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Post by chitoryu12 »

I'm already seeing changes out on the highway. Last year I would see up to a dozen Hummers a week. Now it's rare to see two.

Of course, the local parents are still functionally retarded. Practically every kid who's just gotten a new car for their 16th birthday has an SUV or truck. Apparently, the parents think it's better for their kids so they're protected in an accident.

Just buy them an older Lincoln Town Car. Our 1989 was practically indestructible.
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Post by Kronos »

Rising fuel prices are also nice in that you don't have so many damn boats on the river during weekends. Now if only this would get rid of Ski-Doos.
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Post by Starglider »

Oh, forgot to mention, in the UK Labour is about to hike the road tax from ~$400/year to >$800/year (USD equiv) for essentially anything with a V6 or a V8. This and the $8.40/US gallon petrol (roughly 50% of which is tax) is a major reason why I didn't end up buy an Audi Allroad last week. Though to be honest, with fuel prices trending inevitably upwards anyway, it probably wouldn't be a sensible choice even if we had US style fuel/car pricing.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Crayz9000 wrote:
Starglider wrote:I specifically searched for that and I saw plenty of people claiming that on forum posts but no reliable studies or statistics. Do you have a link to any?
I *still* have yet to see anything but FUD regarding LPG in vehicles. If anyone has a published study/document on the dangers of LPG from a reputable authority (fire department, UL, etc) I'd love to see it.

Fact is, what I do know is that LPG tanks themselves are put through an astonishing battery of tests before the design is approved. The most dangerous part of an LPG tank is the valves, much like any high pressure gas tank; hence why they have welded brackets covering the valves. LPG tanks have been dropped off cliffs before and still held pressure afterwards.

My father actually witnessed an LPG tank fall off the back of a utility truck and roll down a rather steep street. (Think San Francisco when I saw steep, it's almost that bad here). It finally came to a stop at the bottom without any issues.
The impact of falling off the back of a truck is nothing compared to the forces involved when you get rear-ended by another vehicle. Propane-fueled vehicles occasionally burst into flames here in Toronto when they get rear-ended. I got held up in a traffic jam caused by one such fire once. I saw the burned-out husk myself.

Mind you, the same thing can happen to gasoline-powered cars; the problem is that the fire will be more violent with a propane tank. But honestly, saying that propane tanks can't rupture because they're "put through a battery of tests" is ridiculous. The logic doesn't track at all, and it would cost a lot of money to make propane tanks so tough that they could withstand being rammed by cars without springing a leak.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

well you mention hydrogen around some dumbfucks they bring up Hindenburg. So, your car can handle detonation of a small fuel air bomb, thousands of times a minute.
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