UNSC versus Nazi Germany (not what you think)

[Peptuck]

IIRC, they didn't outright say that the Spartans were made specifically to utilize the armor. I could be wrong (I'll need to dig up my copy of FoR to see) but I always figured that the SPARTAN-II project and MJOLNIR were seperate design projects that the UNSC looked at and realized were compatable, and then rolled them together. Makes more sense that way.

The only other explanation is that they had the technology for MJOLNIR for nearly a decade and were sitting on it the whole time while waiting for the Spartans to finish training, and that makes no sense at all.

[Zixinus]

What were the very big and stupid examples of the Nazi development?

[darthbob88]

What were the very big and stupid examples of the Nazi development?

[url]http://www.somethingawful.co*/d/news/my-tank-has-3.php[/url] But the really impressive device has to be the Ratte.

[PeZook]

What were the very big and stupid examples of the Nazi development?

[url=http://www.somethingawful.co*/d/news/my-tank-has-3.php]For a start.[/url] But the really impressive device has to be the Ratte.

Actually, I find the Maus better, because they actually built one.

And, predictably, it was a barely mobile threaded bunker.

[bz249]

[url=http://www.somethingawful.co*/d/news/my-tank-has-3.php]For a start.[/url] But the really impressive device has to be the Ratte.

Again the Rat was never supposed to be a real weapon, it was papermonster that (remotely) look like something with a military use. Thus the researchers could say they are doing a fuckingly important job, so it is better to employ them as military designers rather than grunts... this was the purpose of all those crazy developments. Anyway most of them cost little to no money (as they are only paperdrawn or scaled down models) even something like the unfamed V3 was a drop in the ocean.

[Gerald Tarrant]

The whole problem with the "plasma weapons" situation is.....the Covenant don't use plasma weapons, according to Word of God from Bungie's own Frankie.

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive25.pl?read=743326

The good news is that the use of the word "Plasma" is a semantic employed by 26th century troops to describe the appearance of the weapons rather than their true scientific attribution. The actual technology is not plasma as we know it, but something far more dangerous, arcane and destructive.

lol retcons. Apparently Bungie realized Nylund was probably talking out of his ass in First Strike.

I guess this only works if Cortana's actions in First Strike are non-canon. That removes the good HALO novels from the continuity. Doesn't Fall of Reach also contain incidents of "guided plasma? Now (even more) I wish I could get that time back. Why, oh why, couldn't Nylund have just used LASERs. Oh well, I guess I know nothing about Halo canon anymore.

[Peptuck]

The whole problem with the "plasma weapons" situation is.....the Covenant don't use plasma weapons, according to Word of God from Bungie's own Frankie.

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive25.pl?read=743326

The good news is that the use of the word "Plasma" is a semantic employed by 26th century troops to describe the appearance of the weapons rather than their true scientific attribution. The actual technology is not plasma as we know it, but something far more dangerous, arcane and destructive.

lol retcons. Apparently Bungie realized Nylund was probably talking out of his ass in First Strike.

I guess this only works if Cortana's actions in First Strike are non-canon. That removes the good HALO novels from the continuity. Doesn't Fall of Reach also contain incidents of "guided plasma? Now (even more) I wish I could get that time back. Why, oh why, couldn't Nylund have just used LASERs. Oh well, I guess I know nothing about Halo canon anymore.

Yeah, its somewhat annoying. Maybe Cotana was just thinking of things in terms that she understood or something, but that's a flimsy excuse. The ship-based weapons behave exactly like plasma,a s far as I can tell.

Ah, well. When things like this happen, I try to repeat the MST3K Mantra and live with it.

[Darth Ruinus]

Wait, are you guys sure that the Legendary diffuculty is canon and the books arent? Because that seems rather idiotic to me.

[Gerald Tarrant]

The Bungie folks have a "HALO story bible", they also supposedly had a policy of signing off on everything that happened in their "Universe"

What is Halo: The Fall of Reach? Halo: The Fall of Reach is the official tie-in novel to Halo, written by Eric Nylund with the Bungie team's assistance. It is a prequel to the game, exploring the origins of the game's major characters, the war with the Covenant, and the events leading up to the discovery of Halo by the Pillar of Autumn. It contains a great deal of story-related information and explains a good deal of the passing references in the game, as well as fleshing out the Halo universe and in the opinion of yours truly is some rather good military science fiction.


What is the Halo Story Bible? The existence of a Halo Story Bible was revealed during discussion surrounding Halo: The Fall of Reach. It is Bungie's compendium of all things Halo, the canonical guide to the universe. However, Bungie has stated that they will not release this bible to anyone unofficial (not even to writers of fan fiction).

Link Prior to Frankie's statement I would have said the books were canon too, since Bungie signed off on them. I think Frankie/Bungie just recently discovered some of the bad connotations of using "Plasma" so the statement probably indicates a retcon of everything else.

[Noble Ire]

I thought the Spartan-II's were designed as a counter-insurgency force, unless things have been ret-conned.

I had forgotten about the origins of the project, forgive me. Nevertheless, the initial conception of SPARTAN-IIs as units to be used to quell outer-colonial uprisings was quite similar to their final implementation against the Covenant; although they were intended to perform a counter-insurgency role, it was not one of a peacekeeper or foot soldier. Rather, they were used as infiltrators and assassins, just as they would be against the Covenant later on.


As to the points that have been raised about the UNSC's failure to expand the MJOLNIR program to encompass the entire Marine Corps, there are signs that there were attempts to do just that. The SPARTAN-III program, which produced hundreds of combat-ready soldiers before its base on ONYX was destroyed, employed more efficient augmentation procedures and lower-grade powered armor. Its graduates successfully expanded upon the SPARTAN-IIs role as spec ops soldiers, accomplishing large-scale actions that the tiny number of second-generation SPARTANs could not (admittedly with an incredible casuality rate due to the increasingly desperate nature of the war). Had the effort gotten off the ground earlier in the conflict, its likely it would have been expanded even further; politics in the UNSC command structure seems to have slowed the growth of both SPARTAN programs (as alluded to in the Fall of Reach). As things were, the UNSC seemed more focused on churning out battleships and evacuating compromised wolds earlier on, which may have been a superior allocation of resources in any event (the exceptional circumstances of the last months of the war aside).

[Peptuck]

The Bungie folks have a "HALO story bible", they also supposedly had a policy of signing off on everything that happened in their "Universe"

What is Halo: The Fall of Reach? Halo: The Fall of Reach is the official tie-in novel to Halo, written by Eric Nylund with the Bungie team's assistance. It is a prequel to the game, exploring the origins of the game's major characters, the war with the Covenant, and the events leading up to the discovery of Halo by the Pillar of Autumn. It contains a great deal of story-related information and explains a good deal of the passing references in the game, as well as fleshing out the Halo universe and in the opinion of yours truly is some rather good military science fiction.


What is the Halo Story Bible? The existence of a Halo Story Bible was revealed during discussion surrounding Halo: The Fall of Reach. It is Bungie's compendium of all things Halo, the canonical guide to the universe. However, Bungie has stated that they will not release this bible to anyone unofficial (not even to writers of fan fiction).

Link Prior to Frankie's statement I would have said the books were canon too, since Bungie signed off on them. I think Frankie/Bungie just recently discovered some of the bad connotations of using "Plasma" so the statement probably indicates a retcon of everything else.

Not everything was retconned. Joe Staten laid it out here precisely what Bungie's running canon policy was. Somewhat similar to Star Wars' tiers of canon.

[Sidewinder]

As stupid as the Landkreuzer was, I must admit, it looked pretty cool. (Of course, that doesn't change the fact that to make the damn thing work, you'd have to design an anti-gravity propulsion system and a miniature nuclear reactor to power it.)

Overall, I think the Nazis were worse. As wasteful as the SPARTAN-II and III Projects were, at least they produced something that actually worked, and, in Master Chief's case, actually turned the tide of the war for the side that initiated them. (Of course, the Arbiter and the Elites' defections were a big help as well.)

[PeZook]

As stupid as the Landkreuzer was, I must admit, it looked pretty cool. (Of course, that doesn't change the fact that to make the damn thing work, you'd have to design an anti-gravity propulsion system and a miniature nuclear reactor to power it.)

And assign an air-defence division so that it wouldn't get splattered by Allied air power. And then figure out a way to intercept artillery and get it to move across rivers. Oh, and figure out a way to get enough steel to actually build one.

[Sea Skimmer]

Actually, I find the Maus better, because they actually built one. And, predictably, it was a barely mobile threaded bunker.[/

They built two of the things in fact, started work on several more hulls, and beyond that also built one hull for the E100 tank, which when completed would have weighed merely 140 tons instead of 188 for Maus. They also built at least one prototype of a Tiger II hull turned self propelled gun (indirect fire with thin armor, not an assault gun) which has to be one of the most brilliant ideas for expending resources ever.

Anyway being a mobile bunker was its whole point, as it was intended to support the Atlantic Wall. Design speed was 20kph but it managed a mighty 13kph on trials.

And assign an air-defence division so that it wouldn't get splattered by Allied air power. And then figure out a way to intercept artillery and get it to move across rivers. Oh, and figure out a way to get enough steel to actually build one.

Rivers aren’t really an obstacle to a vehicle big enough to ford 30 foot deep water, if not more. Just imagine how tall of a snorkel you could have on Ratt. You’d need to prepare the banks for entry and exit, but with the thing advancing at maybe 5kph you’ll have ample time to do this. I just wouldn’t want to have to parallel park it at the Gross Uberdeutschland Tank Designers Convention. IIRC the power to weight ratio would have been like .5hp per ton based on realistic calculations of the vehicles weight (it could not have been 1000 tons)

[frogcurry]

V1 rocket, V2 rocket, the Tiger (not the stupid Konigstiger though), the Panzerfaust, the first assault rifle, infra-red optics, jet engine fighters and bombers, rocket fighters, the air-to-air missles. Compared to what, one military project to make a handful of better infantry? Sure good commandos but if you just bombed Master Chief he'd still bloody die.

The germans win in my opinion because they produced so much good stuff. A lot of the bad ideas seem to be more the result of Hitler and others obsessing about less practical ideas and pushing them forward.

[Gerald Tarrant]

I thought the Spartan-II's were designed as a counter-insurgency force, unless things have been ret-conned.

As to the points that have been raised about the UNSC's failure to expand the MJOLNIR program to encompass the entire Marine Corps, there are signs that there were attempts to do just that. The SPARTAN-III program, which produced hundreds of combat-ready soldiers before its base on ONYX was destroyed, employed more efficient augmentation procedures and lower-grade powered armor.

Wait, the SPARTAN-III wasn't located on Earth or a central colony? I would have thought the UNSC learned its lesson after Fall of Reach, when if you recall the Spartans almost were not able to receive their armor, since the research facility was in the boonies, and being blockaded by a Covie ship. Seriously the UNSC must have realized how useful the Spartans were, so why did they stick them in the middle of nowhere, when the Covies can basically K.O. any outer colony they want. Production facilities for potentially war-winning resources should (if possible) be protected, in this case I think they ought to have put it on Earth.

Its graduates successfully expanded upon the SPARTAN-IIs role as spec ops soldiers, accomplishing large-scale actions that the tiny number of second-generation SPARTANs could not (admittedly with an incredible casuality rate due to the increasingly desperate nature of the war). Had the effort gotten off the ground earlier in the conflict, its likely it would have been expanded even further; politics in the UNSC command structure seems to have slowed the growth of both SPARTAN programs (as alluded to in the Fall of Reach). As things were, the UNSC seemed more focused on churning out battleships and evacuating compromised wolds earlier on, which may have been a superior allocation of resources in any event (the exceptional circumstances of the last months of the war aside).

I'm going to reiterate my point about the armor. The UNSC still seems to be in the business of going about augmenting people then giving them armor. Tweak the armor to make it available for general issue, or to elite unaugmented units. A general issue shield generator would even be worth something. Even a one time use (i.e. no recharge) shield issued to units supporting the Master Chief would have made things better. As it is, on my last play through of a Legendary campaign in Halo 1 and 2 I don't recall making it through more than half of a level with any allies left. The game (and since Legendary is apparently high canon) and consequently the story would be very different if the chief had useful allies on those "fate of the world" missions he always seems to be running.

[Peptuck]

Wait, the SPARTAN-III wasn't located on Earth or a central colony? I would have thought the UNSC learned its lesson after Fall of Reach, when if you recall the Spartans almost were not able to receive their armor, since the research facility was in the boonies, and being blockaded by a Covie ship. Seriously the UNSC must have realized how useful the Spartans were, so why did they stick them in the middle of nowhere, when the Covies can basically K.O. any outer colony they want. Production facilities for potentially war-winning resources should (if possible) be protected, in this case I think they ought to have put it on Earth.

The operation was top secret. As in, "if this gets out the government is going to collapse" sort of secret. They were basically training children to be genetically augmented super soldier suicide troops. They had to keep it away from any major population centers.

There was the risk that the Covenant could find it, but the Covenant had already shown they could easily destroy any human world once they discovered it, meaning that secrecy is the only real defense the humans have.

[Gerald Tarrant]

The operation was top secret. As in, "if this gets out the government is going to collapse" sort of secret. They were basically training children to be genetically augmented super soldier suicide troops. They had to keep it away from any major population centers.

This makes the decision to not fix the armor first even more stupid. Honestly I just become more and more annoyed with HALO-verse the more back-story I hear. By the end of Fall of Reach the UNSC has had MJOLNIR armor for what 25 years? And during that time the best solution they come up with still requires biological tinkering. Seriously WTF? The UNSC already has good soldiers, they're called Veterans. And the preferred solution they pick? "They were basically training children to be genetically augmented super soldier suicide troops." This solution also has the disadvantage that it can't get wide dissemination (or the government will fall), it's research is probably classified (or the government will fall) and the personnel responsible are probably all at ONYX (so they can't be discovered by a newsie and the government will fall), which means when ONYX got KO'd vital expertise was lost.

There was the risk that the Covenant could find it, but the Covenant had already shown they could easily destroy any human world once they discovered it, meaning that secrecy is the only real defense the humans have.

Or base a simplified, no biological engineering, just armor engineering and training program off of Earth. It's the heart of humanity, if it goes we've lost anyway.

[Peptuck]

This makes the decision to not fix the armor first even more stupid. By the end of Fall of Reach the UNSC has had MJOLNIR armor for what 25 years? And during that time the best solution they come up with still requires biological tinkering. Seriously WTF?

By that point (well, actually, much earlier) the UNSC had already abandoned the S-IIs and their MJOLNIR as anything more than propoganda weapons; they weren't making anymore, though they were working on upgrading the MJOLNIR Mark V to Mark VI. They'd switched over to the S-IIIs, who wore SPI armor, which is a lot more economical, cheaper, and apparently doesn't need supersoldiers to wear it. Still more expensive than regular armor, so its not economical to arm Marines with it.

Except the UNSC, being terminal retards, chose to throw away every generation of S-IIIs and their expensive SPI armor on suicide runs on critical Covenant manufacturing. Especially when it would have been just as easy for the UNSC to just send ships loaded with nuclear missiles and nuke-spam the Covenant manufacturing facilities. Good job, Eric Nylund! Every book you write just makes the UNSC look more idiotic!

Or base a simplified, no biological engineering, just armor engineering and training program off of Earth. It's the heart of humanity, if it goes we've lost anyway.

Well, they did base the new MJOLNIR armor testing facilities on Earth at Songnam, though I'm left wondering why they were bothering upgrading MJOLNIR at all with the Spartans having suffered more than 80% losses at Reach. The only reason I can think of is propoganda, which the UNSC is very competent at.

Honestly I just become more and more annoyed with HALO-verse the more back-story I hear.

Pretty much all this stupidty is Eric Nylund's fault. Hes the one who wrote FoR and Ghosts of Onyx and came up with all the stupid "MJOLNIR TOO AWSUM 4 HUMANS!!!11!" bullshit.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Well, they did base the new MJOLNIR armor testing facilities on Earth at Songnam, though I'm left wondering why they were bothering upgrading MJOLNIR at all with the Spartans having suffered more than 80% losses at Reach. The only reason I can think of is propaganda, which the UNSC is very competent at.

Well, given John got the mk VI armour maybe a month after the fall of reach it had probable been in development for some period of time already.

[CaptainZoidberg]

I'm not sure I see what's so stupid about the UNSC's policy.

1. They tried to genetically engineer super soldiers.

Had they designed the soldiers to fit the suits, they'd indeed be quite moronic. But I'd imagine that they realized the necessity for having soldiers that moved faster, reacted faster, and were generally on par with Covenant Elites - then decided that they'd both need to design suits and people to use the suit.

So I don't see what's so moronic about designing a suit that can only be used by a genetically engineered super-soldier, if it's understood that having a genetically engineering super-soldier is a fundamental part of the project that goes beyond the ability to use the suit.

2. They spent a lot of resources developing shielding and full NBC protection for the Spartan IIs.

I've never seen anything regarding it in canon, but I can only imagine a squad of Elites and Grunts (the former with shields and the later with airmasks) firing nerve gas or using VX against a squad of helpless UNSC troopers.

Aside from Masterchief I've never seen a UNSC trooper with built in NBC protection - so it's possible that the UNSC simply lacks the ability to equip normal armor with protection against such agents.

So even if Spartan IIs weren't themselves worth the full cost of their development - isn't it possible that the technologies required by the Spartan IIs (shields, NBC protection, integrated AI) were going to be integral aspects of any future infantry developments?

--------

On a secondary note, I think you guys are somewhat underestimating the strength of the UNSC with respect to the Covenant. Yes, they were weaker - and yes, they were losing the war - but they were still roughly on the same level of power as the Covenant.

UNSC MAC formations were able to hold their own against Covenant capital ships, which of course necessitated the fighter/boarding craft tactics used against the MACs at the beginning of Halo 2.

At the beginning of Halo 1, the UNSC Pillar of Autumn was able to hold off a Covenant fleet for quite some time, and fare pretty well against Covenant ground forces after crashlanding on the Halo (of course, the status of the Halo in Covenant culture played some role in this).

I'm not saying that the UNSC was stronger than the Covenant by any means, I'm only saying the UNSC was able to challenge them in terms of conventional arms and military strength.

[Pulp Hero]

Just because you've never seen a normal UNSC trooper with NBC protection does not mean they do not have it. Look at modern soldiers- they do not wear NBC gear all the time. NBC gear is fucking hot, tires you out, and throws off you weapon sighting and dexterity.

And as an aside are ODST suits NBC protective?

[CaptainZoidberg]

Just because you've never seen a normal UNSC trooper with NBC protection does not mean they do not have it. Look at modern soldiers- they do not wear NBC gear all the time. NBC gear is fucking hot, tires you out, and throws off you weapon sighting and dexterity.

Well, there are still advantages to having NBC protection that is always on, and doesn't require a change of suit.

Also, on a Spartan II there wouldn't be the serious issues with heat/sighting/and dexterity since the suit is huge and thick to begin with.

But I do agree that marines might have NBC protection, although its almost definitely quite inferior to the always-on, fully integrated NBC protection of a Spartan II.

And as an aside are ODST suits NBC protective?

http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/e/e1/Odst2.png

It certainly appears to be closed off. Also, I'd imagine that the HEVs would kick up a lot of smoke and dust when they crash into the ground, so I'd imagine the ODSTs would need a filter and respirator to be able to quickly exit the HEV and move.

[Peptuck]

1. They tried to genetically engineer super soldiers.

Had they designed the soldiers to fit the suits, they'd indeed be quite moronic. But I'd imagine that they realized the necessity for having soldiers that moved faster, reacted faster, and were generally on par with Covenant Elites - then decided that they'd both need to design suits and people to use the suit.

So I don't see what's so moronic about designing a suit that can only be used by a genetically engineered super-soldier, if it's understood that having a genetically engineering super-soldier is a fundamental part of the project that goes beyond the ability to use the suit.

Except they apprently designed the suit for ordinary humans first, and only when it failed did they begin designing the Spartans to use the suit. Fall of Reach shows that they tested MJOLNIR on ordinary humans with ridiculous results.

2. They spent a lot of resources developing shielding and full NBC protection for the Spartan IIs.

I've never seen anything regarding it in canon, but I can only imagine a squad of Elites and Grunts (the former with shields and the later with airmasks) firing nerve gas or using VX against a squad of helpless UNSC troopers.

Aside from Masterchief I've never seen a UNSC trooper with built in NBC protection - so it's possible that the UNSC simply lacks the ability to equip normal armor with protection against such agents.

So even if Spartan IIs weren't themselves worth the full cost of their development - isn't it possible that the technologies required by the Spartan IIs (shields, NBC protection, integrated AI) were going to be integral aspects of any future infantry developments?

I always imagined that NBC gear isn't standard simply because the Covenant don't use gas weapons, either out of whatever stupid sense of honor they have or because they never, ever, ever, ever innovate. That said, we know that the UNSC has NBC equipment - some of the crates in Halo 2 and Halo 3 have VX gas and gas mask markings.

[CaptainZoidberg]

Except they apprently designed the suit for ordinary humans first, and only when it failed did they begin designing the Spartans to use the suit. Fall of Reach shows that they tested MJOLNIR on ordinary humans with ridiculous results.

I haven't read the book - but maybe they had already designed the armor for a planned group of genetically engineered supersoldiers and were just trying to see as a side-project if the suit could be modified for regular people.

But yes, if they had some bad test results and decided to redesign people instead of the suit - then they're indeed morons.

I always imagined that NBC gear isn't standard simply because the Covenant don't use gas weapons, either out of whatever stupid sense of honor they have or because they never, ever, ever, ever innovate. That said, we know that the UNSC has NBC equipment - some of the crates in Halo 2 and Halo 3 have VX gas and gas mask markings.

I wonder if they used VX gas when the Covenant were taking over the Pillar of Autumn. It seemed like there were quite a few rooms which could be sealed in the front and back and then flooded with VX gas. I think it would've made sense for them to put some of that in the rooms connecting the cafeteria to the bridge, to delay capture.