SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK III

[CmdrWilkens]

Here are a couple problems Shep:

1) Even at best you couldn't mount a convoy larger than half of the navies enforcing the maritime exclusion zone

2) All of the ports which you could offload a tank or toher piece of heavy weaponry at are on the South or Western side of TL and therefore MUCH closer to the two JTFs than to anybody else

3) You are SEVERELY outgunned in a fighting war because aside from the parity in nukes (which makes MAD all too real) you've got 6 carriers going up against 18

Again that's all OOC, IC I'll probably be a bit more diplomatic but just a bit. Realistically your options are; Shooting war which you lose drastically, Shooting war which goes MAD and everybody dies because you can't keep your hand off the trigger, or no war because you finally agree to stop arming and encouraging genocide.


Completely to the side but Wilkoia's information in the reference thread has been updated through late 2010 and condensed for easier viewing.

[MKSheppard]

Realistically, the MESS' options are:

1.) Do nothing, let convoy pass through.

2.) Open fire on Shepnukistani/Saddamistani convoy, which retalitates with assorted weapons. The question of whether it's war or not rests in the MESS' hands. Are you really ready to risk global war over a bunch of anarcho-jihadis?

[Sea Skimmer]

The USN doesn’t need ports to unload heavy equipment, neither does Sheppards convoy. You can empty a big freighter into lighters and floating causeways in three days or so.

Edit: What’s more you might recall that carrier aircraft count towards the total fighter plane fleet each nations has, so deploying a full carrier fleet with worthwhile combat air groups will leave your homelands SEVERELY exposed to bomber and cruise missile attacks.

[Mr Bean]

Two things in Sheppard's defense(kinda)

1. If your on that side of Terra Liberita your in range of Saddamn's land based anti-ship missiles, so your JTF would have to deal with land and Naval fire

2. If you do stop him he claims to go nuclear so the size differential does not matter.

For example even if he's not talking B-1's there are the Nuclear Anti-ship missiles such as the SS-22 varient which carried a 350 kiloton nuclear warhead.

One of those just needs to go off within one mile of your carrier to shut down flight operations. (And likely sink the carrier)

This is Sheppard we are talking about, had this happen a year or two later each Regiment would have a Davy Crockett Launcher. And Division would have at least 10 megatons of devices.

Unlike in old Earth we are still mostly limited to plane delivered systems making MAD less likely.

[CmdrWilkens]

The USN doesn’t need ports to unload heavy equipment, neither does Sheppards convoy. You can empty a big freighter into lighters and floating causeways in three days or so.

Really? Where has he stated or developed this capacity. We were told since we hadn't op'd Minesweepers that we didn't have them. Well shep didn't Op or state he was developing freighters with RO/RO capacity or the ability to self-unload onto lighters therefore they don't exist. If i've missed that declaration please point me to it otherwise his convoy is going to be composed of either FCSs of which I'm not even sure how many he has.

[MKSheppard]

Well shep didn't Op or state he was developing freighters with RO/RO capacity or the ability to self-unload onto lighters therefore they don't exist.

We're looking at a total convoy size of around thirty or forty plus cargo ships, and since most of them aren't roll on-roll off ships, loading and unloading them will take a significant amount of time -- we estimate it'll take around a month before the convoy is ready to sail.

As for composition; there are a few FCS in the convoy (I did contract to buy about 10 or so from the ICSA a long time ago); but the overwhelming majority are your random freighters that you can find almost anywhere in the world.

[Sea Skimmer]

Really? Where has he stated or developed this capacity.

Developed? People have been unloading ships, even container ships, onto barges for two thousand years. You have a crane on the ship, you lower cargo over the side. Nothing more too it. Some shit might get dropped in the drink along the way, but its all surplus crap to begin with

We were told since we hadn't op'd Minesweepers that we didn't have them.

What bullshit, all I ever did was point out that peoples normal surface warships as per the OP don’t have minehunting capability which is completely true. I never said people didn’t have any minewarfare capability period, that would just be stupid. In fact I made that statement mainly just to inform people of the issue, since I figured many of our participants probably just didn’t know much of anything about naval mine warfare, not because I give a damn if someone refitted a Ticonderoga to carry minehunting sonar and an remote underwater vechical to blow up the mines.

Well shep didn't Op or state he was developing freighters with RO/RO capacity or the ability to self-unload onto lighters therefore they don't exist. If i've missed that declaration please point me to it otherwise his convoy is going to be composed of either FCSs of which I'm not even sure how many he has.

He’s not sending RO/ROs to start with as i recall and if your going to try to bullshit that people don’t have fucking freighters with cranes onboard because they didn’t declare them then I declare that you can’t fly any of your fucking fighter planes because you never declared having fuel trucks to fill them up. No missiles or 20mm ammo to arm them either. This is pure stupidity, Sheppard is declaring nothing unreasonable or unrealistic with his convoy. Never mind the fact that RO-ROs and LASH barge carriers are both civilian ideas only much later adapted to military service, and both types of ships would HAVE to exist for the massive economies this game has.

[CmdrWilkens]

Two things in Sheppard's defense(kinda)

1. If your on that side of Terra Liberita your in range of Saddamn's land based anti-ship missiles, so your JTF would have to deal with land and Naval fire

2. If you do stop him he claims to go nuclear so the size differential does not matter.

For example even if he's not talking B-1's there are the Nuclear Anti-ship missiles such as the SS-22 varient which carried a 350 kiloton nuclear warhead.

One of those just needs to go off within one mile of your carrier to shut down flight operations. (And likely sink the carrier)

This is Sheppard we are talking about, had this happen a year or two later each Regiment would have a Davy Crockett Launcher. And Division would have at least 10 megatons of devices.

Unlike in old Earth we are still mostly limited to plane delivered systems making MAD less likely.

Well going back to that:

1) The ports of TL are at least halfway down the west coast so forces can easily intercept fro well shy of there given that they would have to come from Western Saddamistan and thus are on a very narrow and obvious course of appraoch. This means that I can intercept at a time and place of my choosing. New Delphi is roughly 300mi south of the closest point on Saddamistan (and that is with the missile violating airspace) so with a decent air cover I will have PLENTY of warning (an ASM going roughly 510kt is still gonna take 20+ min to get there)

For the ports on the South (there are no ports on the east) he can either come the same way, and thus run into the same problem only with greater distances from the supporting land based ASMs, or he can come through the straights between Saddamistan and Adrianopolis in which case he is in range of OUR land based weapons and we don't even need more than a few frigates or cutters t do the job, OR he can go all the way around Adrianopolis which has all the same problems nd allows us to confront him as he swings northward away from any land based ASMs.

So long story short any confrontation takes place AT BEST 300mi from the closest land based ASMS and with a severe disadvantage in naval firepower. Oh yes ad before this he sitll has to sail past canissia and the Shinra Republic just to get into that position.

2) If as he claims he goes Nuclear but then he would have to deal with the air defenses of the various MESS nations (honestly Coyote would be the only easy-esque strike and we are already moving assets to protect him) in terms of air delivered. When you look at delivery means available to him versus the defenses arrayed against him its doubtful he could get more than one or two strikes in and they HE would be subjet to retaliation strikes. If he spreads the load around then its all the more defenses to get through. For submarines launched he sold off his subs and the WIN has the 2nd largest subfleet (Bean's is the only one larger IIRC) and they have been deployed since Saddam threatened to launch nukes with his SSGNs add in the other navies and its again hihgly ulikely a sub based strike would suceed and even then it would have to be cruise missile launched or short range SLBM launched and then the rest of the naval assets who are all on high alert stand a pretty decent chance of catching such an attack.

For a tactical strike first he would have to bring enough of a force to match the JTF and then somehow penetrate the BARCAP while also avoiding a counter striek and hope that the winds don't take the fallout back over his ally's nation. Honestly I know Shep wants to start a nuclear war but its unlikely. If he even produed as many devices for himself as he produced for the rest of OMSK (which would be tough in only 1 year since finally getting a working device) he would only have 100 total units which is close to what the MESS can deploy against him and neither side has a means to reliably penetrate the other's air defenses.

As to land based systems he would have to get his army there somehow and he has never posted amphibs so he can't move the damn things unless he jury rigs freighters and those can be sunk since he, again, carries an 18-6 carrier disadvantage and that is granting Saddamistan with 3 carriers because I don't recall his OP so I gave him the rough max everyone gave themselves.

[CmdrWilkens]

The USN doesn’t need ports to unload heavy equipment, neither does Sheppards convoy. You can empty a big freighter into lighters and floating causeways in three days or so.

Edit: What’s more you might recall that carrier aircraft count towards the total fighter plane fleet each nations has, so deploying a full carrier fleet with worthwhile combat air groups will leave your homelands SEVERELY exposed to bomber and cruise missile attacks.

Yup which is why I've been adding to my land based fighters since my OP and have upped my carrier wings with aquisitions as well.

As to the freighters deal conceded on that point though the loading/offloading will present a large amount of time whe they are stationary and easily detainable.

[Raj Ahten]

Hot damn. Sadaamistan and Shepnukistan together? I don't see it ending well.

In other matters I need to know who exactly has people operating in Alexandria. The Iron General dos not allow ayone in unless they are invited by him and play nice. Anyone else is likely to hunted down if they are a foreign agent. Tonkin and ProTec are on the list for providing military assistance, with no else really invited. He allows aid groups from most anyone, but I am going to have him ask anyone from Shepnukistan and sadaamistan to leave. The general wants to avoid any links to such people, as he thinks they will get him in a war he doesn't want and sadaamistan is a rival with designs on Libertopia.

However if you want Shep, your special forces could certainly be liasing with some of the high mountain warlords in Alexander's terrritory if you want. He doesn't exactly have good control of some of them.

Edit: It should be said that if anyone wants a prsence in Alexandrai, they should ask the Iron General. He is not willing to pony up and unleash a proxy war though. Alexandria is his nation (It's the same as his own name, and he is working on making it a true state.) and he actually gives a shit what happens to it and the people in it.

[Lonestar]

The USN doesn’t need ports to unload heavy equipment, neither does Sheppards convoy. You can empty a big freighter into lighters and floating causeways in three days or so.

Edit: What’s more you might recall that carrier aircraft count towards the total fighter plane fleet each nations has, so deploying a full carrier fleet with worthwhile combat air groups will leave your homelands SEVERELY exposed to bomber and cruise missile attacks.

That's a negative, I took that into account when I drew my air force up.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, since Shep has left OMSK, OMSK has ceased to be an effective force, as far as I am concerned.

[MKSheppard]

In other matters I need to know who exactly has people operating in Alexandria. The Iron General dos not allow ayone in unless they are invited by him and play nice. Anyone else is likely to hunted down if they are a foreign agent. Tonkin and ProTec are on the list for providing military assistance, with no else really invited.

I've been liasing with the IRT through backchannels; and have been supplying arms and ammunition via IHS airlifts to both sides (Iron General and Diocese).

[Coyote]

Blackadder is all that's left of OMSK, now, right?

[Raj Ahten]

In other matters I need to know who exactly has people operating in Alexandria. The Iron General dos not allow ayone in unless they are invited by him and play nice. Anyone else is likely to hunted down if they are a foreign agent. Tonkin and ProTec are on the list for providing military assistance, with no else really invited.

I've been liasing with the IRT through backchannels; and have been supplying arms and ammunition via IHS airlifts to both sides (Iron General and Diocese).

Well I don't remember it being posted before, and I am pretty much controlling Alexander now. About how long has it been going on?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If Shep thinks he wants to fight a proxy war with the Diocese, I am only one step away from plunging the Diocese into a civil war.

[MKSheppard]

Well I don't remember it being posted before

It's mainly been going on in the background between me and Phong in AIMs.

About how long has it been going on?

Probably a couple months in game. Alexander is getting some Shiny new M113s and M113s with Bradley Turrets; they're on a ship somewhere; and we've also built up the Diocese's and Alexandria's air force to about 6 A-37D Dragonflies each.

[Beowulf]

Blackadder is all that's left of OMSK, now, right?

There's some other members, but he's the only member of the security council left.

[Raj Ahten]

Well I don't remember it being posted before

It's mainly been going on in the background between me and Phong in AIMs.

About how long has it been going on?

Probably a couple months in game. Alexander is getting some Shiny new M113s and M113s with Bradley Turrets; they're on a ship somewhere; and we've also built up the Diocese's and Alexandria's air force to about 6 A-37D Dragonflies each.

I'll edit the post to acomadate this reality. The Iron General pays for all the euipment he buys.

For everyone I would really apreciate it if you contact me with any developements regarding Alexandria, just so the Iron General can react apropriately.

[Mr Bean]

Blackadder is all that's left of OMSK, now, right?

There's some other members, but he's the only member of the security council left.

Stas as not "officaly" withdrawn and we've been PMing back and forth.

As of right now OMSK is The Red Technocracy, the UKB, Crossroadia, The Kingdom of Zoria, the Kingdom of New Patria, The Duchy of Langley and finally the Republic of Vuplesia know party Island.

(126.1 million people, Group GDP of 3.61 trillion dollars )
{What we lost 104 million people 2.675 trillion GDP
Bzyantium 15 milllion , 375billion
Neverhood 29 million 800 billion
Shepnukstain 60 1.5 trillion)


To say with the departure of Shepnukstain that OMSK is no longer a force is rather silly. We still mass 20% more population wise than FUN does even without Sheppard and Neverhood. True we got hit, close to 40% of our total GDP (6.2 to 3.6 trillion GDP is a big hit, and we lost nearly 50% in our population from 230.1 million to 126 million is a hit as well)

What has happened, with Sheppard Gone and Byzantium away(All you've done is make yourself a target Emperor) is that we've gone from 34% of the worlds population and 38% of the worlds GDP to just shy of 20% of both.

Not a massive hit, we still control over fifteen percent of the world's population, wealth and forces.

[Raj Ahten]

About the Iron General’s forces: Right now they are going through a major reorganization into an army which can fight large battles and whole campaigns. Troop quality was never the issue for him. His men were always well trained in infantry basics and fought well at the company level (Which was all that was really needed for most libertopian engagements.) Now his force is learning to work together in larger units, and the officer corps is being professionalized as well. All the new equipment he is receiving also needs to be trained on.

Alexander’s goal is to have a fully professional army that doesn’t need foreign advisers. To make that happen he needs such men though.

On a broader level his goal is to consolidate power and become a true state, as well as make Alexandria less of a shithole.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

To say with the departure of Shepnukstain that OMSK is no longer a force is rather silly. We still mass 20% more population wise than FUN does even without Sheppard and Neverhood. True we got hit, close to 40% of our total GDP (6.2 to 3.6 trillion GDP is a big hit, and we lost nearly 50% in our population from 230.1 million to 126 million is a hit as well)

What has happened, with Sheppard Gone and Byzantium away(All you've done is make yourself a target Emperor) is that we've gone from 34% of the worlds population and 38% of the worlds GDP to just shy of 20% of both.

Not a massive hit, we still control over fifteen percent of the world's population, wealth and forces.

I'm sorry, but our pro-Sultanate policy would have resulted in us coming into conflict with you long ago and quite frankly, even as a Security Council member, we won't be dictated by the rest of you on Terra Libertian policy, and we have been increasingly frustrated by the various underhanded actions taken. So all in all, the alliance, while on paper looks strong, has the unity of a bunch of monkeys either jostling for attention, or couldn't care less, like Zoria and Crossroadia and many of the Duchies.

[Master_Baerne]

My response to all the recent events shall consist of:

Oh, dear. Oh, dear oh dear oh dear.

[Mr Bean]

I'm sorry, but our pro-Sultanate policy would have resulted in us coming into conflict with you long ago and quite frankly, even as a Security Council member, we won't be dictated by the rest of you on Terra Libertian policy, and we have been increasingly frustrated by the various underhanded actions taken. So all in all, the alliance, while on paper looks strong, has the unity of a bunch of monkeys either jostling for attention, or couldn't care less, like Zoria and Crossroadia and many of the Duchies.

Even given that it would have made ten times more sense to simply go indepndant, or join FUN rather than the MESS. By joining the Mess you've placed yourself on a short list of Shepnukstain targets. Staying in OMSK has it's issues fine, but joining the Mess is like putting on Cryp's colors while still in Blood territory.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Even given that it would have made ten times more sense to simply go indepndant, or join FUN rather than the MESS. By joining the Mess you've placed yourself on a short list of Shepnukstain targets. Staying in OMSK has it's issues fine, but joining the Mess is like putting on Cryp's colors while still in Blood territory.

The bulk of FUN is too far away to run to my aid should I ever get entangled with Shepnukistan, especially when I have my ships monitoring any of the "aid" that flies to and ships to Terra Libertia.

And OMSK? You guys would probably either 1. Let me get tangled with Shepnukistan anyway, or 2. use Security Council directives which I won't be inclined to follow.

And Independent? Why, I might as well have jumped off the cliff.