Chavez Says US Plane Was Spying on Military Base

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Chavez Says US Plane Was Spying on Military Base

Post by Sidewinder »

First, some background.
The Associated Press wrote:US envoy calls plane incident accidental
By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER – 4 days ago

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Washington's top diplomat in Venezuela said Tuesday the United States is taking steps to make sure its counter-drug planes don't stray into Venezuelan airspace again — but President Hugo Chavez's government isn't satisfied.

U.S. Ambassador Patrick Duddy acknowledged an S-3 Navy plane flew into Venezuelan airspace during an anti-drug mission over the Caribbean Sea, saying it was an accident due to a navigational error.

But Venezuelan Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro presented Duddy with a protest letter and said after their meeting that he was not satisfied.

"We've received responses from the U.S. ambassador that do not please us," he said, calling the flyover one of many U.S. "provocations."

The incident could heighten long-standing tensions between the U.S. and Venezuela.

The plane was detected by Venezuelan authorities on Saturday near the island of La Orchila, and its crew was questioned over the radio by the Caracas airport control tower.

In the meeting, Duddy said he reiterated the U.S. government's interest in "renewing counter-drug cooperation," which has been scaled back in recent years. He also brought up concerns about alleged links between Venezuela's government and leftist Colombian rebels.

Colombia says files retrieved from the computers of slain rebels show Venezuela sought to finance and arm the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC. The international police agency Interpol found no evidence of tampering with the files, but Chavez has dismissed the findings as a sham.

Maduro said U.S. officials are committing a "series of errors" and that the computers were not properly safeguarded to prevent meddling with the files.
Now this.
Bloomberg.com wrote:Chavez Says U.S. Plane Was Spying on Military Base (Update1)

By Daniel Cancel

May 21 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said the U.S. Navy S-3 aircraft that flew into his country's airspace on May 17 was spying on a Venezuelan military base on Orchila Island.

Chavez said the U.S. was testing Venezuela's ability to detect intruders and that the Venezuelan air force was prepared to intercept the plane had it not turned back toward the Caribbean island of Curacao.

"They're spying, they're even testing our reaction capacity,'' Chavez said on state television. "In this case the plane left, but if it hadn't our pilots were starting the engines on the Sukhois to guarantee the sovereignty of our national territory.''

Relations between Venezuela, the U.S. and Colombia, the U.S.'s closest ally in Latin America, have been tense since Colombia accused Chavez of supporting the region's biggest guerrilla group in its 44-year war against the Colombian government.

U.S. ambassador to Caracas Patrick Duddy yesterday reiterated the U.S. military's explanation that the over-flight stemmed from a navigational error by a drug surveillance plane. Duddy said he hoped Venezuela would cooperate in operations to detect narcotics trafficking.

Border Incident

Venezuela's Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro gave Duddy a letter of protest yesterday.

Venezuela also complained of an alleged border incursion by a group of 60 Colombian troops on May 16 in the southwestern state of Apure. The two countries, who share a border of 2,050 kilometers (1,274 miles), said they would resolve the incident diplomatically in the coming days.

Chavez, who spent $4.4 billion in weapons purchases from 2003 to 2006, has denied he provides aid to the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, as the rebels are known, and accuses the U.S. of wanting to provoke a war with Venezuela.

``They accuse us of being in an arms race, that's not true, we're simply strengthening our armed forces,'' Chavez said. ``We're being threatened by the Empire. What do they want? That we disarm?''

To contact the reporter on this story: Daniel Cancel in Caracas at dcancel@bloomberg.net.

Last Updated: May 21, 2008 15:58 EDT
Personally, I believe claims that the S-3 made a navigational error. (The USN has better aircraft for performing reconnaissance over defended territory, i.e., the F/A-18E/F equipped with the Shared
Reconnaissance Pod
.) Thoughts?
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Post by Kanastrous »

I don't think any of the S-3-derived ELINT aircraft are still in service, are they...?
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Post by Venator »

Kanastrous wrote:I don't think any of the S-3-derived ELINT aircraft are still in service, are they...?
According to wiki, they're still in "limited use" pending retirement next year.

It could be an airspace probe; if a high-performance aircraft like the Super Hornet was caught overflying an unfriendly country it would cause a bigger stir than an old plane like the Viking.

Of course, it could just be an innocent navigational error, too.
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Post by Venator »

Ghetto Edit - my mistake, the ES-3A was apparently taken out of service with the US Navy in 1999. Could still be used for anti-drug operations, I wouldn't know.
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Post by Sidewinder »

Venator wrote:It could be an airspace probe; if a high-performance aircraft like the Super Hornet was caught overflying an unfriendly country it would cause a bigger stir than an old plane like the Viking.
The Super Hornet was designed to have a lower radar signature, so it would be harder for air defense units to counter. If the US wanted to probe Venezuelam airspace, it would've used something more difficult to detect, target, and shoot down, i.e., NOT THE S-3.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Post by Mr. Coffee »

See, shit like this makes me think it'd be fucking hilarious if we reactivated the SR-71 just for the sole purpose of not poking a few miles into his airspace, but flat out violating it like a drunk prom queen at a biker bar on daily basis.
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Post by Vympel »

"They're spying, they're even testing our reaction capacity,'' Chavez said on state television. "In this case the plane left, but if it hadn't our pilots were starting the engines on the Sukhois to guarantee the sovereignty of our national territory.''
Hugo loves his Russian toys. Su-30MK2s intercepting that S-3 would've made for some good photos if the S-3 crew had a camera ...
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Sadly the US Military engages in way more than it's fair share of 'gross navigational errors'. I saw a statistic once stating that we commit like 40% of the errors on the North Atlantic Tracks while making up 2.5% of the total traffic. About two years ago we had a KC-135 fly 60 miles into Iran after fat fingering a waypoint into their nav computer.


The question I would like to see answered; are they claiming violation of sovereign airspace or a FIR boundary, and by how many miles?
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Post by tim31 »

Sounds like a scene from an early Dale Brown novel...
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

If we wanted to spy on Venezuelan (and Im sure we do, from time to time) we’d send a U-2 or a Global hawk or an RC-135 or a EC-130, not an ES-3; assuming we did in fact still have them. Its a small plane available in small numbers with limited capabilities, it wouldn’t make sense to use it against a country that’s within easy range of air bases which are sovereign US soil. An RC-135 or EC-130 could blend right into normal passenger air traffic and fly a circuit completely around the country by faking a civilian flight plan in Brazil after ducking through Columbia.
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Post by CJvR »

"They're spying, they're even testing our reaction capacity,'' Chavez said on state television. "In this case the plane left, but if it hadn't our pilots were starting the engines on the Sukhois to guarantee the sovereignty of our national territory.''
He is convinced the evil empire is about to jump him at any time and he does not have a flight on permanent standby with their engines running? If the US were ever serious it sounds like they would have an excelent chance of catching all of Chaves shiny new toys on the ground.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

tim31 wrote:Sounds like a scene from an early Dale Brown novel...
Yes but if that were the case then it would mean we have super K/E/S/A/F-3Bs that can magically do 180s inside their own wingspan and sport rotating mini-gun pods that are accurate to 10mi and can fly with one person thinking commands directly to the flight computer.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

CJvR wrote:He is convinced the evil empire is about to jump him at any time and he does not have a flight on permanent standby with their engines running? If the US were ever serious it sounds like they would have an excelent chance of catching all of Chaves shiny new toys on the ground.
No one keeps fighters on alert with engines running, especially not when they only have about a dozen of the aircraft to start with. 5 minute readiness is the highest state you can hope to maintain for any length of time and even that’s pushing it. If the US ever attacked it would not even begin to matter if the countries dozen Su-30s got blown away in the air by F-22s or blown away on the ground by cruise missiles.
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Post by JointStrikeFighter »

Sidewinder wrote:
Venator wrote:It could be an airspace probe; if a high-performance aircraft like the Super Hornet was caught overflying an unfriendly country it would cause a bigger stir than an old plane like the Viking.
The Super Hornet was designed to have a lower radar signature, so it would be harder for air defense units to counter. If the US wanted to probe Venezuelam airspace, it would've used something more difficult to detect, target, and shoot down, i.e., NOT THE S-3.
The Super Hornet certainly does not have a lower radar signature, and any reduced radar signature it does have is going to be defeated anyway as soon as you stick any load on.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

The F-18E/F does in fact have a reduce radar signature compared to the F-18A/BC/D despite being physically larger. Relatively simple modifications to certain parts of an aircraft can substantially reduce radar cross section, it doesn’t give you stealth but it will make your ECM more effective and can still substantially reduce maximum detection range.
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Post by Phantasee »

"Plausible deniability, Mr. President."

Although I like Coffee's idea, I think the US was just taking a peek without having to admit it was taking a peek. Like what Wicked Pilot was implying, I think.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Phantasee wrote:"Plausible deniability, Mr. President."

Although I like Coffee's idea, I think the US was just taking a peek without having to admit it was taking a peek. Like what Wicked Pilot was implying, I think.
I wasn't implying anything, I was just stating the reality that gross navigational errors are unfortunately all to common among the military. Furthermore there is not enough information in the article to even determine if the Venezuelan airspace was penetrated to begin with.
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