What YOU would like to see covered in 40K analysis.

[Darksider]

The possible sterilization of some of the human population on Kronus may be explained by the fact that, despite living in peace with the Tau, the second an imperial force returned, many of Kronus' humans signed on to violently slaughter them all.

They Tau might have been a little paranoid or angry after that.

[Peptuck]

The possible sterilization of some of the human population on Kronus may be explained by the fact that, despite living in peace with the Tau, the second an imperial force returned, many of Kronus' humans signed on to violently slaughter them all.

They Tau might have been a little paranoid or angry after that.

Not just that, but there were numerous instances in the game's archives sections regarding humans rebelling against the Tau and even waging guerilla wars against them. I wouldn't be surprised if the Tau decided that they'd had enough of the humans' shit and deliberately marginalized them so they wouldn't have to deal with them if they got invaded a second time.

[Swindle1984]

Of course, it could be argued that many of those humans signed on with the Imperium not out of loyalty, but out of self-preservation; generally speaking, any disloyalty or heresy is, as far as the Imperium is concerned, to be utterly crushed.

I'm speaking from the impression I've gotten from other people, not personal experience. I haven't read any 40k books or played the game, though a friend did give me ten Space Marines minis.

[Cykeisme]

The Tau fleet supplement for Battlefleet Gothic has a pretty chilling (in a sense) scene whereby the captain of an Imperial Navy ship goes to parlay with a Tau Ethereal, only to find that his own ship has betrayed the Imperium and were having happyfun time with the Tau.
So, yeah, there are a lot of humans who actually get taken in by that Greater Good commie bullshit.

Note that on Kronus, despite the fact that the province archives mentioned a lot of scenes with humans rebelling (Commissar Valiance for the win), it's clear that there are a lot of humans who truly sided with the Tau.
In the event of a victory for one of the two human forces, those traitors are slaughtered along with the remaining population of xeno scum.

I'll pull the relevant archive text from Dark Crusade, if anyone who didn't play the game is interested.

[starfury]

The Tau fleet supplement for Battlefleet Gothic has a pretty chilling (in a sense) scene whereby the captain of an Imperial Navy ship goes to parlay with a Tau Ethereal, only to find that his own ship has betrayed the Imperium and were having happyfun time with the Tau.
So, yeah, there are a lot of humans who actually get taken in by that Greater Good commie bullshit.

Note that on Kronus, despite the fact that the province archives mentioned a lot of scenes with humans rebelling (Commissar Valiance for the win), it's clear that there are a lot of humans who truly sided with the Tau.
In the event of a victory for one of the two human forces, those traitors are slaughtered along with the remaining population of xeno scum.

You are almost arguing for the Tau to stop bothering with trying to offer a chance of surrender to the humans in this case and simply adopting the Imperium's method, Which they did in the "Rise of the Tau" Fic, with their Extintation Fleets wiping any who resists period instead of at trying to talk first

[starfury]

That and third Human Faction, Chaos is also more then willing to slaughter the Tau and the Human siding with them as well, don't be unhappy if Chaos or Nercons did the work as well.

[Cykeisme]

From what I've read, the Tau Empire (when they made first contact) thought that the Imperium of Man was a neighbouring empire of similar size.

When they realized the sheer size of the Imperium, their approach was to use Water Caste ambassadors to get Imperial Planetary Governors to be more receptive to trade with the Tau and ultimately ally with them.
It's a good plan, and normally I'd have to say that the Imperium's xenophobic policies are too extreme in some cases.
However, considering the Tau Empire's "alliances" with "member races" are more like annexation, I say fuck them.

All in all, it'll be less hypocritical if the Tau wiped out any races that resist rather than going about with this Greater Good nonsense.

Since the 40k timeline is more or less frozen (GW seems to be against progressing to WH41k), and since the Tau are a full-fledged army with lots of customers building Tau armies, they won't get crushed, but logically there'll eventually be a moment of downtime between Tyrannid Hive Fleets, Black Crusades and Ghazghkull's WAAAGH!!s when the Imperium assembles a Crusade Fleet of appropriate size (hundreds or thousands of ships, rather than a dozen) and breaks the Tau Empire up into smaller pieces (though, like Eldar Craftwords, these pieces will probably go unchecked for centuries more).

[NecronLord]

I thought the forced sterilization stuff was only rumors mentioned at the Tau Ending of Dark Crusade which I took to mean mostly Imperial Propaganda used to explain the decline of humans on Kronos.

Eh. It's not propaganda.

Of course given how bat-shit coco crispies they all went I don't blame the Tau if they did. After all if we had the power I am sure many of us would force sterilize a few segments of Earth's population.

They wanted to wipe out a population that accepted the tau'va and then rejected it. Take a look at the Eldar ending WRT to the Tau. As soon as fire-caste guns were removed by the Eldar, the humans immediately set about killing the aliens; they were obviously being cooerced anyway.

[Connor MacLeod]

Generally speaking (and I think I have yet to covera ll this) the Tau's current policy towards humanity seems to have changed compared to how they treat other races in some ways, largely because of humanity's reisstance (as well as the Imperium.) Most other small races they encountered were eager to join or easily conquered, so the more extreme measures we see against humanity don't seem to have been used there.

The primary means of assimilartion currently seems to be using diplomacy and trade to manipulate individual human worlds (esp in the Imperium) into casting off the Imperium and joining the tau. There is mention of this (I believe) in the Tau codexes (not sure I covered tht part yet) but also in the Rogue Trader novels (they play alot of human sytems off one another in order to conquer them.). We saw this (more positively as well) in the first Ciaphas Cain novel (there were humans worshipping the Greater Good, remember.)

In "Kill Team" (as well as "For the Emperor" ) we see that humanity and the Tau (and in the Fire Warriro novel, now that I think about it) have extensive diplomatic contact and even some assocations, but as we learn in Kill Team, the Tau were using the diplomacy largely to lure the humans into a trap (but were trapped in turn by a Ordos Xenos inquisitor, where they got fucked.) So they employ alot of trickery (as does the Imperium) in their struggles. Taros (smething I've yet to cover) is another example of a world won from the Imperium primariyl through manipulation and trickery using trade and diplomacy.

Military conquest is still used, though mainly when the opportunity arises (ie when the Imperium is too busy to bother with the Tau) because the Tau almost certainly know the Imperium is bigger (At least by tyhe evidence I've seen) and trty to avoid making themselves more than a minor nuisanance. So far, it seems to be working.. though in the scale of things chipping away dozens or scores of worlds (temporarily, perhaps) is not a significant loss to the Imperium given they have tens of millions if not billions of worlds. And most of them better developed than anything the Tau has taken. The Tau dont even know about Hives, much less have attacked one (good luck there.)

Conquered worlds seem to have varied. Some (like the ones in Rogue Trader books) actually seem to have been promised good treatment.. while others.. Cities of Death outlines a world named Poila during the Tau's second sphere expansion where Brightsword invaded a planet while the Imperium were busy with the Tyranids and began "Exteriminating" the population.

Then we already knew the Tau use orbital bombardment/exterminatus on worlds that are recalcitrant, so things like forced sterilization aren't really that much different.

I do suspect at least partly that another reason why humanity is singled out is that humanity can be alot more openly treacherous (Well so are the Kroot, but they are evidently better at fooling the Tau.) than any other race the Tau have encountered or conquered.

[Connor MacLeod]

There's also the fact that there are a huge number of factors in the Tau's favor even aside from the fact the Imperium is too busy to swat them and they're sneaky manipulative fucks. The warp (as the Rogue Trader novels show) is pretty damn funky in that area of space, and the territory they encompass is also rather densely clustered (making their slow as fuck FTL alot more reasonable.)

Unless the tau develop their "own" form of FTL comms or some new drive (or have it invented fro them, or steal it from seomeone else) they probably won't expand much beyond hundreds of worlds. If they do, they'll probably have some pretty hefty shift in government - my guess is that you'd end up seeing more "Farsight" type Enclaves, even with an Ethereal I suspect. They'd be more of a confederacy than an Empire at that point.

[Connor MacLeod]

Another idea might be looking at 'rare' technologies and determining just how uncommon they are, whether the Imperium is still capable of producing them etc. This could include teleporters, cyclonic torpedoes and all the other bits and pieces that boost the Imperium's capabilities considerably but may in fact be very unusual.

This would be very interesting.

Also, when I've the time, possibly later this week, I'll try and update the 'Grand 40K Quantification Thread' to index Connor's work.

Maybe its better to "sticky" some sort of link to other resources, and just unite it all under the "Grand 40K quantification" thread. I really ought to go back and fix some of my own stuff too, but I feel a bit lazy.

And to be blunt, the Misc thread nad starships thread aren't all that well organized.. I think it'd be anightmare to do so.

Perhaps its something for more than one person?

[Connor MacLeod]

Quick and Dirty BFG

Lances: Multiple heavy beam weapons focused into a single beam. Burns through armour real good.[/quote

Weapons Batteries: short range missiles, macro cannon, rail guns, lasers, plasma weapons, fusion beamers, particle beams, gravitic pulsars, etcetera. In other words, lots of fucking big guns fire en masse.

I tend to think of it as being the following: "Dorsal" (or turreted) weapons and "Broadside" weapons.. there are of course prow wepaons but those are usually torps or nova cannon, so I tend to discount them.

Turret weapons (which can include lances, bombardment cannon and I imagine other railgusn, and probably even some other forms of weapons battery) I see as the "big guns" - they're fewer in number, but alot more powerful and have greater range and punch. They're also alot slower (Because they're bigger.)

Broadside weapons are usually smaller, shorter ranged, and less powerful generally, but also much more numerous (and diverse). THey can also serve "dual purpose" roles (anti ship as well as poitn defense.) Though of course, coordination of them is also a bitch.

Note that while I Say that broadside weapons are usually smaller, this isnt awlays the case. Broadside lances I think are roughly as powerful as the turrets (Gothic class cruiser as an example).. and I've seen short stories give Imperial cruisers dozens of "big" guns (One of the "Let the GAlaxy burn short stories")

On the other hand, there are sourcese giving frigets and cruisers a mere "hundreds" of guns, and cruisers "thousands".. so again i think it depends on scale.

Standard Imperial torpedo is 200 feet long. An Apocalypse class has a munitions scattering warhead with 128 submunitions. Each submunition is 5 gigatons.

I dont remember how big the Apocalypse (or were they Hellfire?) class were, and I've heard between 112 and 122 munitions.

On the other hand, they were merely nukes, and plasma warheads are more poweful. And multi-staged. And the propulsion system can contribute to the destructive effects. And they also behave as kinetic impactors. And shield-piercing capabilities.

And, as I recall, it was three battlecruisers carrying em, and each had 100 of them.

I don't suppsoe anyone has this quote available from the WD article? It might have been a translation issue.

[Connor MacLeod]

Some attempt at reconciling Eldar fluff and capabilities would be nice, but there isn't much in the way of Eldar novels to look through. Farseer is the only Eldar-centric one I can think of, and I have no idea if they ever made the (obviously foreshadowed) sequel.

I can do at least some of the Codex-oriented stuff, since I Have that sitting on my HD (I think.. I'd have to check) but the novels would take some time. I have Farseer, and there's Goto's Eldar Prophecy for whtaver its worth, but I haven't read either yet. Othe than that, alot of novels (Dawn of War, the Deathwatch novels, various short stories, and a few other books) tend to deal with the Eldar mainly in parrt.) and those only will be on a case-by-case basis.

As for the other requests:

Titans: I have some fluff material oriented on Titans and their capabilities (I think I might have already covered some of it) but most of it tends to be scattered, and it like some of the Eldar stuff is goingt o be "case by case" (IE Eisenhorn novel, Taros campaign, etc.) I'm frankly deciding to wait on the Abnett Titan novel before I even consider that.

Life in the Imperium - again you're mainly goign to get this in drips and tidbits, since alot of this is largely tied to specific novels. Further problems are that, quite simply, the Imperium is alot more diverse/less standardized at a "planetay" level to get anything aside from a very broad scope of things. At best you MIGHT get some consistency in Hive Worlds or Forge Worlds, but for the most part the answer would be "They suck". or onboard warships, and Necromunda is as good an example as any.

The best source (as someone said) will be Dark Heresy, and I'll probably cover that eventually. (I've been looking through it when time and opportunity allows, at least. There's ALOT of good stuff in there.)

I'd just suggest someone starrt a thread.. and people (myself included, but others who probably would have a better idea) can just contirbute their insights and refrences.

Eldar I already covered. I'll do the codexes, and then the novels when I can (but I'll consider making them a priority.)

Tau I'm still leaning towards finishing up Tau stuff, so I probably will cover that. Technology will be upcoming (though I havent read the Fire Warriro novel and may not for awhile yet) from the codex stuff and probably some of Kill Team and the Rogue Trader novels. Society, and other stuff.. I'll try to dig some of that out, as well as interactions with other races.

Guard stuff I can make it a point to cover Necropolis and honour Guard, but thats as far as I've gone on Gaunt's Ghosts (I took a break there) I can cover the armour stuff during Honur Guard.. I have considered doing a separate IG/SM tank/vehicle analysis thread as well.. I may do that at the same time too. Tech-wise you'll see alot of varaition there too, but I can try.

The Krieg in particualr.. that'll have to wait til they get their own novel, Warriors of Ultramar, and/or IA5.

Imperial Technology - again like society, this will be a case by case basis, since tech levels can vary dramatically, cept in certain cases like Forrge and Hive worlds (which seem pretty up-teched.. Necromunda as an example.) Again some of this may have to wait for me to handle Dark Heresy.

Starship guns is pretty fragmented and "case by case". I've hinted at some of this in my reply to IO, ,but the best sources are Warriors of Utlramar (hundreds of weapons on a Frigate) Dark ADeptus (chaos cruiser witht housands of guns broadside) and the "Let the Galaxy Burn" (a cruiser had 40 cannon, presumably large ones.) That'll be complicated, ,but I do admit it is something I've considered.

Gun size can varry.. the smallest I've seen for projectile was hauling a "mulit ton" shell, or fired projectiles "three times the size of a man" Whiel others have thrown building sized (large or small), skyscraper sized (I think), or shells as massive as land raiders, ,or 3x the size of a tank (depending on source.) Some are implied even bigger. It largely depends on the placeement and function.

RAre Imperium technologies Again, I can try.. alot of this is bits and pieces so it will take some time. Cyclonics and Virus bombs seem fairly common at least, but still restricted in use. Of course, there are many "varieties" of virus and cyclonic bombardment too, ,so the rarity/commonality will also depend on the type. (the general consensus seems the technobabble ones are least common.)

[Peptuck]

The Tau dont even know about Hives, much less have attacked one (good luck there.)

I would pull up the page if I could (the site's gone now) but the Medusa V campaign did mention the Tau attacking several Hives as part of a campaign of distraction to keep the Imperium away from their data collection arrays.

[Maxentius]

I can do at least some of the Codex-oriented stuff, since I Have that sitting on my HD (I think.. I'd have to check) but the novels would take some time. I have Farseer, and there's Goto's Eldar Prophecy for whtaver its worth, but I haven't read either yet. Othe than that, alot of novels (Dawn of War, the Deathwatch novels, various short stories, and a few other books) tend to deal with the Eldar mainly in parrt.) and those only will be on a case-by-case basis.

I have a few pertinent quotes from the 2E Eldar Codex, mostly pertaining to weapons and armor, if you'd like them. I also plucked through White Dwarf 219, the WD where the Fire Prism was given rules in 40k, and transcribed some interesting things from there. I can post or PM the relevant information, if you like.

[Connor MacLeod]

I would pull up the page if I could (the site's gone now) but the Medusa V campaign did mention the Tau attacking several Hives as part of a campaign of distraction to keep the Imperium away from their data collection arrays.

"distraction" isnt the same as conquest. Distraction is a big part of Tau philosophy and it wouldn't require actually going into the hives. I'm talking about actually conquering one. One of the things Kill Team covers is that a Fire Warrior disbelieved that Imeprial Hive Cities/Worlds actaully existed.

Using Necromunda as a benchmark (and Dark Heresy seems to follow that trend) your average hive is probably one of the most militarized structures in the Imperium Nevermidn the "legitimate" military or militia forces, there are gangers who wield bolters, heavy stubbers/autocannon, grenade ad missile launchers, and assault weapons of all kinds. Hell some gangs are basically just a kind of militia. considering that on a low end you can have "billions" of people in a Hive..

Again, I'd like to see the Tau take one without reducing it to slag first.

[Connor MacLeod]

I have a few pertinent quotes from the 2E Eldar Codex, mostly pertaining to weapons and armor, if you'd like them. I also plucked through White Dwarf 219, the WD where the Fire Prism was given rules in 40k, and transcribed some interesting things from there. I can post or PM the relevant information, if you like.

Sure, although I think if I do the Eldar stuff, i'll start a new thread. so PM might be better. (or quote it here.) Like I said I have Eldar quotes of my own sitting on the HD from the codexes, I dont think I actually wrote up any analysis yet.

[Maxentius]

I just PM'd it to you. If anyone else in this thread wants I can likewise PM it; I would not want to derail this topic with a sudden influx of Eldar fluff.

[Imperial Overlord]

I don't suppsoe anyone has this quote available from the WD article? It might have been a translation issue.

Actually, I read it in the Space Hulk rulebook. You're correct, of course, in your general statements about BFG ships as long as we are talking about Imperial warships. Orks and Tau, for example, make use of similar weapons but mount them in different arrays. There are Chapter Approved stats for submunition scattering torpedoes at the Port Maw site. They are, in general, inferior at damaging capital ships but can be effective at killing ordinance.

Space Hulk rulebook, Page 3

Standing off at a distance of two parsecs were the Gothic class Battlecruisers, Intolerance, Indestructability, and Righteous Power. Each ship carried a payload of one hundred Hellfire class nuclear missiles. The payload of a Hellfire is one hundred and twelve sub-munitions, each one with a five giga-tonne warhead. If the vanguard failed, the vessel would be fusion bombed, down to a fine powder.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Another idea might be looking at 'rare' technologies and determining just how uncommon they are, whether the Imperium is still capable of producing them etc. This could include teleporters, cyclonic torpedoes and all the other bits and pieces that boost the Imperium's capabilities considerably but may in fact be very unusual.

I like this idea.

Heck, just the Ciaphas Cain novels make the Imperium out to be much more high-tech than one would otherwise believe from the flavor texts. The Traitor's Hand and Duty Calls both feature gratuitous amounts of hover vehicles, shuttles and fleets of civilian ships and merchant vessels. On acknowledged backwaters. Augmetics seem quite common, as well.

[Peptuck]

Another idea might be looking at 'rare' technologies and determining just how uncommon they are, whether the Imperium is still capable of producing them etc. This could include teleporters, cyclonic torpedoes and all the other bits and pieces that boost the Imperium's capabilities considerably but may in fact be very unusual.

I like this idea.

Heck, just the Ciaphas Cain novels make the Imperium out to be much more high-tech than one would otherwise believe from the flavor texts. The Traitor's Hand and Duty Calls both feature gratuitous amounts of hover vehicles, shuttles and fleets of civilian ships and merchant vessels. On acknowledged backwaters. Augmetics seem quite common, as well.

Not to mention how they show the Imperial Guard is a competent, modern military force, flying in the face of people who try to paint them as some kind of WWI-level military organization.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Another idea might be looking at 'rare' technologies and determining just how uncommon they are, whether the Imperium is still capable of producing them etc. This could include teleporters, cyclonic torpedoes and all the other bits and pieces that boost the Imperium's capabilities considerably but may in fact be very unusual.

I like this idea.

Heck, just the Ciaphas Cain novels make the Imperium out to be much more high-tech than one would otherwise believe from the flavor texts. The Traitor's Hand and Duty Calls both feature gratuitous amounts of hover vehicles, shuttles and fleets of civilian ships and merchant vessels. On acknowledged backwaters. Augmetics seem quite common, as well.

Not to mention how they show the Imperial Guard is a competent, modern military force, flying in the face of people who try to paint them as some kind of WWI-level military organization.

Well, so does Dan Abnett, he makes a point of showing trench style warfare of WW1-2 level centralized, slow, beurucratic commands and having the regular IG go "Antiquated backwater idiots". (In the Ghosts series, Eisenhorn, etc'. It's even more pronounced in his modern stuff as well as an arguably even greater "sense/feeling" of scale).

[Shroom Man 777]

The thing is, though, Cain's guys don't have night vision goggles

[Swindle1984]

What kind of weapons and tech do the Tau give to humans who willingly join up with them?

[Black Admiral]

What kind of weapons and tech do the Tau give to humans who willingly join up with them?

IIRC it's pretty much come-as-you-are; I might be wrong, but I certainly don't recall them giving out much, if anything, to their vassals.