Justforfun000 wrote:
I was referring more to "western" herbs and the major companies that have been selling them for decades. Asian/Indian herbs and their production have always been manufactured and processed under a far lesser standard of quality then North America or Europe as a whole.
Except that TCM and Indian medicines are traditional medicines which have even longer histories of usuage than European medicines. Thus, using your argument, they SHOULD be safer.
They're not.
Furthermore, if you wish to discuss about European "herbs", remember my previous example arsenic? I also recall reading about how some herbs are contraindicated for people with certain cardiac conditions.
It's these ones that people are concerned about and I do not think it would be fair to pass a bill like C-51, remove ALL of these from the shelves until 'someone' puts them through the drug trials, and ban consumers from purchasing or possessing these until they become approved. That's the entire crux of my point, and the other people in Canada who does not feel the government should have the right to retroactively re-classify these particular type of products as "investigational drugs".
The law in question is stating that you CAN"T make thereauptic claims, can't sell them as thereauptic devices unless the research is there. There's absolutely nothing to prevent you from just OWNING them. Look at Henna and Hemp shampoo.
It's specifically attributed to herbs alone and that's why I was looking for evidence explaining why herbalists feel that they ARE unique and not as simple as drugs.
And for the last time, stop attributing something special. Herbs are still chemicals.
No I don't believe that that's correct. The size of the dose does not seem to have a direct correlation to harmful potential. For example the effects of licorice as a canker sore treatment, (brand new study just out today in the news), shows great efficacy with no serious sides.
Serious, fucking distortion of the science. What your article is saying that a fixed, regulated dose of licorce extract works to soothe canker sores. (Whoopee doo. Here's a new hint. Try honey. It works well too. Although my current remedy is Wu Bi Gao, a mixture of the above and various stuff)
Nowhere in that article does it state that herbs have NO TOXIC DOSE. If you wish to discuss the science, the issue would be the gap between the thereauptic range and the toxic range. Vitamin A and Paracetemol is a perfect example of this. The gap between thereauptic range and toxicity is extremely wide.
Now do you get the point?
Ma Huang is an herb that needs a bit more caution. It is weaker then Ephedrine as an isolate, true, but it is an herb that leans a bit more towards the drug side in comparison of action, especially with symptomatic relief of congestion.
Based on WHAT FUCKING SCIENCE? The reason why Ma Huang works is because it has various active ingredients, the most active being an alkaloid named ephedra.
Obviously I'm not trying to suggest all herbs should be exempt from scrutiny.
No. You're trying to suggest that herbs are a special group, not subject to chemistry and physical laws simply because they're herbs.
Get it through your head. They're CHEMICALS. No different from drugs.
We don't need to create a false dilemma here where we choose between all herbs being regulated as drugs or none of them being controlled whatsoever.
Why not? They're CHEMICALS. Definition of drugs= Chemical which cause a chemical action in the body. Medicine(or medical drug)= Used to cause a thereauptic action.
Why on god green earth are you attempting to insert a blatently false barrier?
I'm saying that the onus should be on the government to provide reasons to proscribe certain herbs based on evidence of toxicity or misuse. I don't believe the default should be on someone in the industry to prove the herb is safe and pharmaceutically as effective as a drug through millions of investment dollars that they will NOT be able to patent for themselves.
And the Bush adminstration failure in war, environmentalism, family planning and every single major domestic policy hasn't told you how stupid this approach can be?
Do you even know that this was the EXACT, SAME, FUCKING excuse the drug industry pulled back in the 19th century? You're refighting a dead and buried battle.
Yes! They are an entire plant and sometimes food is our medicine.
And? Vitamin A has a toxic range. Its fat soluble. Vitamin C doesn't, but the only reason it doesn't is because its water soluble and thus, any excess is excreted through the kidney easily(Which would beg the question of what happens when an ESRF patient takes huge doses of Vitamin C)
Do you even know that food itself has side effects and toxic effects? Seal blubber and liver(Or is that polar bear?) is the perfect example of this.
For side effects, look at something called indigestion and flatulence. Similarly, diet itself can worsen certain conditions. For example, caffeine itself will cause gastric ulcers. Thus, a person taking caffeine to help protect against liver failure will run the risk of gastric ulcers. Oops.
Milk is another example. A person with colic pain is advised not to take dairy products, cause it cause increased cramp pain.
Adverse reaction? Allergic reaction, or lactose intolerance. Dairy is the most common, but there's also G6PD.
Welcome to the world of science. Stop trying to treat herbs as if they're aren't chemicals.
Herbalists suggest for most diseases, there is an herb and while we may not have every single thing lined up for all conditions, they have been fairly accurate at finding something to aid most human conditions. There is no doubt that the planty world has many things to offer us in treating our bodies and their disorders. One would almost think it was 'designed' this way to have a growing pharmacopeia in the world to meet our needs.
And since a good majority of our pharmateciual arsenal comes from plants and the natural world, how on earth is this DIFFERENT?
Again, what are their special chemical actions that they can somehow skip ALL the chemical issues? Let's try something.
Hypertension. Why would herbs have no side effects? Are you attempting to claim that hypotension would NOT be a possible side effect, even though this is its EXACT ACTION?
Are you attempting to claim that nature is so precise that the exact receptors which cause the desired reaction exists ONLY at the target site and the target site only?
As I've said before, herbalists profess that herbs as a whole have a method of action that is more comprehensive and demonstrably less inclined to side effects when used as an entire product with the active ingredients located and standardized, (like Milk thistle at 80% Silymarin, calculated as Silybin), compared to isolating and extracting the prime ingredient they believe is mainly the active principle. Supposedly previous attempts to do this has demonstrated exactly that. Some degree of action, but a much higher incidence of side effects and no suggestion of an adaptogenic property any longer that would temper it's action in the human body based on your needs.
Tell you what. Show the science then.
This is utter and total bullshit. You're trying to suggest that herbs are so specially tailored that the exact same receptors on other target sites would not be affected, and only the desired target site would be. TO make things even more funny, you claim that dosage isn't a major issue and toxicity/adverse reaction isn't a major problem, suggesting that somehow, the target receptor/cell knows exactly how much chemicals to absorb and uptake , violating the mathematics of diffusion and concentrations. Not to mention different bodies metabolism and conditions.
But this does not mean that our current dictionary classification is CORRECT. It is probably incomplete because to start with, almost anything can fall under the category of a drug when taking the simple definition of Merriam's Dicitonary : (3): a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body.
Geez. Guess what. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A DRUG.
That's why sniffing glue is considered drug abuse, or substance abuse depending on legalase. However, its STILL drug dependence and undergoes basic chemical reactions.
Other's have more specific definitions, but that is one of them listed above and it is VERY broad.
Please don't pull an idiot on us and try rewriting dictionary definitions.
But the point here is in many cases the "HOW" is already done for you. Herbs are grown into a useful combination by virtue of their nature. However to be fair sometimes you DO need to remove some other constituents....Ricin from Castor Oil is one thing that comes to mind..
This is NOT a creationist forum. You're simply suggesting that taking 85% of junk and 15% of desired material is better than taking 50% of active material and 50% of holding/junk material.
The argument may not be any different, but the fact remains that they CAN patent their drug product once trials are complete and this is not the same for natural products.
And we been through this before. The products itself can be patented, just not the basic material. That is no basic problem in and as of itself. Aspirin if anything shows how this is a nonsensical argument, even if we don't venture into the beauty industry.
With no clear evidence on what or who was responsible, I'd hardly say this was a convincing anectdote. Especially since some feels he mau have been deliberately killed.
Right. So, a conspiracy theory is infinitely more palpatable than the fact that TCM has been shown to have high levels of mercury in it? Are you fucking insane?
Let's compare the facts shall we?
We know that TCM have toxic levels of mercury, because we're faced and licked that problem in the nineties(Well, if you're not in China). Huo Yuanjia was taking doses of TCMs that is historically known to have high levels of mercury.
His symptoms match that of mercury poisoning.
What's next? Hitler survived and is hiding 10,000 leagues underneath the North Pole?
Because the drugs have MUCH more likelihood of side effects. Many herbs taken to lower cholesterol like Garlic, do not have anywhere NEAR the sides commonly found in drugs like Lipitor. Same with taking celery salt for high blood pressure. Observe:
Let's ignore other potential actions and take it on its face value.(Fibre itself is known for reducing cholesterol and BP).
Whos to say if you don't OVERDOSE on the chemicals you won't get the same side effects of anti-hypertensives? Hypotension? Who's to say that you won't need to titrate the dose once you make the action and dose more potent? And note. Its NOT THE WHOLE HERB. Its a SINGLE, ACTIVE, INGREDIENT.
So I'm not just saying that whole herbs are in many cases different because of the concept of adaptogenic capability, but overall in MOST cases are far more likely to be non-toxic even when used at a dosage that is clearly therapeutic. It may not be magic, but it's a wonder of nature.
Excuse me but I'm not impressed. I have a whole array of drugs in the medicine trolley that is therapeautic without being toxic. As for side effects, given that herbal remedies such as Senna, Glucosamine HAS SIDE EFFECTS, I believe its more that you're unaware of the potential side effects or more likely, the research and trials haven't been done yet. Which this new legislation will push manufacturers to do.
Oh wait. You forgot that Senna and Glucosamine, used by many to treat common conditions have side effects don't you? Infact, other than the risk of liver failure(an adverse reaction, not a side effect), Glucosamine has virtually the same side effects as conventional NSAIDs used to treat arthritic pain. The way of avoiding the side effects are different but its using conventional biochemistry, (glucosamine is changed to powder, NSAIDs are titrated and taken with an adjucant. Although I see no reason why Glucosamine can't be taken with the same adjucants, although albeit, maxalon is overkill to treat simple indigestion)
I canot answer this. I can only point out what others have discovered as conclusions, not the full mechanisms of action. But this is not much different then many drugs. They STILL do not fully understand how aspirin works and it's one of the most well-studied and commonly used drugs in existence today.
No one disputes that. However, no one claims that aspirin has some magical property that causes it to violate ALL OTHER CHEMISTRY AND PHYSICAL PROPERTIES!
Get that in your god damned SKULL. I'm NOT DISPUTING THE POTENTIAL EFFECTIVNESS. I'm disputing your specific claims that herbs are different, because they're NOT DRUGS. Its NONSENSE. They're BOTH CHEMICALS.
Well if I did I'm sorry, no they are not the ONLY things used for preventative, but they do tend towards a much larger percentage of that category then most pharmaceutical drugs.
Based only on your limited and twisted meaning of prophylaxis.
This is true, but the argument here is that all of these drugs tend to have unwanted sides and in many cases can be harmful albeit at an acceptable risk to benefit ratio, whereas many herbs are touted to be EQUALLY as effective sometimes, and yet far less likely to be harmful or rife in sides. This in many cases still needs to be proven absolutely, but most preliminary or intermediate studies seem to bear this out very well for most herbs.
Read above. Herbs are chemicals too.
I enjoy your points and you really do get me thinking a lot more in depth about this in any event. I've always admired your posts, so by all means if you still think I'm missing something, hammer away at me. Maybe you'll get me to change my mind, but so far I really do see this from the side of the people wanting to use herbs they feel are safe and effective without government interference causing a dramatic withdrawal of hundreds of products.
Freedom of choice is also used by smokers as an argument.
Furthermore, we're not disputing the potential effectiveness. No one here has. What I'm disputing is your nonsensical argument that herbs should be treated differently from drugs because somehow, they're not chemicals.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
