Vast cracks appear in Arctic ice

[[R_H]]

BBC

Dramatic evidence of the break-up of the Arctic ice-cap has emerged from research during an expedition by the Canadian military.

Scientists travelling with the troops found major new fractures during an assessment of the state of giant ice shelves in Canada's far north.

The team found a network of cracks that stretched for more than 10 miles (16km) on Ward Hunt, the area's largest shelf.

The fate of the vast ice blocks is seen as a key indicator of climate change.

One of the expedition's scientists, Derek Mueller of Trent University, Ontario, told me: "I was astonished to see these new cracks.

"It means the ice shelf is disintegrating, the pieces are pinned together like a jigsaw but could float away," Dr Mueller explained.

According to another scientist on the expedition, Dr Luke Copland of the University of Ottawa, the new cracks fit into a pattern of change in the Arctic.

"We're seeing very dramatic changes; from the retreat of the glaciers, to the melting of the sea ice.

"We had 23% less (sea ice) last year than we've ever had, and what's happening to the ice shelves is part of that picture."

When ice shelves break apart, they drift offshore into the ocean as "ice islands", transforming the very geography of the coastline.

Last year, I was part of a BBC team that joined Dr Mueller and Dr Copland as they carried out the first research on Ayles Ice Island, an iceberg the size of Manhattan.

It has since split into two, each vast chunk of ice now 400 miles (640km) south of its original position.

The rapid changes in the Arctic have reignited disputes over territory.

The Canadian military's expedition was billed as a "sovereignty patrol", the lines of snowmobiles flying Canadian flags in a display of control.

After the record Arctic melting last year, all eyes are now on what happens to the sea ice this summer.

Although its maximum extent last winter was slightly greater than the year before, it was still below the long-term average.

Woah

[Fire Fly]

The more research there is, the more doubtful I am that the climate crisis will ever be solved. Scientists are consistently underestimating the rate at which warming is happening and political will is so weak. No one wants to take the first step and everyone wants everyone else to burden the costs. It feels too little too late now.

[Broomstick]

It no longer matters. We are past the point of no return, and have been for some time. We can not stop climate change, at this point we can only adapt.

[Darth Nostril]

How much of this is human caused anyway? We hear so much about CO2 emissions and cows farting to pump up the methane levels, but the ecomentalists never release the figures of natural CO2 emisions
It's pure hubris to believe the religious twaddle bandied about as if it were scientifically proven fact, it simply isn't, we've got estimates and projections and theories and hypothoses .... what we don't have are serious hard facts
We, the human race, simply do not have enough evidence to back up most of the religious mania peddled by the ecomentalists
You can wave "hottest year in a century" around til you are blue in the face, simple fact is we don't have accurate readings going back more than a few centuries, the climate patterns on this planet are measured in milleniak, we haven't been around long enough as a sapient species to observe just what the fuck goes on
Oh and gaseous emissions are pretty much neglible compared to the thermal output of the sun ..... which has so far not produced much in the way of sunspots ... which is something of a bugger considering we need their thermal output to stop this planet from turning into a fricken icecube

[Zablorg]

How much of this is human caused anyway? We hear so much about CO2 emissions and cows farting to pump up the methane levels, but the ecomentalists never release the figures of natural CO2 emisions
It's pure hubris to believe the religious twaddle bandied about as if it were scientifically proven fact, it simply isn't, we've got estimates and projections and theories and hypothoses .... what we don't have are serious hard facts
We, the human race, simply do not have enough evidence to back up most of the religious mania peddled by the ecomentalists
You can wave "hottest year in a century" around til you are blue in the face, simple fact is we don't have accurate readings going back more than a few centuries, the climate patterns on this planet are measured in milleniak, we haven't been around long enough as a sapient species to observe just what the fuck goes on

You're right, we have been pumping out proportionately less than the rest of the world. That's just the point, which is that the amount that we have been releasing has been the turning point. We've been seeing a trend between CO2 levels and climate for years now, and it doesn't matter if it's just the beginning of the trend, the point is that it's there.

Oh and gaseous emissions are pretty much neglible compared to the thermal output of the sun .....

Just goes to show the impact we've made, doesn't it?



I'm afraid delusion is not a stable way to help you get through the day, my friend.

[Patrick Degan]

How much of this is human caused anyway? We hear so much about CO2 emissions and cows farting to pump up the methane levels, but the ecomentalists never release the figures of natural CO2 emisions
It's pure hubris to believe the religious twaddle bandied about as if it were scientifically proven fact, it simply isn't, we've got estimates and projections and theories and hypothoses .... what we don't have are serious hard facts
We, the human race, simply do not have enough evidence to back up most of the religious mania peddled by the ecomentalists
You can wave "hottest year in a century" around til you are blue in the face, simple fact is we don't have accurate readings going back more than a few centuries, the climate patterns on this planet are measured in milleniak, we haven't been around long enough as a sapient species to observe just what the fuck goes on
Oh and gaseous emissions are pretty much neglible compared to the thermal output of the sun ..... which has so far not produced much in the way of sunspots ... which is something of a bugger considering we need their thermal output to stop this planet from turning into a fricken icecube

Another Kool-Aid drinker, I see.

[Kanastrous]

Warm Kool-Aid.

[Warsie]

Well those floating city ideas and the like will be useful quicker than thought of.

I'd say this info is old, but it says arctic ice

[The Duchess of Zeon]

How much of this is human caused anyway? We hear so much about CO2 emissions and cows farting to pump up the methane levels, but the ecomentalists never release the figures of natural CO2 emisions
It's pure hubris to believe the religious twaddle bandied about as if it were scientifically proven fact, it simply isn't, we've got estimates and projections and theories and hypothoses .... what we don't have are serious hard facts
We, the human race, simply do not have enough evidence to back up most of the religious mania peddled by the ecomentalists
You can wave "hottest year in a century" around til you are blue in the face, simple fact is we don't have accurate readings going back more than a few centuries, the climate patterns on this planet are measured in milleniak, we haven't been around long enough as a sapient species to observe just what the fuck goes on
Oh and gaseous emissions are pretty much neglible compared to the thermal output of the sun ..... which has so far not produced much in the way of sunspots ... which is something of a bugger considering we need their thermal output to stop this planet from turning into a fricken icecube

50% of global warming cannot be accounted for by natural causes. That is objective fact, not personal subjective opinion like your long rambling screed.

[Darth Nostril]

Another Kool-Aid drinker, I see.

I'm an agnostic you twat

Oh and get with the picture, it's called climate change now, if it was global warming then both ice caps would be melting instead of the northern cap breaking up and the southern cap growing

It annoys the fuck out of me when I see otherwise intelligent people harping on about this, yes there are environmental problems just over the horizon, very real problems we should be worrying about, instead we're just pissing into the wind about carbon footprints
Why do governments bother about this? two words .... Carbon Taxes .... they just invented a brand new way of screwing us out of even more money
We are pumping out millions of tons of toxic shit every year into the air, land and seas, the human population is growing every year, as it grows we need to produce more food, the available land soon won't be able to produce that quantity, especially as the population grows to cover once arable land
We are going to need the oceans to provide for the population ..... right now we are literally pumping out shit that is killing off marine life and over fishing whats left
This concerns me a hell of a lot more than nebulous bollocks about man made global warming
It really is hubris to believe we can wipe out all life on this planet, if we act now ... maybe we can save our own species from it's own stupidity
Maybe

50% of global warming cannot be accounted for by natural causes. That is objective fact, not personal subjective opinion like your long rambling screed.

Sources? Got anything to back that up? Oh and it's climate change now, global warming went out of fashion amongst the climatistas when the planet refused to conform to their dogma

[Patrick Degan]

Another Kool-Aid drinker, I see.

I'm an agnostic you twat

The metaphor still applies, asswipe.

Oh and get with the picture, it's called climate change now, if it was global warming then both ice caps would be melting instead of the northern cap breaking up and the southern cap growing

As if the name of the phenomenon has any relevance to the price of eggs. And you have a very simpleminded view of the situation. But then that's no surprise.

It annoys the fuck out of me when I see otherwise intelligent people harping on about this, yes there are environmental problems just over the horizon, very real problems we should be worrying about, instead we're just pissing into the wind about carbon footprints
Why do governments bother about this? two words .... Carbon Taxes .... they just invented a brand new way of screwing us out of even more money

Poor baby. Maybe you'd do better to shut the fuck up about a thing you clearly have not studied beyond getting Rush's soundbyte version of the problem before you weigh in on discussions regarding GW.

We are pumping out millions of tons of toxic shit every year into the air, land and seas, the human population is growing every year, as it grows we need to produce more food, the available land soon won't be able to produce that quantity, especially as the population grows to cover once arable land
We are going to need the oceans to provide for the population ..... right now we are literally pumping out shit that is killing off marine life and over fishing whats left
This concerns me a hell of a lot more than nebulous bollocks about man made global warming

Bollocks, gracie? Then why is the North Pole melting? Why is the snowcap on Mt. Kilimanjaro melting? Why are Deleware-sized chunks of the Antartic ice-shelf calving off into the sea? What the fuck makes your wholly unfounded opinion worth more than nearly two decades of scientific analysis into the dynamics of global warming and which has reached peer-reviewed consensus on the conclusion that human industrial activity has triggered a tipping-point phenomenon which is magnifying all other factors beyond those explicable by natural causes?

50% of global warming cannot be accounted for by natural causes. That is objective fact, not personal subjective opinion like your long rambling screed.

Sources? Got anything to back that up? Oh and it's climate change now, global warming went out of fashion amongst the climatistas when the planet refused to conform to their dogma

Start eating, asshole. I suspect this to be the first of many supporting references which will be linked to this thread.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Another source, for the shit-eating little ass:

British Antarctic Survey report on CBC news reporting on the collapse of the Wilkins Ice Shelf.

Looks like the Antarctic ice cover is shrinking almost as fast as that in the north, you little lying dumbfuck.

[Anguirus]

Why can't we get a retard who at least knows that periods go at the end of sentences?

[Darth Nostril]

Okay that just totally derailed what I was going to say
Sorry but whether my brother survived what seems to be a minor heart attack is somewhat more important to me right now.

[Singular Intellect]

Okay that just totally derailed what I was going to say
Sorry but whether my brother survived what seems to be a minor heart attack is somewhat more important to me right now.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it ridiculasly annoying when some people bring up personal tragedies during a discussion they are losing, as if that's some sort of excuse or get out of jail free card for being an idiot and wrong?

Frankly, it disgusts me that anyone would use the hardship or pain of their family in any discussion, unless it's directly related to the topic at hand.

It's utterly shameful.

[FSTargetDrone]

We are pumping out millions of tons of toxic shit every year into the air, land and seas, the human population is growing every year, as it grows we need to produce more food, the available land soon won't be able to produce that quantity, especially as the population grows to cover once arable land
We are going to need the oceans to provide for the population ..... right now we are literally pumping out shit that is killing off marine life and over fishing whats left
This concerns me a hell of a lot more than nebulous bollocks about man made global warming
It really is hubris to believe we can wipe out all life on this planet, if we act now ... maybe we can save our own species from it's own stupidity
Maybe

So, wait, you acknowledge that human activity (pollution) has a detrimental effect on life in the ocean, but you deny that the same human-created pollution leads to the warming of the atmosphere?

Humanity cannot easily wipe out "all life" on the planet, but we can certainly make the quality of life miserable for everything and everyone. We have no real predators aside from ourselves, our numbers go unchecked, we consume resources like there's no tomorrow and if we continue on this mindless journey of ever-increasing numbers, things will continue to get Very Bad for a lot of people.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it ridiculasly annoying when some people bring up personal tragedies during a discussion they are losing, as if that's some sort of excuse or get out of jail free card for being an idiot and wrong?

Frankly, it disgusts me that anyone would use the hardship or pain of their family in any discussion, unless it's directly related to the topic at hand.

It's utterly shameful.

Yeah, it's a cowardly move. If he's really experienced a family tragedy, all condolences to him. If not, he's a jackass for bailing out like that instead of continuing to debate or simply conceding.

[Eulogy]

Okay that just totally derailed what I was going to say
Sorry but whether my brother survived what seems to be a minor heart attack is somewhat more important to me right now.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it ridiculasly annoying when some people bring up personal tragedies during a discussion they are losing, as if that's some sort of excuse or get out of jail free card for being an idiot and wrong?

Frankly, it disgusts me that anyone would use the hardship or pain of their family in any discussion, unless it's directly related to the topic at hand.

It's utterly shameful.

It's one of the worst Red Herrings there are.

You may as well concede, you failed withdrawal. Further antics at this point will only make you look worse.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

He's making it up, of course. An enormous number of such claims on the internet are lies.

[JBG]

"asswipe.", "shit-eating little ass", "you little lying dumbfuck", "retard"

Ummm, you don't seem to be getting much traction here with your point of view Darth Nostril ( how many "Darths" are there here? Mr Wong perhaps should have kept "Darth" for special occasions or long serving members, of which I am not one so tell me to STF up if you like ) but once your family issues are more or less settled you might like to expand on your argument.

If AGW/climate change is seen by you as an article of almost religious like faith then you would have to come out guns blazing with science otherwise you will be dismissed as, well, see above!

[Darth Nostril]

He's making it up, of course. An enormous number of such claims on the internet are lies.

Actually no this was real, he's been hospitalized with heart palpitations before, last time they did the nerve reset thing on the nerves in his back, fortunately it wasn't as bad as it seemed, his girlfriend was more than a little panicky on the phone took a few hours until we got real information, unfortunately the hospital doctors haven't got a clue what caused it ... a "possible viral infection", for fucks sake could you be any more imprecise
I don't really like my brother but this, I got worried
Call me a selfish asshole if you will but we're both in the same profession, refrigeration engineer, and long term exposure to refrigerants can cause nerve damage, heart problems and cancers (although that last one was proved with lab rats, show me a lab rat that doesn't get cancer after being exposed to anything), if this is something that was caused by his job then it's a pretty fair bet that I'm going to be susceptible to it too, if it's a genetic defect then I'm also at risk
You'll pardon me for getting my panties in a twist over this, self preservation is a hard habit to kick

[The Duchess of Zeon]

"asswipe.", "shit-eating little ass", "you little lying dumbfuck", "retard"

Ummm, you don't seem to be getting much traction here with your point of view Darth Nostril ( how many "Darths" are there here? Mr Wong perhaps should have kept "Darth" for special occasions or long serving members, of which I am not one so tell me to STF up if you like ) but once your family issues are more or less settled you might like to expand on your argument.

If AGW/climate change is seen by you as an article of almost religious like faith then you would have to come out guns blazing with science otherwise you will be dismissed as, well, see above!

That is the way we argue here. You'd never hear me say such things in person--god, I'm blushing right now just thinking of the idea!, I really--but it's simply the way we argue here, and at this board's predecessor of ASVS. I learned a long time ago that if you want to stay in the sandbox here, you have to be able to stand the heat--I don't hold any actual anger toward the little shit, it's simply what you do here, point illustrated, I daresay. It really is a hard climate to adapt to because you have to set aside your outsider mannerism and do things as calculated gestures--insults for sake of form rather than emotion--to drive home the point and overwhelm the person you're arguing with.

And god I know that it can drive people off, some of them being quite decent folks, but, it's simply the way things have been done in this community since its foundation, and being a conservative, who am I to argue with traditions? *grins*

[loomer]

Jesus, Nostril. You've been here a month and you're already taking on trouble? You've got 47 posts, too. I had like, what, 2 in my first month?

Take things slow, and for the love of god, READ UP ON THINGS before you start jumping in. It'll save you a world of hurt, and people might actually appreciate it.

[Surlethe]

Another Kool-Aid drinker, I see.

I'm an agnostic you twat

Oh and get with the picture, it's called climate change now, if it was global warming then both ice caps would be melting instead of the northern cap breaking up and the southern cap growing

Climate change is just another name for the same phenomenon: the rapid increase of the temperature averaged over the surface of the Earth. A more accurate name might be climate destabilization, because that's what's happening right now.

Next, you need to justify why global warming would affect both polar caps equally. (Hint: you need to assume that both are symmetric with respect to mean temperature changes, causing the same effects. This is, of course, balderdash.)

It annoys the fuck out of me when I see otherwise intelligent people harping on about this, yes there are environmental problems just over the horizon, very real problems we should be worrying about, instead we're just pissing into the wind about carbon footprints
Why do governments bother about this? two words .... Carbon Taxes .... they just invented a brand new way of screwing us out of even more money

Feel free to ignore the fact that climate scientists were predicting this warming thirty and forty years ago, long before the government was aware of the issue.

We are pumping out millions of tons of toxic shit every year into the air, land and seas, the human population is growing every year, as it grows we need to produce more food, the available land soon won't be able to produce that quantity, especially as the population grows to cover once arable land
We are going to need the oceans to provide for the population ..... right now we are literally pumping out shit that is killing off marine life and over fishing whats left

And do you know what else? Climate change is already bleaching coral reefs around the world; it's going to do far more to the oceans than the toxic shit we pump into them.

This concerns me a hell of a lot more than nebulous bollocks about man made global warming
It really is hubris to believe we can wipe out all life on this planet, if we act now ... maybe we can save our own species from it's own stupidity
Maybe

That is exactly why we should be taking steps to mitigate the effects of climate change, global warming, or whatever the hell you want to call it.

50% of global warming cannot be accounted for by natural causes. That is objective fact, not personal subjective opinion like your long rambling screed.

Sources? Got anything to back that up? Oh and it's climate change now, global warming went out of fashion amongst the climatistas when the planet refused to conform to their dogma

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... bution.png
See the article for sources.

[Darth Wong]

Darth Nostril, one question: what kind of scientific education do you have, and what level of scientific research have you conducted into this matter, to declare that all of the major scientific associations are wrong? And in fact, not just wrong but so laughably wrong that you can characterize their hard work as a form of pseudo-scientific "religion"?

Let me guess: you have a PhD in Googling.

[Lusankya]

Whether or not global warming is caused by us is completely irrelevant to the argument anyway: the points to take note of are a) is it happening and b) is it bad for us. If the answer to both points is "yes", then it's an issue that needs to be addressed, regardless of the cause.

I mean, if you saw some guy get hit in a hit and run, you'd go and help him, right? You wouldn't just stand by and say, "Sorry - not my fault." Why should the environment be any different?