Elminster vs Raistlin

[Alyrium Denryle]

Both are at the peak of thier power.

Takes place on demiplane that is neutral ground for both, it is 10 miles in diameter, the terrain is rocky and provides adequate cover from things like fireball

They both have battle spell prepared

Here are the principles

Raistlin




Elminster

[Enforcer Talen]

well, as raistlin took out the top evil goddess on her own plane. . .raistlin.

besides, those hourglass eyes are really cool.

[Dead on Arrival]

In terms of wizardly coolness it goes...

Karsus, Arcanist of Netheril - with the only 12th level spell ever cast, he foolishly tried to usurp the power of Mystral the goddess of Magic. She destroyed herself to save the weave, and destroyed the upstart as he watched Netheril crumble. No mortal mage of Toril will ever reach such power again.

Vecna, Lich-King of Oerth - engineered an escape from Ravenloft by tricking his rival, the demi-god Iuz, into performing a ritual granting him the power of a full Lesser God. Due to a loophole, was able to enter the nexus of Sigil and oppose the will of the Lady of Pain. His actions had longterm consequences across the megaverse, as certain planes faded from existence, some were born, etc.

Raistlin Majere, Black Mage of Krynn - with the absorbed essence of his supposed master Fistandandilus and countless other mages he faced down a neverending horde of demons, priests, etc to face the Dark Queen herself. When he learned from Caramon what the future would hold, he resigned himself to eternal damnation rather than destroy the entire world of Krynn. It takes character to accept a neverending cycle of rebirth, torture, and death.

Larloch, Szass-Tam, some Elven High Mage...and then near the bottom of the powerful mages you can place Elminster.

[Enforcer Talen]

vecna is definatly cool . .. I wonder him vs greater god raistlin.

[Captain Cyran]

Raistlin kicks Elminster's ass in horribly. But I guess I am alittle partial to Raistlin (Not to mention he is one EVIL bastard)

[lgot]

One, Raistlin did not take off the Dark Queen in her own plane, she come to Krynn, fought the other gods and Raistlin returned and shashed the winner. None of the gods are killed in their plane.

If you mean the peak of their powers, as Raistlin the God, then Raistlin. If you mean him as just a mortal, Then Elminster. There is comparassion of them in the board and stats and Elminster was able to defeat the Forgotten God Mage in a magic duel and is a chosen of Mysthra - Much more powerful Goddess than the Dark Queen can even dream of.
Not to say that Elminster is a top power in Toril, a much more powerful setting than Krynn (even if Krynn is cooler)

[Graeme Dice]

Both are at the peak of thier power.

Which puts Raistlin at around level 15, Elminster at level 35+.

Krynn is a low level world compared to Faerun.

[lgot]

Which puts Raistlin at around level 15, Elminster at level 35+.

Krynn is a low level world compared to Faerun.

Nope, by old 2nd edition standarts, Elminster was 29 level Wizard. And By Dragolance , Raistlin in legends was already able to cast 9th level spells, which would put him about this 15th level. And also, I do not remember well, but Dragolance Adventures bring his stats before legends, but i can not remember his level, something between 18 and 20 level.

BTW, the most powerful individual in krynn is Tas. Enough said!
(but yeah, Krynn is a low level world compared to Faerun, Greyhawk word, Dark Sun word, Ravenloft...)

[Smiling Bandit]

Elminster is now a 43rth level character. And that was before the epic rules came out. He'd be even more powerful with them.

Elminster smacks Raist around like the cotton-candy character he is.

[SirNitram]

Karsus owns.

[Dead on Arrival]

According to the Epic Level Handbook, Elminster is Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5 and is a Chosen of Mystra for a CR 39. He does not have Epic Spellcasting and only has Improved Spellcasting once so can only metamagic a spell upto 10th level equivalency. Because of his status as a Chosen of Mystra he is immortal, but he is not in any way divine or invulnerable. In one of his recent novels he was detained by an Archdevil of the Nine Hells, and had to be rescued by Halaster of Undermountain...with some boosting from Mystra (speculation is that now he is also a Chosen of Mystra and not insane!)

Raistlin was the most powerful mage to ever walk the land of Krynn, with the knowledge and power of Fistandantilus and all the mages he had absorbed at his disposal. He had transcended the mere limits of spells, able to channel the raw power of magic itself...as described when he incinerated the disease plagued town on there way to the Dwarven stronghold and the Portal to the 'Abyss'. He fought his way though hordes of fiends, priests, mages, etc a task that would leave a mortal mage like Elminster completely out of power and helpless. After doing this task, well beyond the ken of a single mortal he made his way back to the Portal and would have successfully destroyed the weakened essence of Takhisis (a Greater God) were it not for his brother Caramon revealing the truth of his 'success' to him. I don't have his 3E stats (mainly due to the fact, DL is not being redone by Wizards of the Coast), but I know given his depiction what he is...a demi-god, just like Vecna while trapped in Ravenloft.

Elminster is epic, Raistlin is EPIC! :p

[lgot]

Raistlin is of course one of the few Epic characters from Dragolance.
But all the rest you said is not true:

Elminster you said is not in the Epic rulebook but in the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms which did not used the Epic rules (The book clearly states it and ask for you to do the change, since they just used a few rules for testing).
So what Raistlin is the most powerful mage in Krynn ? Elminster is the second most powerful probally in a much more overpower world. He probally loses only to Simbul, which would wipe the floor with both of them.
Raistlin does not have Fistandantilus (which was just a 21 lvl Mage and now just a short of Leech). Neither this is a advantage or did you not noticed that Elminster is older than Fistandantilus and he have been present and a few to know about the old magic of Faerun , when they used 10th, 11th ,12th lvl spells - and this BEFORE the 3rd edition ?
Raistlin did not transcended the limit of spells. That was a way to describe Raistlin inate (Elminster in other hand was able to cast spells as a thief, beofre learning it, and that cuaght Mystra attention) ability. He used a spell which is a 7th level one was described in Dragonlance Adventures. If you pay attention, in the Abyss he thinks he forget his spells and Dalamar clearly states his chance to kill him because he would be weaker and wasted much of his spells. And Raistlin still need the concentration and casting to do the portal opening.
You seem to not notice that Crysania did it for him. He did not used his powers until the match with the Dark Queen. He and she clearly say that.
For what you do not know, Krynn mages are clueless about the Planes. When Elminster is not and have traveled a lot for the planes.
Second, when he return to the portal he would not have destroeyed her. He would let her alive and raging in the world until he recovers and take back what he wanted against Weakneed gods after a war. He clearly say that.
I must point out that the Dark Queen is a great god with the same powers of Tiamat, a lesser god in Mystra World. If you look both, no one can have any doubt of how much Mystra is powerful.
He will have great stats, but doubtly he will be superior to Elminster which was superior to him every edition. (I heard Dragonlance was sold to a little company, owned by Hickman and Weiss and they will do the 3rd edition version. I hope they fix up the Saga mistake).

Now who is cooler ? Raistlin. Who would won ? Elminster.

[Dead on Arrival]

Elminster you said is not in the Epic rulebook but in the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms which did not used the Epic rules (The book clearly states it and ask for you to do the change, since they just used a few rules for testing).

My copy of the Epic Level Handbook has his new statblock, so his stats in the FRCS are irrelevant...

So what Raistlin is the most powerful mage in Krynn ? Elminster is the second most powerful probally in a much more overpower world. He probally loses only to Simbul, which would wipe the floor with both of them.

Elminster is not the second most powerful mage upon Toril. That honor would likely be held by the High Prince of Shade Enclave, Telamont Tanthul (Wizard 20/Archmage 5/Shadow Adept 10), with his caster level of 35 which is much higher than the Simbul's (Sorcerer 20/Archmage 2/Wizard 10) of 32 though I suspect it should only be 22 (counting only Sorcerer related progression). Given he is Lord Shadow, a former Arcanist of Netheril, the fact he is more powerful should not be surprising at all. I would also rate the lich Larloch as more powerful than Elminster, as well as most of the elder Elven High Mages.

We don't have Raistlin's 3rd Edition stats so all we can compare is the deeds of either contestant. Elminster was captured in the Nine Hells, while Raistlin walked through wave after wave of its opponents with ease.

Raistlin does not have Fistandantilus (which was just a 21 lvl Mage and now just a short of Leech).

Leech?

Neither this is a advantage or did you not noticed that Elminster is older than Fistandantilus and he have been present and a few to know about the old magic of Faerun , when they used 10th, 11th ,12th lvl spells - and this BEFORE the 3rd edition ?

Elminster was born after Karsus caused the destruction of Netheril, and has no knowledge of spells that are no longer usable on Toril. Mystra reworked the weave to disallow spells of over 9th level, except in rare occasions to be used by the Magister...who has never been Elminster.

Raistlin did not transcended the limit of spells. That was a way to describe Raistlin inate (Elminster in other hand was able to cast spells as a thief, beofre learning it, and that cuaght Mystra attention) ability. He used a spell which is a 7th level one was described in Dragonlance Adventures.

Only 7th level? That seems odd given the description of the scene, in which we are told the effect was beyond the ability of normal magic...as if he had tapped into the very source.

If you pay attention, in the Abyss he thinks he forget his spells and Dalamar clearly states his chance to kill him because he would be weaker and wasted much of his spells. And Raistlin still need the concentration and casting to do the portal opening.

What does this have to do with Raistlin actually surviving to both face the Dark Queen and leave the 'Abyss'?

You seem to not notice that Crysania did it for him. He did not used his powers until the match with the Dark Queen. He and she clearly say that.

She was only with him part of the way, and after she was done...he threw her away and proceded on his own. Elminster would never have gotten as far Raistlin did, no mortal would have.

For what you do not know, Krynn mages are clueless about the Planes. When Elminster is not and have traveled a lot for the planes.

What relevance does this have? Elminster might be a learned plane hopper, but that doesn't mean he is more powerful. Elminster could not penetrate Avernus (the first layer of the Nine Hells, or the 'Abyss' as the people on Krynn call it) by himself, Raistlin did exactly that after he threw Crysiana away.

Second, when he return to the portal he would not have destroeyed her. He would let her alive and raging in the world until he recovers and take back what he wanted against Weakneed gods after a war. He clearly say that.

In first edition the Gods were killable, however they had some interesting abilities. Like the ability to go first, no matter what. Or how about the ability to choose the amount of damage they hit you with, which could range from 100 to 10,000 if I do recall. A mortal could not kill a god, and in second edition...gods were only assailable by divinity, period! They had no stats, because stats were meaningless. Third edition that are back to stats, but are well beyond the abilities of any mortal to face. A weakened diety could still smite entire armies in seconds if it was so inclined...

I must point out that the Dark Queen is a great god with the same powers of Tiamat, a lesser god in Mystra World. If you look both, no one can have any doubt of how much Mystra is powerful.

Tiamat and Takhisis are not the same god. They are from different cosmologies, and as such are two seperate entities. That said, the power of Mystra is irrelevant when it comes to Elminster.

He will have great stats, but doubtly he will be superior to Elminster which was superior to him every edition. (I heard Dragonlance was sold to a little company, owned by Hickman and Weiss and they will do the 3rd edition version. I hope they fix up the Saga mistake).

Sovereign Press, also releases the Sovereign Stone RPG based on another set of novels...

[Smiling Bandit]

Bad writing does not give Raistlin power. His character's statistics are nowhere near as good as Elminster.

[SirNitram]

Elminster's partied with the Gods themselves.. Avatar Trilogy, he survives the detonation of Bane's body and Mystra's essense(Akin to a very confined nuclear strike), wanders through the plane of Gehenna fighting off nasties, travels back to the Prime, participates in a battle against the God of the Dead, and so forth.

[lgot]

My copy of the Epic Level Handbook has his new statblock, so his stats in the FRCS are irrelevant...

Like all copies, there is a adivice that they say , if you want to use (because commom, the epic powers are a rape), you can get his stats from FR and add the feats and bonuses there.
So, You would have to make Elminster and all other probally epics better and his stats in FRCS are irrelevant ? Funny, but talked about those, not me.

Elminster is not the second most powerful mage upon Toril. That honor would likely be held by the High Prince of Shade Enclave, Telamont Tanthul (Wizard 20/Archmage 5/Shadow Adept 10), with his caster level of 35 which is much higher than the Simbul's (Sorcerer 20/Archmage 2/Wizard 10) of 32 though I suspect it should only be 22 (counting only Sorcerer related progression). Given he is Lord Shadow, a former Arcanist of Netheril, the fact he is more powerful should not be surprising at all. I would also rate the lich Larloch as more powerful than Elminster, as well as most of the elder Elven High Mages.

This is very arguably. Elminster have a 36 levels of casting character, only 3 of those of cleric. He have more level was a wizard and the same as Archmage. A Shadow Adept is good, but being a Mystra choosen can hold some good on it. So they are pretty much on level, but that is irrelevant. Let make Elminster the second after him or third or only among the ten, this is the level of competition (even friendly one) he have to stand. This is just a way to prove how Toril is overpowered and Krynn is not.
And Simbul have some beneficts from being a Seven Sister Thing...
The arch-lich i left outside, because I was just talking about NORMAL (i mean, no dragons, liches, demons, etc) spellcasters.
(which leech i meant Lich, Must be overdose of white wolf smug talking ^^)

Elminster was born after Karsus caused the destruction of Netheril, and has no knowledge of spells that are no longer usable on Toril. Mystra reworked the weave to disallow spells of over 9th level, except in rare occasions to be used by the Magister...who has never been Elminster.

indeed, if you noticed i did said he know about Netheril stuff, and that they -not him - could cast such high level spells.

Only 7th level? That seems odd given the description of the scene, in which we are told the effect was beyond the ability of normal magic...as if he had tapped into the very source.

You must remember that was a narrative effect of how Raistlin was so good that he could deal with magic as it was a raw stuff. How Raistlin was "born with gift" like if its so genetical power.
Of course ,this spell was created in that scene and later they had to put down all the spells they created in the books, The time travel spell, the Fingerprints in the Dalamar chest, Even that Crysania "send the soul to paladine to save from a power word kill" was there. They had to put level on those and the most powerful was , of course, the time travel one. It was irrelevant the level of spell, but it was still as spell learned and studyied every day.

What does this have to do with Raistlin actually surviving to both face the Dark Queen and leave the 'Abyss'?

nuthin...it have to do with "He had transcended the mere limits of spells, able to channel the raw power of magic itself..."

She was only with him part of the way, and after she was done...he threw her away and proceded on his own. Elminster would never have gotten as far Raistlin did, no mortal would have.

yeah, only part of the way...When she killed all the minnons and only the personal guard and the queen herself lasted.
But you are mistaken. Or you forget that A GNOME AND KENDER JUST DID ONE BOOK LATER ? I know, Tas is god, but the Gnone ? The Gnome is a mortal.
In the description of his house in the old book, its said that Elminster was often traveling by the planes. Many mortals can do that, which is just the first lawyer of the hell.

What relevance does this have? Elminster might be a learned plane hopper, but that doesn't mean he is more powerful. Elminster could not penetrate Avernus (the first layer of the Nine Hells, or the 'Abyss' as the people on Krynn call it) by himself, Raistlin did exactly that after he threw Crysiana away.

you say it, because a Archdevil got him prisioner (A archdevil is actually more powerful that anything there) ? Elminster could do.
Other stuff, If you check out Planescape books, you learn that Knowledge about the planes is more important that raw power. It make you know the paths to travel and how to travel without atracting bad attention. This helps a lot.

In first edition the Gods were killable, however they had some interesting abilities. Like the ability to go first, no matter what. Or how about the ability to choose the amount of damage they hit you with, which could range from 100 to 10,000 if I do recall. A mortal could not kill a god, and in second edition...gods were only assailable by divinity, period! They had no stats, because stats were meaningless. Third edition that are back to stats, but are well beyond the abilities of any mortal to face. A weakened diety could still smite entire armies in seconds if it was so inclined...

This is irrelevant, because they actually do not say Raistlin killed her personaly and they do not show how raistlin did it. But the Dark Queen have a historycal of defeats in the hand of human mortals, so Huma says.
Elminster was also able to face and defeat gods.

Tiamat and Takhisis are not the same god. They are from different cosmologies, and as such are two seperate entities. That said, the power of Mystra is irrelevant when it comes to Elminster.

Which is arguable and officially , in the Chronicles Special Edition with sidenotes they let clear, They Used Tiamat, and as final note, the headmaster of the group, said they are the same. From the comparassion, they live in the same place in the planes, do have the same portifolio and the same stats. Which is enough.
My point here is again to show the overpowering world Forgotten is if you look to Krynn. (Basically we have the number of Overpower beings in the level of Elminster, Blackstaff, the seven sister, etc) which all other worlds (Dark Sun, Greyhawk, Dragonlance) have to join up to go together. Raistlin is one of those, powerful enough to be a strength in Toril, but unlike Krynn, not to be the most powerfull there.

[Dead on Arrival]

Oh boy...

Bad writing does not give Raistlin power. His character's statistics are nowhere near as good as Elminster.

Bad writing? Have you actually read Chronicles or Legends? It is leaps and bounds beyond the garbage that Ed Greenwood passes off in his Elminster novels. Also, for the most part Elminster's levels don't really provide him with that big of an advantage. Take off his non-caster levels (Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3), and we get a caster level for Elminster of only 29 (Wizard 24/Archmage 5). Before he used the Bloodstone Amulet on Fistandantilus Raistlin was 21st level, but after using it gained the 4 level difference...so 25th level. That is straight caster level, so before Raistlin entered the 'Abyss' he was at most 4 levels behind Elminster in overall caster ability. Elminster's abilities granted by the Archmage Prestige Class are nice, but if are using 3E rules...we should assume that Raistlin has also taken levels in one.

Both Elminster and Raistlin have access to the same level of spells (9th), but Raistlin follows a faster spell progression than Elminster...was able to cast 9th level spells when he was 13th level! When he used the Bloodstone Amulet he not only gained levels, but gained the power and knowledge of everyone that Fistandantilus had used it on. In doing so he gained the life experiences of countless mages, some of which were older than Elminster. So, Elminster's age does not provide any advantage over Raistlin.

Elminster's character level provides him with alot of resources, but at the same time Raistlin has in his possession multiple artifacts. The Staff of the Magius, the Dragon Orb, and the Bloodstone Amulet. As well, he has also CREATED artifacts...such as the device he built for Astinus. This feat is well beyond the ability of Elminster, or any other mage still walking the land of Aber-Toril. Raistlin has demonstrated significantly greater skill in the Art than Elminster has.

Elminster's written statistics don't really make him any more powerful than Raistlin, but when you compare there accomplishments...Raistlin is more powerful than Elminster by far.

Elminster's partied with the Gods themselves.. Avatar Trilogy, he survives the detonation of Bane's body and Mystra's essense(Akin to a very confined nuclear strike), wanders through the plane of Gehenna fighting off nasties, travels back to the Prime, participates in a battle against the God of the Dead, and so forth.

It has been awhile, but I am sure he didn't actually survive the battle with Bane. Thank his contingencies for that, as he was transported to Safehold upon being destroyed. We are also not talking about him fighting a god, but instead a significantly weaker avatarform. Elminster could never defeat a true avatar of Bane, and that is just looked at straight stats. Also, in the Avatar Trilogy the only time an avatar is in fact destroyed is at the hands of another diety. Bhaal was killed by Cyric wielding the avatarform of Mask. Bane was destroyed by Torm. Myrkul (sp?) was destroyed by Mystra/Midnight.

Elminster was captured by a relatively minor Archdevil in 'Elminster in Hell', Raistlin strolled through the Abyss like he owned the place. He defeated everything the Dark Queen threw at him, and upon drawing her to Krynn was powerful enough to defeat her...weakened or not, she is still a god.

Also, in the later novels...Raistlin also 'parties' with the gods. But I won't spoil the latest trilogy by W&H unless you want me to...

[Dead on Arrival]

Igot, it is extremely difficult to follow you. If I misunderstand you, now you know why...

Like all copies, there is a advice that they say if you want to use (because commom, the epic powers are a rape), you can get his stats from FR and add the feats and bonuses there.
So, You would have to make Elminster and all other probally epics better and his stats in FRCS are irrelevant ? Funny, but talked about those, not me.

Huh? We have his new statblock in the ELH. If you have characters above 20th level you use the ELH, how hard is that to comprehend? Incidentally, in the FRCS his caster level is only 25.

This is very arguably. Elminster have a 36 levels of casting character, only 3 of those of cleric. He have more level was a wizard and the same as Archmage.

FRCS: (Chosen of Mystra) Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 20/Archmage 5/Epic 4 [caster level 25]
ELH: (Chosen of Mystra) Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5 [caster level 29]

I know which one I would use...

A Shadow Adept is good, but being a Mystra choosen can hold some good on it.

Give Lord Shadow three levels of Improved Spellcasting and one level of Improved Metamagic so he can Empower Horrid Wilting 4 times to a 12th level equivalency. With one spell, of which he would have multiple he does ~50d8 damage with a Saving Throw that Elminster could not make. Well, ELH one might be able, but FRCS Elminster dries up into dust and then ends up at Safehold (his pocket dimension where he ends up when he 'dies').

So they are pretty much on level, but that is irrelevant. Let make Elminster the second after him or third or only among the ten, this is the level of competition (even friendly one) he have to stand. This is just a way to prove how Toril is overpowered and Krynn is not.

Yet, the mages and clerics in the Dark Queen's army were able to create floating citadels the likes of which is real 10th+ level magic on Toril. There are a TON of powerful mages/clerics on Krynn, which should be expected given at what level they can access the highest level spells. We don't see alot of them, because they are in the background while the story revolves around the heroes.

indeed, if you noticed i did said he know about Netheril stuff, and that they -not him - could cast such high level spells.

You implied he had knowledge of Netherse magic, which is not true. He might have knowledge of there history or culture, but no mortal mage has knowledge of access to higher than 9th level spells. Epic spells are not the same, and in most cases pale reflections of what the Netherese or Elven High Magic can accomplish.

You must remember that was a narrative effect of how Raistlin was so good that he could deal with magic as it was a raw stuff. How Raistlin was "born with gift" like if its so genetical power.
Of course ,this spell was created in that scene and later they had to put down all the spells they created in the books, The time travel spell, the Fingerprints in the Dalamar chest, Even that Crysania "send the soul to paladine to save from a power word kill" was there. They had to put level on those and the most powerful was , of course, the time travel one. It was irrelevant the level of spell, but it was still as spell learned and studyied every day.

Almost all of Elminster's power comes from his novels, his stats are a pale reflection of some of his deeds. However, as I have already shown his stats don't provide any real advantages over Raistlin, and Raistlin has shown considerable more power in the Art than Elminster ever has.

yeah, only part of the way...When she killed all the minnons and only the personal guard and the queen herself lasted.

Huh? He discarded her long before the Dark Queen ran out of forces to throw at him.

But you are mistaken. Or you forget that A GNOME AND KENDER JUST DID ONE BOOK LATER ? I know, Tas is god, but the Gnone ? The Gnome is a mortal.

Did what? The Dark Queen LET them escape, hence the whole bit where Tas sees the landscape change into an image of Raistlin's mother with the message for him.

In the description of his house in the old book, its said that Elminster was often traveling by the planes. Many mortals can do that, which is just the first lawyer of the hell.

So what? His ability to travel to different planes doesn't give him any kind of advantage over Raistlin. Krynn's cosmology is different to Oerth or Toril.

you say it, because a Archdevil got him prisioner (A archdevil is actually more powerful that anything there) ? Elminster could do.
Other stuff, If you check out Planescape books, you learn that Knowledge about the planes is more important that raw power. It make you know the paths to travel and how to travel without atracting bad attention. This helps a lot.

So, what you are saying is...where Elminster would tread lightly, Raistlin barreled through with raw power?

This is irrelevant, because they actually do not say Raistlin killed her personaly and they do not show how raistlin did it.

Read it again. Upon drawing her to the material plane, Krynn itself would provide the power he needed to defeat her...the feat was in actually being able to wield said power. The other gods, except perhaps the three moons of magic, had nothing to do with it. After he destroyed the Dark Queen, he then destroyed the other gods. Also, even in a weakened state she could still smite him and everyone for miles in an instant. A mortal being cannot destory a D&D divinity, it is impossible.

But the Dark Queen have a historycal of defeats in the hand of human mortals, so Huma says.

Huma defeated her by driving an artifact into her avatarform, causing her to retreat back to the Abyss. Defeat is a long way from destroy, and there is also the fact Huma had Paladine on his side.

Elminster was also able to face and defeat gods.

LOL! Yeah right. If you are talking about the avatar trilogy, then I will again point out that weakened avatarforms don't represent a god. He also never defeated any of them, as I also pointed out.

Which is arguable and officially , in the Chronicles Special Edition with sidenotes they let clear, They Used Tiamat, and as final note, the headmaster of the group, said they are the same. From the comparassion, they live in the same place in the planes, do have the same portifolio and the same stats. Which is enough.

They are not the same being. They may be based upon the same Babylonian myth, but they are not the same god. Both Tiamat and Bahamut are Lesser Gods in Deities and Demigods, while there is another force also known as Tiamat that rules in the Muhlorandi pantheon on Aber-Toril. Same names, but they are not the same gods.

[Captain Cyran]

Which novels Dead On Arrival? the War of Souls or Dragons of Summer Flame?, I haven't seen him in the War of Souls yet.

[SirNitram]

Lord Shadow? Shade?

Are we talking about the crackpot Arcanist who built an Enclave of theives and vagabonds and vanished? Where does this come forth?

Oh, and Netherese magic is gone. The only beings even capable of trying to duplicate it were the Lichlord(An immensely powerful Lich when Netheril fell.. Tack on about three thousand years to get to the present), and Karsus' Simalcrum(Though said Simalcrum might be dead. I'm not sure).

[Alyrium Denryle]

Here are the stats for the staff of Magus(These are by no means official or complete)

The Staff of Magius was given to Raistlin by Par Salian After Rasitlin completed his test. The Staff is an artifact that is extremely powerful.
For those who are familiar with D&D terms:
Used by: Magius,Raistlin, Palin.
Description:
This polished mahogany staff is topped with a crystal ball grasped in bronze dragon claw. It powers are limited only by is user; once the mage learns the staff's true nature, great power may be summoned.
Legend say the wizard Magius aided Huma in his quest to drive dragons from the face of Krynn. Magius's staff of legend still bears the wizard's spirit and lends it to save the world Magius loved. Many mages of reown have used this staff and added to its powers.

Powers:


improves the mage's AC

partial protection from all magicl attacks

Continual Light 60' radius (the light eminates from the crystal on the staff, it is summoned by the command word "shirak" and extinguished by the command word "dulak")

can save owner with a feather fall

can double spell durations

Secret Powers:

Darkness, 15' Radius

Detect Magic

Enlarge

Hold Portal

Protection vs Evil/Good

Strike at Double Damage


Entangle

Jump

Knock

Leviate

Gust of Wind

Magic Missiles

Spider Climb

Telekinese


Dispel Magic

Feign Death

Fire Shield

Invisibility

Lightning Bolt

Locate Object

Paralyze

Summon Swarm

The staff recharges its powers in the light of Solinari.
Defenses:

Dispel Magic

[Dead on Arrival]

Read the FRCS and Lords of Darkness. Lord Shadow is the ruler of Shade Enclave, which is a Netherse floating city (complete with Mythallar) that is now taking up residence above Annaroch (sp?). Shar guided them back to the realms from the Plane of Shadows to help tip the balance of power against her eternal enemy Selune, and once they destroy the Phaerim they plan to rebuild the Empire of Netheril...out of the shattered ruins of the current governments. Good stuff. They were also instrumental in saving Evereska from destruction by the Phaerim, so everyone is unsure of what there intentions really are. An enemy with teeth, something Aber-Toril has been lacking for awhile now.

Raistlin appears in the last novel of the War of Souls trilogy...

[SirNitram]

*SPEW* Shar brought that Enclave back?! What's the un-abbreviated title for this? I must see it, now. Shar's gone completely batty.

The Phaerim are back, oh dear oh dear...

I'm also hearing someone ressurected Bane... Or is it his son masquerading as him? Cause as I recall the one artifact capable of returning him to power was shattered in the novel Hand Of Bane.

[Dead on Arrival]

Bane is back. His 'son' was a contingency plan he set in motion before the Time of Troubles.

Bhaal is still dead...
Myrkul is the Crown of Horns...

And according to the Netheril box set, the city of Shade was a regular enclave of arcanists, etc. Lord Shadow was just among the first to research the Plane of Shadows...

[Dead on Arrival]

FRCS = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Should be able to find a copy on Kazaa if you look hard enough...