SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK III

[K. A. Pital]

My real life expertise as a construction technician actually helps a lot here, hehe.

The USSR mass-constructed thousands of ordinary and other nuclear shelters to save a large fraction of the populace; there are still normatives for civil housing construction which detail how a shelter should be made, where, etc. which I took time to read.

Creating Metros in every city is important as a Metro is a civil defense object which can house up to 500,000 humans as a short-term shelter in capital cities and up to 100,000 in smaller cities.

Universities, schools and kindergardens - all well known routes for people - also house nearby UG concrete, hardened shelters.

A comprehensive sheltering program can make hundreds of them per year; the costs would be born by the construction industry (and ultimately the national economy of course) - instead of McMansions...

Serious considerations of nuclear war are important for urban planners: street distance between two building clusters cannot be less than 40 meters (also important for fires, gas explosions and terrorism), and so on and so forth.

Constructing a comprehensive shelter and Civil Defense system is not as hard if you have General Urban Planning and deny sporadic private construction in cities, as well as hold the city land in nationalized property only leased by construction contractors; and write-in shelter normatives into the State Cnstruction Standartds (SNIP, GOST) or whatever your nation has.

Construction costs: a shelter for a 10,000-20,000 factory or facility would cost around 200-500 thousand dollars. A 1000 men shelter for a urban district would be in the range of 20-100K dollars. For 1 billion, you can construct thousands of various shelters, so the pains for the economy should not be excruciating. Remember: cheaper energy in this world helps, and also using cheaper labour in the labour-intense tasks, might help (forced labour not always = cheap labour, remember that too).

Terms: considering a large nation can put in 20-50 million square meters of housing, or more, it can be assumed that with additional costs of 1-2 billion for smaller nations and 10-20 billion for greater nations, a comprehensive shelter program could be kickstarted; and in 2-3 years of investment it would spawn the nation.

[Raj Ahten]

Ugh, everybody is playing pure power poliutics right now . (A game in which Indhopal canbe absolutely steam rolled if a a major nation decides to really fuck with me.) But with little trust what the hell does anyone expect to happen?

On another note, Baerne, about when will that Mineral survey be finished in Indhopal?

[TimothyC]

First twenty for me are free? Cool. Fifteen single-seaters and five nuclear strikers (improved ground-attack capability is always a bonus regardless of whether one has nukes or not) should sound good.

You were going to get ten and ten, but I guess I go to a 15-5 split.

That's fine.

I also forgot to ask this earlier, but when are the first airframes going to arrive, anyway? Just asking, is all.

Well I've ploted out the following:

10 frames per month

30 for me to start with (July, August September)

10 for you (October)

10 per month after that.

If orders don't materialize, then New Patria will be able co cover about 7 months worth of production from it's needed supply, and your order was for another month so the two of us can keep the line open until June of 2012.

[Master_Baerne]

Ugh, everybody is playing pure power poliutics right now . (A game in which Indhopal canbe absolutely steam rolled if a a major nation decides to really fuck with me.) But with little trust what the hell does anyone expect to happen?

On another note, Baerne, about when will that Mineral survey be finished in Indhopal?

It was.

Baernish News Service
File BNS-32

The MinFin resource-location team sent to Indhopal turned in it's findings to the Indhopal government today, detailing the extensive deposits of copper and gold on the island. In addition, small amounts of tungsten, iron, coal, and lead located.

More information may be released later, at the discretion of the Indhopal government.

[phongn]

In case of a nuclear war between UAR and MESS... nuke FUN! The FUN, which was neutral, and also did not vow to blockade Libertia which is what the MESS did. And whose entire nuclear stockpile is a handful of leftover Tu-160 missiles and Tu-95 bombs.

A major FUN nation just publicly requested that MESS launch a major pre-emptive strike! With that kind of rhetoric, should war break how could the UAR not consider FUN a co-belligerent?

Yeah, perhaps "neutrality" is a concept that is hard to grasp for the UAR; after all, both of it's leaders now claim to be targeting the entire world.

"I ask the MESS to initiate preventive nuclear first strike against your nations" is not the act of neutral leadership!

I'm tired of being forced to "escalate" or even answer to pointless bullying like "stop our ships, we NUKE YU!!". I moved my nukes into deep storages so if you nuke us it would be on your conscience. With this, I am going away and hoping our nations stay alive.

Well, if it doesn't come down to war (immediately), you've just made Shep start development of a B61 mod 11 ... or just use B53s on it. To be blunt, if you don't use them you will lose them when it comes to war.

Constructing a comprehensive shelter and Civil Defense system is not as hard if you have General Urban Planning and deny sporadic private construction in cities, as well as hold the city land in nationalized property only leased by construction contractors; and write-in shelter normatives into the State Construction Standards (SNIP, GOST) or whatever your nation has.

You can also make like Switzerland, too, there are not a few examples of proper civil defense planning. Pity it was considered such a joke in the US.

Man are you wrong, you don’t even want to know now how many times President Sheppard has had to be talked out of things when he asked ‘do we start it today?”

Hah, you're not the only one. I've been trying to push the clock back from midnight here too

[K. A. Pital]

A major FUN nation just publicly requested that MESS launch a major pre-emptive strike!

Really? In the OOC thread? I only said I'd cheer such a strike, not participate in it. Considering Skimmer's OOC comment on "you'll all love post-apocalypse" I see it rather fitting to send a similar love message in the OOC thread.

Well, if it doesn't come down to war (immediately), you've just made Shep start development of a B61 mod 11

I removed them from my airbase, to show that my state of readiness is lowered. You know, when nuclear devices are moved into storage, readiness is decreased. It generally shows tha the nation is not willing to go into a nuclear war. What are you implying here?

Oooh, I see. De-escalation is now grounds to build yet more offensive weapons; kill, kill, kill. Well, good luck on your alliance with Shep and Skimmer.

[General Deathdealer]

Some real world info on prices of Tanzanite that was just discovered in Baal.

Wholesale prices for top quality tanzanite gems were just $225 per carat in the year 2000, to $500 per carat in late 2007. Retail prices are now running as high as $3500 per carat as of April 2008.

[phongn]

Really? In the OOC thread? I only said I'd cheer such a strike, not participate in it. Considering Skimmer's OOC comment on "you'll all love post-apocalypse" I see it rather fitting to send a similar love message in the OOC thread.

Sorry, it sounded there like you were going to make that into actual policy and the wording was fairly exact and not really cheerleading.

I removed them from my airbase, to show that my state of readiness is lowered. You know, when nuclear devices are moved into storage, readiness is decreased. It generally shows tha the nation is not willing to go into a nuclear war. What are you implying here?

Er, nothing, I think you were reading too much into that. I'm just mentioning that in the event of a "bolt from the blue" attack you've put yourself at a severe disadvantage, that's all.

Oooh, I see. De-escalation is now grounds to build yet more offensive weapons; kill, kill, kill. Well, good luck on your alliance with Shep and Skimmer.

It also sends a message that you may be preparing for protracted nuclear war by building deep-earth weapons bunkers! Any aggressor (i.e. UAR) with a rational targeting policy will have to develop weapons to take it out.

As for an alliance with the UAR?

[K. A. Pital]

Sorry, it sounded there like you were going to make that into actual policy

If I were, I'd PM RogueIce and covertly discuss it with him, wouldn't I, not post it in OOC thread as part of anti-UAR vents? I did nothing IU; but Shep put his patrols on doomsday watch and according to you and Skimmer considered nuking the world several times over by now. I'll take note of that information. It just reinforces what we already all know.

I'm just mentioning that in the event of a "bolt from the blue" attack you've put yourself at a severe disadvantage

I have a scant dozen or few nuclear devices, and the FUN does not have a nuclear weapons program of it's own. I'm at "severe disanvantage" anyway.

It also sends a message that you may be preparing for protracted nuclear war by building deep-earth weapons bunkers!

Where else am I supposed to store nuclear weapons, out in the field? In a tin can storehouse? Or maybe in hardened silos and storages, like it's supposed to be?

As for an alliance with the UAR?

Puhleeze. You work with them, trade with them, run joint naval operations with them.

EDIT: Hahaha. Very smart. I'm sure the UAR will not save your ass if you make a wrong move somewhere down this military operations line and then get nuked the hell out of.

[Mr Bean]

Some real world info on prices of Tanzanite that was just discovered in Baal.

Wholesale prices for top quality tanzanite gems were just $225 per carat in the year 2000, to $500 per carat in late 2007. Retail prices are now running as high as $3500 per carat as of April 2008.

A gem is only valuable if you can convince people to use it. It's in vogue now so the prices are through the roof for a fixed supply. Give it ten years and prices will fall again. It's the same for all gemstones. Diamonds stay so valuable because diamonds are part of the frigging culture at this point, everyone expects a diamond wedding ring, not a ruby or emerald ring.

Just a note on why so few people chose gems to be a major natural resource. Few of them have a useful secondary industrial component, so your demand comes purely from the jewelery industry. However assuming you can drum up demand you should have a viable secondary industry in two to six years.

[phongn]

Where else am I supposed to store nuclear weapons, out in the field? In a tin can storehouse? Or maybe in hardened silos and storages, like it's supposed to be?

You might be surprised about how unhardened weapons storage can be. Missile silos are something of an exception, not the rule.

Puhleeze. You work with them, trade with them, run joint naval operations with them.

If we were truly allied we would've cross-shipped all of their stuff in the Fast Convoy. We work together when convenient and our interest match - in this case, Libertia. As for Neverhood, ITM has so far limited itself to surveying and not exploitation: note that said company is attempting to talk with the West Neverhood government-in-hiding. Presumably they will also try and talk with the NVA.

EDIT: Hahaha. Very smart. I'm sure the UAR will not save your ass if you make a wrong move somewhere down this military operations line and then get nuked the hell out of.

I wouldn't expect anything else.

[DarthShady]

Ok, the FUN Conference is now on a short break, in case the esteemed leaders wish to discuss subjects that are not directly related to the conference, and so if we agree on the major issues perhaps we can slowly bring it to an end.

phongn what exactly are you doing in the central sea?

[Raj Ahten]

Ugh, everybody is playing pure power poliutics right now . (A game in which Indhopal canbe absolutely steam rolled if a a major nation decides to really fuck with me.) But with little trust what the hell does anyone expect to happen?

On another note, Baerne, about when will that Mineral survey be finished in Indhopal?

It was.

Baernish News Service
File BNS-32

The MinFin resource-location team sent to Indhopal turned in it's findings to the Indhopal government today, detailing the extensive deposits of copper and gold on the island. In addition, small amounts of tungsten, iron, coal, and lead located.

More information may be released later, at the discretion of the Indhopal government.

Whoops All the internartional crisis's have kept my attention!

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Wait, who's RPing Ramsley now? I thought I was.

Also, Bean I definitely want the ship.

[Raj Ahten]

Alexander will likely ask to buy a Destroyer or Cruiser of his own in order to Match Ramsley's fleet. Anything more would be too much, his tiny coastline doesn't justify having more.

I also have a question as well. Mr Bean, just why are you scaling down your military so much? (hopefully I didn't miss the announement on it, if there was one.)

[phongn]

Alexander will likely ask to buy a Destroyer or Cruiser of his own in order to Match Ramsley's fleet. Anything more would be too much, his tiny coastline doesn't justify having more.

Honestly, I think he'd be better off with frigates or even smaller patrol boats, though the prestige of a DD or CG would be something tinpot dictators do

[Raj Ahten]

Alexander will likely ask to buy a Destroyer or Cruiser of his own in order to Match Ramsley's fleet. Anything more would be too much, his tiny coastline doesn't justify having more.

Honestly, I think he'd be better off with frigates or even smaller patrol boats, though the prestige of a DD or CG would be something tinpot dictators do

Of course. everyone knows Alexander has the best armed forces in Libertopia.

[K. A. Pital]

Oky, let's clear something.

Skimmer claimed the UAR has 10 gigatons of nukes.

Ten fucking gigatons for an archipelago whose entier ground surface is smaller than Africa.

I think everyone should understand that the combined USSR-US nuclear stockpile at it's high reached something like 15-20 gigatons.

This was an arsenal both strategic and tactical, designed to wage a nuclear war.

Now, this also means Shep produced nukes at a rate of 3,3 Gigatons per year (no nuclear weapon stuff save for those which came with stockpile ordred tech, like SSBNs, existed in SDN world). HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?! Show the calculations, which detail the fissile material production, and the economic cost of this!

No wonder Shep bowed out, if his nation blew it's entier 1,5 trillion GDP!! into constructing 3,3 gigatons of nukes PER YEAR, impossible feat! His people must be starving slaves by now.

This only reinforces the idea that Shepnukistan, Saddamistan and the UAR have nothing in mind but the destruction of the entier world. They starved their own populations to produce colossal stockpiles of Nuclear and Biological agents and now have nothing to do but KILL EVERYONE - else their impoverished populations (note how silent both are about their economy, and in general, but field massive armies and navies) rise against them and kill them.

Great.

Remember, the US: a 13.8 trillion economy. With a $500 billion military spending. It spend $4 trillion on it's nuclear forces in the entier XX century, from 1945 onwards. $4 trillion over the course of long, long years. Now, Shep constructed 10 Gigatons of nuclear devices - this is unfeasible.

The UAR is either bluffing, OR they are nuclear madmen indeed.

Oh, and if Shep decides that he used joint OMSK funds (and the OMSK had a war budget comparable to USSR/US) to procure those gigatons of nukes... this means his entier economy is geared towards making nukes.

Which means, post OMSK downfall, he is in an economic crisis. So scale down that arsenal, or I'll write in about the collapse of Shepnukistan industry with no revenue from making gigatons of nukes per year.

[phongn]

Now, this also means Shep produced nukes at a rate of 3,3 Gigatons per year (no nuclear weapon stuff save for those which came with stockpile ordred tech, like SSBNs, existed in SDN world). HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?! Show the calculations, which detail the fissile material production, and the economic cost of this!

Shep actually showed the numbers for material production awhile back, IIRC, based on thermal production of his RBMK-2000 reactors. He did account for it, and his decommissioning of a bunch of nuclear-powered ships was done specifically to get the fissile material for weapons.

Remember, the US: a 13.8 trillion economy. With a $500 billion military spending. It spend $4 trillion on it's nuclear forces in the entire XX century, from 1945 onwards. $4 trillion over the course of long, long years. Now, Shep constructed 10 Gigatons of nuclear devices - this is unfeasible.

Er, can you break those numbers down, Stas? They might be misleading and all - and remember, that big nukes are actually fairly easy to make. It's the small ones that are expensive and a pain.

Ten fucking gigatons for an archipelago whose entire ground surface is smaller than Africa.

That's not really relevant, to be blunt. If Shep wants to go the "erase cities from the map" route with unitary weapons, he has no choice but to deploy big nukes.

I think everyone should understand that the combined USSR-US nuclear stockpile at it's high reached something like 15-20 gigatons.

Yep. It then drew down primarily because the US developed much more accurate weapons.

[K. A. Pital]

Look, US military spending.
1953 442.3
1954 420.9
1955 376.9

Stockpile rise.

442 billion! That's how much OMSK spent in those three years in entierty for the military!

And OMSK is not even a single authority like the US; not all nations paid for the nuclear programme; many had their entier spending based on conventional weapons or dedicated to construction space forces, etc. etc.

So Shepnukistan mostly bore the costs alone. That is UNFEASIBLE.

The US operated 1000 URANIUM MINES by 1955. Does Shep operate so many mines? Does he operate so many reactors? Did he spend his entier 1,5 trillion on nuke construction?

That's not just ridiculous. It's offensive.

[RogueIce]

Just a quick clarification from earlier, Shep was mistaken when he said the Neverhood was an Imperium with a Duchy economy (or whatever). Even without the CT, DEATH only rated a Tsardom (and that's the population and land area figures he used).

And phongn: DEATH has stated his resources somewhere. I know he at least told me over IM. I'll check around and see if I can find it.

Main industries: Energy (Nuclear,Hydro), resource extraction (gas, diamonds, uranium), Tourism, high-technology projects (including aviation, communications, computer-aided design and manufactures, High efficiency Undersea & deep-mining technology, Space technology, fiber optics).
Mineral resources exist, including oil, but are depleted or have high extraction costs (In the case of the oil), barring Uranium, Diamonds & Metals (recently discovered, and easier to reach due to silting of the channels).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Alexander will likely ask to buy a Destroyer or Cruiser of his own in order to Match Ramsley's fleet. Anything more would be too much, his tiny coastline doesn't justify having more.

I also have a question as well. Mr Bean, just why are you scaling down your military so much? (hopefully I didn't miss the announement on it, if there was one.)

Erm. No. I seriously doubt that Ramsley can, under the current circumstances, even remotely support 1 cruiser or destroyer. He has barely a dockyard, or anything.

At best, he can support the Halifax frigates.

[K. A. Pital]

More simply put. Nuclear program prior to the rise of small devices, missiles and all that. Blunt large bombs. Also, consider Shep did all stages from 1945 to 1955 in 3 years, but that's explainabel as no research need to be done; blueprints were all there. Still rapid constrution would accelerate the cost.

What cost $715,398 in 1996 would cost $964,708.89 in 2007, per the inflation calculator.

This means Shep needed to spend 322 billion yearly on nukes alone. That's in excess of the OMSK general war budget, in excess of Shep's "normal" war budget.

He's on total war right now already if he did it. On nukes alone, remember.

[Coyote]

The only way Saddamistan can support so much nuclear stockpileage is if his country is essentially a North Korea state, with barely functioning infrastructure and the people reduced to starving slavery-- so, in other words, it can happen, but... yeah. At best the rest of the conventional forces will be 70's-era refits piled atop refits.


As for the Libertian situation, I'm letting the rest of the MESS run stuff there for me, I was contemplating running Ramsley but decided to concentrate on the Neverhood. In my posted OOB (top of page 2 in the OOB sticky) I have naval forces posted on faraway bases-- they are available for MESS operations in and around the Libertopian Theater of Operations. Here they are:


BREAKDOWN BY FLEET ASSIGNMENT:


CANISSIAN CENTRAL SEAS FLEET: (Homeported out of Port Decisive, Shinra Republic)
91st CRUDIV:
RMS Columbia (Flagship); brevet-Commodore James Ross
RMS Celestra; Captain Ashley Winn

50th DESDIV:
RMS Grenada; Capt. Erich Horst
RMS Comoros: Capt. Ryan Greene

1st FRIGDIV:
RMS Apollo (Flagship); brevet-Commodore Steven Ramm
RMS Osiris; Capt. Yvette LaFleur
RMS Sleipnir; Capt. Richard "Ricky" Sevren

100th HYFOIL Squadron:
RMS Arthur; Corvette Captain Athena Rau
RMS Percival
RMS Galahad
RMS Kay

HK Team 001:
RMS Badger; Capt. Ramon deSantos
RMS Wolverine; Capt. Oscar Verjus
RMS Python


=======================================================================================


CANISSIAN SOUTHERN FLEET (Homeported out of Port Serenity, Gottland)

(SINGLE TICONDEROGA CRUISER ON DETACHED DUTY)
RMS Atlantica (Flag); Commodore Alex Manstein

52nd DESDIV:
RMS Owyhee (Flag); brevet-Commodore Rex Bartley
RMS Sonora; Capt. Randall Hearst

2nd FRIGDIV:
RMS Hera
RMS Heracles
RMS Damocles
RMS Ceres

102nd HYFOIL Squadron:
RMS Tauron; Corvette Captain Steve Anders
RMS Picon
RMS Caprica
RMS Gemonon

HK Team 002:
RMS Diamondback
RMS Anaconda
RMS Copperhead


=======================================================================================


CANISSIAN NORTH SEAS FLEET (Homeported out of Pearl Point, Canissia)

50th DESDIV:
RMS Grenada; Capt. Erich Horst
RMS Comoros: Capt. Ryan Greene

3rd FRIGDIV:
RMS Freya
RMS Osiris
RMS Odin
RMS Yggdrasil

103rd HYFOIL Squadron:
RMS Virgon
RMS Saggitaron
RMS Aerelon
RMS Scorpia

104th HYFOIL Squadron:
RMS Canceron
RMS Aquaria
RMS Leonis
RMS Libris

HK Team 003:
RMS Mamba
RMS Cottonmouth
RMS Watermocc


1st EXPEDITIONARY FORCE:

1 Neptune-class Assault Carrier w/MEU
1 Destroyer
2 Frigates
2 Pegasus
2 SSKs





In the Neverhood, I'll post a fleet and some operations there; for now I'm setting things up; details to follow.

[K. A. Pital]

Saddam addmited that Saddamistan does not have nuclear weapons in sizeable quantities - this is why he "needs" biological weapons; it's Shep who does apparently, and he had only 3 years of making them; while being in the OMSK.

I find the stockpile claim dubious and a lie, or Shep was very well at hiding just what kind of a dictatorship his nation is, spending 20% of GDP on nuclear weapon production.