SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK IV

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Voila, another loose end tied. (Or is it? )

[Shroom Man 777]

Prime Minister Shroom's brain is a loose end.

[PeZook]

This thing is no longer rational.

It's about pride and giant egos of two nuke-toting maniacs. All it would've taken to defuse the Libertian situation would be one diplomatic statement. Just one goddamned statetement on what you wanted to do, where and how.

Christ. Well, I'm off to sleep. I'm just really, really glad I'm not running PeZookia in real life

[DarthShady]

Christ. Well, I'm off to sleep. I'm just really, really glad I'm not running PeZookia in real life Very Happy

Me too. This doesn't look like it's going to end well.

PeZook check your PM's.

[Raj Ahten]

Shep, all we've heard about how stunning your offense would be. But what about your defence? What have you got? I haven't heard much about it and you'd be severly fucked up by what ever everyone else can throw at you.

Note: Indhopal would throw nothing at you. We are neutral here

[phongn]

Shep, all we've heard about how stunning your offense would be. But what about your defense? What have you got? I haven't heard much about it and you'd be severely fucked up by what ever everyone else can throw at you.

The ORBAT thread shows him having 320 F-22s plus 60 Patriot SAM batteries.

* grumble *

By the end of this game-year I was planning on having at least 48 F-111Js and additional F-114 and F-116 interceptors squadrons fielded. I was also considering getting rid of the CSGNs, because they frankly aren't that useful.

[Mr Bean]

Shep, all we've heard about how stunning your offense would be. But what about your defence? What have you got? I haven't heard much about it and you'd be severly fucked up by what ever everyone else can throw at you.

In ye-olden days the "shield" was a really good offense, specifically SCORECARD. On Zero hour SCORECARD would flush all it's KKV's while on the far side of the planet(And out of observation), a pre-set targeting plan would be loaded in then they would be initiatived. Since the old OMSK protocols called for first strike in the event of war, with a full system and proper targeting, the first thing anyone would know is a brief flash in the upper-atmosphere, far beyond the return range of most land based radar's, you would have to know where to look and be ready for it. Thus ensuring First strike success.

Toss in the speed, see a KKV gives off no signals, if you aim a powerful enough radar it's way you'd see it in orbit(And even AEGIS won't cut it trying to see a target over a 1000 km's away, you need a powerful land-based array)

So MESS fleets would have no idea of what was coming until the Thermal flash at 120km's when the atmosphere begins creating serious friction. At which point height combined with the attached single-shot booster rocket would have accelerated the KKV to between 11 KPS to 13.3 KPS depending on size at which point it would take less than ten seconds between the flash and strike.

Which means your national command authority has exactly eleven seconds between when the KKV hits the upper atompshere to decided to fire it's nukes, except we don't use ICBM's here(Wasteful) we used conventional bombers and cruise missiles. But by throwing enough KKV's into the atmosphere during OMSK days there were two three tungsten weapons targeted on every Mess naval ship(Sans Frigates) with "Referee" class targeted on the carriers. As long as they landed within half a mile of the carrier destruction was assured. (.7 mile hole over 500 meters deep, created on impact, any idea what happens to a carrier if it could fall 500 meters in free-fall? BAD THINGS)

So his "shield" if you call it that was a complete and utter destruction of the Mess Fleet, now your facing ships and an airfleet of near-equal size. Except... oops I dropped some KKV's on your airfields too, so you have land defenses VS ships tossing cruise missiles and an airforce which has a huge edge on yours.

There is no defense against them, you can't shoot them down, you can't laser them down either because of the time frame involved. Just a tungsten/steel KKV from space. Unless your an airplane you can't move fast enough to dodge

[Mr Bean]

Needless to say Sheppard does not have access to that any more, But I retain my Sword of Damocles for my own defense and he knows it, he knows how many systems I have on hand and he knows how much intel I have on his systems. One of the reason he keeps SAC operating 24/7 is because it's the only way to ensure I don't take his nukes away.

It was meant to be our hole card in the event of the OMSK/MESS fight, and needless to say, this is all Out Of Character knowledge until I use one on someone.

Since I'm being so open, my ABM tests? Also testing the accuracy of the KKV's(Pretty damn good, two meters)

[Mr Bean]

One last note, when did you build "Site M" Lonestar, I've had LANDSATS up for 24/7 Coverage since roughly March of 2009. It's hard to hide large underground digging when someone has that ability as Iran learned when they began burying their nuclear complex.

Simple issue with under ground digging is have to put the dirt SOMEWHERE and it's easy to follow that up. You can't exactly hide the initial digging, and it gets even worse after that. You might try digging via an existing Texas mine-complex and filling existing tunnels behind you, but then you still get shafted with the issue of trying to hide large equipment movements to the area.

[The Yosemite Bear]

There is a missing sub, The "Jack London" hasn't been heard from since the most recent disaster, may be damaged, currently carrying a compliment of Twelve conventional "Tomahawk" type missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angele ... _submarine

if anyone has spotted the "Jack London" please attempt to contact and assist the crew.

Where was the ship last sighted?

The London was on mission tracking surface ships near Libertopia, in an effort to identify and update target lists for potential Smuggler/Pirate ports. So it could be anywhere in the area effected by the Tsunami, since as per orders it was running silent, it just never came back in when it should have.

[Raj Ahten]

Well thanks for letting us all in on the secret. I would have no way to exploit that knowledge even if if I decided to use it in game, as my nation is too tiny to mean anything in a balls to the walls stretegic fight. I guess nuclear subs-o-death (with cruise missiles or balllistic missilles) would be an atractive option against such a system. Aren't some SSBN's around? They would at least be able to fire before being destroyed. If people end up finding out about the system, I imagine getting mobile ASAT weapons would also be a priority (again, mounted on subs so your satelites can't see them?).

[The Yosemite Bear]

Fuck. Bean, can my people receive the satellite readings?

See upcoming jack-booted stormtroopers.
Technically the FUN won't know since Stas used his GLADOS satellites for target practice for SPIRAL but I won't NOT inform Stas and by extension FUN.

How about my "stratalite"/Shrooms stratalite super high altitude near sattillite communications blimps? I generally keep some in and near the area to look for smuggling/piracy traffic?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Shep already told me in IM that he intends to send everything he has against the LSR and ignore all other targets, due to the LSR nuke fabrication facilities.

Which makes sense since he basically just granted that he wouldn't touch me by saying he wouldn't overfly the Bear Republic.

Neutral/FUN with more airforce then any other branch of service. Since I've been at work all day, and this shit storm actually happened 10 minutes before I had to leave for work, I'm a tad pissy right now.

[phongn]

No offense, Bean, but I'm going to have to insist on some numbers here for your Rods from God.

[Lonestar]

One last note, when did you build "Site M" Lonestar, I've had LANDSATS up for 24/7 Coverage since roughly March of 2009. It's hard to hide large underground digging when someone has that ability as Iran learned when they began burying their nuclear complex.

Simple issue with under ground digging is have to put the dirt SOMEWHERE and it's easy to follow that up. You can't exactly hide the initial digging, and it gets even worse after that. You might try digging via an existing Texas mine-complex and filling existing tunnels behind you, but then you still get shafted with the issue of trying to hide large equipment movements to the area.

It isn't necessarily underground.



Site "B"(in the "Big Bend" of Texas) is, as is the bunker in Big Thicket(Site "T")

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The world still breathes? Wow... I'm about to go to work though. Not much I can do in the next few hours. Though, I'm going to say that my citizens are hunkered down deep in the mountains of Anatolia and deep in the hills of Greece after months of furious blasting with explosives, with supplies and all. Intended to be more elaborate, but hey, there wasn't enough time.

[Coyote]

Shep... you have more tankers than most people have air force.

So, tankers + ground crews... barracks for them all... admin people for them, pay and upkeep, plus the hundreds of hundreds of bombers those tankers are feeding, their crews, ground crews, facilities and sustainment; each bomber carries expensive nukes, their designers & handlers, all this on top of other conventional forces...

We have to remember the biggest of our nations are about the size of California, if that. They have 1st-world living standards and expectations, they won't take it well if they are put into a North Korea style 'state war machine'. There is a need for an economy.

[Coyote]

Okay, quick, while Shep & Skimmer are asleep...

Shep put down the bong, the curlicue of smoke coiling past his head. He felt so peaceful, so happy.... and mellow. Some Doritos would be good about now. Next to him, Skimmer had a dreamy smile on his face as he put the "Harold & Kumar go to White Castle" DVD back in it's case.

"Duuude," Skimmer siad, "This is good shit. Wanna watch the Jay & Silen Bob series?"
"Yeah, man," Shep said. "First, let me call the 69th People Field Hula Platoon," he said. Both men started giggling hysterically. The call was made, and the beautiful ladies of the 69th Field Hula trotted in, dancing and gyrating to the delight of the two world leaders.

"Dude," Skimmer said as they passed the bong back & forth.
"Duuude," Shep said.

"Let's just mellow here and forget that war stuff, mang," Shep said.
"Yeaaah, man... mang," Skimmer said. They laughed again.

"We need some Doritos," Shep mumbled.
"Duuuude."

[Mr Bean]

No offense, Bean, but I'm going to have to insist on some numbers here for your Rods from God.

Basics
Plug in 1400 km for the orbit ant 15300 for the Projectile Density
Astroid impact calculator
Weights

Weight of Iron Per Cubic Foot(Ranging Tests)=450 Pounds(.217 metric tons) per Foot(.3 Meters)

Weight of PureTungsten per Cubic Foot=1224 pounds(.555 Metric tons)

Weight of Tungstun/Steel Mix per Cubic foot=980 Pounds(.444 Metric tons)

Office of Weaponry wrote:

"Goal-Keeper" (Anti-Ship/Anti-Control)
Tungsten carbide Penetrator/Casing
Carbon Steel Core
3 Ton GPS Guided Kinetic Kill Weapon(6 Meter)
From 1,400 km orbit to ground

One final note, the asteroid impact calculator assumes a non-powered object, which is incorrect in this example since my KKV's have half ton to two ton(Counting fuel) engines atop them boosting them until impact.

Just orbing around the earth it has a 7-KPS speed. When it de-orbits a large enough booster could push it as high as 25Kps. However it does not have that large a booster or enough time. In short it boosts this KKV to around 14KPS and fights against the slow-down while fighting. This results in a 11KPS delivery.

Even without the rocket it would land at 5.9KPS with .58 Kiltons worth of energy(580 tons of explosive force) with the speed boost to 20KPS(Final impact speed 10.9 Kps) that jumps to 19 Kiltons yield.

You can simulate this one of two ways, one breaking out the formula and adding in the extra accelerate number(And it's NOT fun math) or you can do a quick and dirty method and simply boost the initial speed high enough to get the 11KPS figure when it hits. I chose the later to get easier numbers.

It's well within the possibility to get an object going that speed to fall "down" at 11KPS. The intial "RODS FROM GOD" paper said that we could built boosters for the types of weapons I'm describing to get them up to 15 KPS before impact if you put them in a high enough orbit.

[phongn]

You don't have that many satellites - how can you ensure that you're flying over the proper spot? And three-ton rods? How many launches did you use to throw all this stuff up?

I don't think you can accurately guide them, either, since closing velocity is so high - much higher than even an ICBM RV. You'll also have to worry about ablation issues, and now anyone surviving is going to be seriously considering shooting at your satellites with surviving weapons (should you release)

EDIT: That said ... man, anyone underneath one of those things is going to be in for a world o'hurt.

[Master_Baerne]

Hmmm. On behalf of the FUN, how much do these Rods from God cost?

[phongn]

A lot of money, Baerne, and you shortly will have much more pressing things to worry about.

[CmdrWilkens]

Shep... you have more tankers than most people have air force.

So, tankers + ground crews... barracks for them all... admin people for them, pay and upkeep, plus the hundreds of hundreds of bombers those tankers are feeding, their crews, ground crews, facilities and sustainment; each bomber carries expensive nukes, their designers & handlers, all this on top of other conventional forces...

We have to remember the biggest of our nations are about the size of California, if that. They have 1st-world living standards and expectations, they won't take it well if they are put into a North Korea style 'state war machine'. There is a need for an economy.

Which also doesn't address how he got to his current fighter/bomber levels. I count 769 combat aircraft (excluding his Tankers). That's 198 naval combat aircraft and 571 land based fighters/bombers/combatant craft.

Oh and that was his original OP so it was already 169 over allotment so Shep unless you completely eliminated you NAval Air Wings I'd like to know what aircraft you are going to slash out.

[Mr Bean]

You don't have that many satellites - how can you ensure that you're flying over the proper spot? And three-ton rods? How many launches did you use to throw all this stuff up?

I don't think you can accurately guide them, either, since closing velocity is so high - much higher than even an ICBM RV. You'll also have to worry about ablation issues, and now anyone surviving is going to be seriously considering shooting at your satellites with surviving weapons (should you release)

EDIT: That said ... man, anyone underneath one of those things is going to be in for a world o'hurt.

The VULKAN's. A Full scale sixth stage Vulkan can toss 170 Tons into into Orbit, I went for the heaviest lifter in existence. Each HISCO Satellite(Hey there dual purpose! Remember Phong? Who needs highly over engineered Internet satellite?) carries up to 65 tons worth of weapons. The Internet part of the satellite including uplinks only takes up 3 tons, leaving 7 for military gear and five left for basic satellite parts and the steel frame needed to hold the thing togther while it was being launched.

Again all out of character information, but the HISCO satellites are just carriers, by loading the satellite up with KKV's to prevent early detection and let me get up full systems in one shot. Vulkan's have power to burn but not infinte room.

The way it works is thus FYI
HISCO satellite, 75 tons worth of Internet Satellite at 1,400 km orbit, loaded down with two to eighteen to sixty KKV's. Gets to it's orbit, doors swing open "fuel tanks" get tossed out, fuel tanks use limited station-keep small scale thrusts to get in formation around HISCO Satellite. They have a limited endurance and can only station-keep for about four months, then their orbit begins decaying. Lucky I have all sorts of empty ocean to shoot them at

I have forty five HISCO satellites in orbit, with a total of 1,120 KKV's of various sizes ready to use .


And here's the part, the key part. Because the HISCO are only carriers I'm free to deploy everything on the far size of the planet where no one can see, move them into the correct orbit to execute strikes, then be back in position. KKV's are rather small objects, hard to pick up, let alone hit.

At best say you shoot one. Good job, now there's a three to fifty eight ton rock that's going to impact the earth somewhere. And that'a assuming I don't simply shoot the KKV at whatever is trying to destroy it.

Yes you could toss ABM missiles up... except your going to need a few years of development. Nothing short of a dedicated Kill-sat can get to 1,400 KM.

The US can barely hit something at 500 KM, the Chinese managed to smash something at 913km. This is 1,400 KM and a solid hunk of Tungsten with an engine atop if. Trying to shoot it down is impossible. It's not delicate it's a frigging rock. Only the engine is destroyable to traditional ASM's

And again that assumes I don't simply fire the KKV at the country trying to shoot it down.

[Mr Bean]

Two final notes. Yields on the smallest KKV(ABM) is from 690 Tons, largest is 20 Megaton's

500 Ton "Sailor Hat" Test where the piled up 500 tons of TNT and set them off.

Sailor Hat Test(Plus Nuclear torpedo! 3 Megs)

This is how far away the ship in the video is away from the explosive yet it manages to crush the hanger and break every window on the ship as well as toss the ship sideways.

Of course a KKV is not focused out like the Sailor Hat test, its not a chemical explosion. It's a ground level explosion, however the ABM's except in emergences are not to be used against ground targets, my smallest KKV foreground targeting is designed for 15 kilton-23 Kilton. These I fire at ships. Now lets say I miss by 200 meters. That's fine, the shock-wave and the fact that a few hundred thousand gallons of sea-water just got vaporised means the ship is now in free-fall which is A Bad Thing(TM) it has a good chance of capsizing rendering it a combat loss. Failing that the shock wave is enough to cripple radar, jam missile doors and of course crush any non-reinforce parts of the hull. Lets say I missed by 100 meters, well now the PSI is high enough to destroy all that gear before free-fall and possible capsizing. 50 Meters? Now I've got enough PSI to crush the hull.


Second note, Accuracy
Accuracy is better than you think as the KKV can fired "down" on the target because of speed of acceleration you can move it so it will orbit "exactly" over the target in question, then fire down at such a high speed that the ablation issue is solved simply by shaping the missile for maximum airflow. Remember they are only exposed to sufficient atmosphere for the last 120 km's of their run. They've already had over a full minute to accelerate, which means that all ablation will occur during the last eleven seconds of their run.

Much like with ICBM's, they don't need to last long, and there's only so far you can drift off course in that eleven second window.