Wookiepedia WTF Death Star 2 accuracy and IG-88

[Isolder74]

Not when they upscale the Superlaser in terms of power and precison/reliability. That is going to introduce a WHOLE lot of factors to test and address with regards to overall targeting. Surely you don't think that only targeting computers/software are relevant to accuracy?

I don't think it's the only thing, but given that Palpatine's trap for the Rebel fleet was apparently designed with the intent to pick their capital ships off with the superlaser, I see no reason to believe that the gunnery crew operating the superlaser wasn't fully prepared to hit smaller targets. If they drilled as much as the crew for the original Death Star did then they had quite a bit of practice before firing the weapon the first time.

INDEED. A major part of the job of a targeting computer is to help you hit the target. I might grant that IG-88 would have been better at it then a non sentient computer might have been but it is a huge stretch to claim that the normal core would have been hugely worse at lining up the targets then he would have.

edit: Also the story only implys that IG-88 enjoys making the laser hit. It never saws that they couldn't have hit without his help or that the normal computer could not have done the same.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not when they upscale the Superlaser in terms of power and precison/reliability. That is going to introduce a WHOLE lot of factors to test and address with regards to overall targeting. Surely you don't think that only targeting computers/software are relevant to accuracy?

I don't think it's the only thing, but given that Palpatine's trap for the Rebel fleet was apparently designed with the intent to pick their capital ships off with the superlaser, I see no reason to believe that the gunnery crew operating the superlaser wasn't fully prepared to hit smaller targets. If they drilled as much as the crew for the original Death Star did then they had quite a bit of practice before firing the weapon the first time.

You are evidentply presuming that because the DS1 was shown to have a fully functional and accurate superlaser, the DS2's superlaser should AUTOMAITCALLY be just as accurate, as if for some bizarre reason they just stuck the DS1 superlaser into the DS2, even though we know it didn't happen.

[Master_Baerne]

As said computer core was, as far as everybody knew, doing exactly what it SHOULD be doing, while I hate that story as much as everybody else, until somebody shows the Imperials NOTICED that Computer Core was tampered with, there was no REASON for them to take action in the firat place.

Meaning that if IG-88 screwed with something important, and the Imperials found out it was a computer-related problem, they could remove it. Not that they should have removed it during the battle, as it was, as you say, behaving perfectly.

[Darth Fanboy]

You are evidentply presuming that because the DS1 was shown to have a fully functional and accurate superlaser, the DS2's superlaser should AUTOMAITCALLY be just as accurate, as if for some bizarre reason they just stuck the DS1 superlaser into the DS2, even though we know it didn't happen.

Why should should I believe that the Empire, after building the first Death Star, would build intetionally a second one whose weapon was less accurate to the point where it could not hit targets as well as the first?

Palpatine's trap for the Rebel Fleet utilized the superlaser to hit small targets. Your rebuttal does not answer why Palpatine would do this if the superlaser wasn't designed with this purpose in mind (not as the primary purpose of course, but an obviously effective one)?

edit: fixed quote tags

[Illuminatus Primus]

This seems to me academic, the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels states that the Death Star II had enhanced targeting precision, specifically with reference to using the prime weapon against individual starships.

[Master_Baerne]

Even if a sentient computer would be better at aiming the superlaser than a non-sentient one, it seems that there would be a surplus of droids, possibly designed for just such an eventuality, already aboard.

[Connor MacLeod]

Why should should I believe that the Empire, after building the first Death Star, would build intetionally a second one whose weapon was less accurate to the point where it could not hit targets as well as the first?

Palpatine's trap for the Rebel Fleet utilized the superlaser to hit small targets. Your rebuttal does not answer why Palpatine would do this if the superlaser wasn't designed with this purpose in mind (not as the primary purpose of course, but an obviously effective one)?

edit: fixed quote tags

Right. So you're telling me weapon recoil, the size/mass of the weapon, and the associated components for targeting (keeping the component beams focused and unified, for example), nevermind accounting for the INCREASES in firepower between the DS1 and 2 (which will both further complicate the recoil/bracing and weapon size/mass issue.) - all have NO relevance at all on accuracy? By your logic, a small point defense laser and a big turret should be able to perform identically!

Edit: Mike has, in fact, addressed t his issue before regarding Turbolasers hitting X-wings. Same principle applies. Even if we somehow assumed they directly transferred the targeting computers of the DS1 to the DS2, and they needed no modification to acount for differences in DS2 design, and that the targeting computers could PERFECTLY track any large warship, there are still a number of physical limitations to a weapon that can guarantee a miss, even assuming a perfectly stationary target at point blank range. Especially if they've never done a "live fire" exercise of the weapon (the DS2 was supposed to be believed nonfunctional, remember?)

Double edit: To further emphasize the latter point, we know the DS1 superlaser needed refinement once the station was completed - it didn't work 100% perfectly the first time either. Why we would assume the DS2 automatically would (especially for something which is, for all intents and purposes, a rather extraordinary feat of engineering) is beyond me.

[Darth Yoshi]

It makes sense for there to be error margins for the DS2 superlaser. After all, prior to the battle there weren't any real opportunities to ops check and calibrate the systems.

Of course, that doesn't make IG-88 taking over any less retarded.

[Batman]

It makes sense for there to be error margins for the DS2 superlaser. After all, prior to the battle there weren't any real opportunities to ops check and calibrate the systems.

Why the hell not? Endor is obviously at the back end of nowhere else the construction of the DSII couldn't have been kept secret to begin with. Unless the superlaser came online mere hours before the Rebel fleet arrived they had plenty of time to ops check and calibrate the systems.
They'd no doubt have to do it all over again once the bloody thing was completed but there's no reason (that I know of) to assume the DSII's superlaser WASN'T working within designed parameters even before IG-88 messed things up.

[Darth Yoshi]

What are they going to ops check on? The whole point is to make sure the superlaser is going where the computer tells it to, which you can't do by simply firing into deep space.

[Batman]

Err yes you can, at least with Wars sensors. Besides, what's keeping them from putting up practice targets?

[Connor MacLeod]

Err yes you can, at least with Wars sensors. Besides, what's keeping them from putting up practice targets?

Probe droid spam, or whatever means they used to monitor/detect Kamino's presence in the galaxy despite it being erased from records in AOTC. Its not neccearily going to require/take ONE test firing to fix this, and even one test increases the odds of giving away Palpy's plan as well. I'd hardly be s urprised if Palpy made the (stupid) decision to hold off on any testing just to keep his secret - a good chunk of the Endor Debacle was due to Palpy's stupid decisionmaking (at least in a militaery/technical sense)

[Batman]

Err yes you can, at least with Wars sensors. Besides, what's keeping them from putting up practice targets?

Probe droid spam, or whatever means they used to monitor/detect Kamino's presence in the galaxy despite it being erased from records in AOTC.

Um-the very means used to confirm it's continued presence in AotC. Gravity.
This is going to help them detect a shipkiller superlaser blast how, exactly?

Its not neccearily going to require/take ONE test firing to fix this, and even one test increases the odds of giving away Palpy's plan as well.

Not any more than building the DSII in the first place.

I'd hardly be s urprised if Palpy made the (stupid) decision to hold off on any testing just to keep his secret - a good chunk of the Endor Debacle was due to Palpy's stupid decisionmaking (at least in a military/technical sense)

I'm giving you Palpy being stupid enough to FORBID testing the superlaser but there's no reason they should avoid doing it due to risking detection.

[Connor MacLeod]

Probe droid spam, or whatever means they used to monitor/detect Kamino's presence in the galaxy despite it being erased from records in AOTC.

Um-the very means used to confirm it's continued presence in AotC. Gravity.[/quote]



Which they used SENSORS to detect. Or do you think they just dropped heavy objects in space and see where they fell towards?

I also notice you decided to ignore the "probe droid" issue (which is likely how they also detected Kamino in AOTC - some sort of probe/satellite network throughout the galaxy, probably tied to the Holonet.)

This is going to help them detect a shipkiller superlaser blast how, exactly?

Because the destruction of any object (particularily vaporization) is going to release large amounts of energy that will be detectable to sensors? Or are you going ot assume the Superlaser violates thermodynamics?

Not any more than building the DSII in the first place.

Right, lets equate construction with weapons testing. Large scale construction projects NEVER occur in the Star Wars galaxy after all, do they?

A weapons test, particularily of the DS2's magnitude, is going to be a TAD more detectable and unusual than a mere construction project. Especially when testing would (logically) involve testing all the output levels (including blowing up planets.)

I'll also point out we have no evidence that they moved the DS2 around to do such high end tests (nro mention of any large planets, gas giants, or whatnot disappearing.) Which would further tend to suggest they did not actually do any test firings (or are you going to tell me they'd only "partially" test it?)

I'm giving you Palpy being stupid enough to FORBID testing the superlaser but there's no reason they should avoid doing it due to risking detection.

Right, because its impossible for SW to deploy probe droids or any other means of long range detectable technologies and they were determined to maintain secrecy.

[Darth Fanboy]

snip

By my logic? How about by WHAT WE FUCKING SAW IN RETURN OF THE JEDI?

You still do not give any reason why Palpatine would use the DS II in his trap for the Rebel Fleet if the DS II was not suitable for this purpose. I am not going against the logic of what you are saying, but what we see on screen is the DS II hitting Capital ships and not once during the battle does the superlaser appear to miss, I haven't read the novelization so I can't account for that source.

Do you think that the DS II would have missed without being "infected" by IG-88? Do you think that, if KJA's story went unwritten then the discussion would be moot?

edit: typo

[Connor MacLeod]

snip

By my logic? How about by WHAT WE FUCKING SAW IN RETURN OF THE JEDI?

Be my guest. Point out the evidence which explicitly refutes the TotBH novel. And try for something more substnatial than "your interpretation because you don't like KJA."

You still do not give any reason why Palpatine would use the DS II in his trap for the Rebel Fleet if the DS II was not suitable for this purpose. I am not going against the logic of what you are saying, but what we see on screen is the DS II hitting Capital ships and not once during the battle does the superlaser appear to miss, I haven't read the novelization so I can't account for that source.

Again, what makes you even think they tested the superlaser? You're assuming technical or military competence in Palpatine that is not neccesarily there (in fact there's plenty of evidence, particularily oriented towards ROTJ, to suggest he made plenty of moronic decisions there.)

your entire argument is apparently "movies trump EU" but you fail to actually point out any definitive contradiction beyond what you choose ot interpret (or believe.) Which is not proof at all. Do you really need this explained to you?

Do you think that the DS II would have missed without being "infected" by IG-88?

Yes, it could have. I've just explained this. I've linked to valid reasons WHY it could miss even if we assumed they had nigh-perfect targeting computers. How much more clearly do you need this explained to you?

Do you think that, if KJA's story went unwritten then the discussion would be moot?

Obviously, since there would be no evidence for IG-88 actually being in the DS's computer, would there? What's your fucking point?

[Batman]

Probe droid spam, or whatever means they used to monitor/detect Kamino's presence in the galaxy despite it being erased from records in AOTC.

Um-the very means used to confirm it's continued presence in AotC. Gravity.

Which they used SENSORS to detect. Or do you think they just dropped heavy objects in space and see where they fell towards?

No. They did what they were explicitely stated to do in AotC-notice that guess what, Kamino's gravitational influence on the rest of the universe didn't go away.

I also notice you decided to ignore the "probe droid" issue

I did no such thing.

(which is likely how they also detected Kamino in AOTC - some sort of probe/satellite network throughout the galaxy, probably tied to the Holonet.)

Hello? It is outright stated in AotC that the way they detected Kamino was gravity saying there had to be a planet where their charts said there isn't.

This is going to help them detect a shipkiller superlaser blast how, exactly?

Because the destruction of any object (particularily vaporization) is going to release large amounts of energy that will be detectable to sensors? Or are you going ot assume the Superlaser violates thermodynamics?

No. I DO assume the energy release needed to kill a practice target, or a capital ship at that, is rather drowned out by the star the DSII is orbiting.
If it ISN'T, one wonders why those sensors didn't detect the reactor POWERING the aforementioned shots.

Not any more than building the DSII in the first place.

Right, lets equate construction with weapons testing. Large scale construction projects NEVER occur in the Star Wars galaxy after all, do they?

No clue. I fail to see how that is relevant.

A weapons test, particularily of the DS2's magnitude, is going to be a TAD more detectable and unusual than a mere construction project.

The term 'no' comes to mind.

Especially when testing would (logically) involve testing all the output levels (including blowing up planets.)

Baseless assumption.

I'll also point out we have no evidence that they moved the DS2 around to do such high end tests (nro mention of any large planets, gas giants, or whatnot disappearing.)

Which means they didn't test the DSII at full power. I can't recall ever claiming they did.

Which would further tend to suggest they did not actually do any test firings (or are you going to tell me they'd only "partially" test it?)

This is a trick question, right?

Right, because its impossible for SW to deploy probe droids or any other means of long range detectable technologies and they were determined to maintain secrecy.

Which, if they existed to the extent to which you want them to, would have detected the DSII project REGARDLESS:

[Darth Fanboy]

Be my guest. Point out the evidence which explicitly refutes the TotBH novel. And try for something more substnatial than "your interpretation because you don't like KJA."

The fact that Palpatine was going to use the DS II superlaser anyway to target capital ships. Just because IG-88 did what he did does not make the superlaser incapable of working as you would suggest. Having the weapon work in this way must have been a plan from the beginning.

Again, what makes you even think they tested the superlaser?

What makes you think that they wouldn't have tested the weapon? The stations weaponry and defenses all appeared to be complete, don't you think that they would have tested these things before declaring them operational? Do you think Palpatine would have used himself as bait on board a station he did not have full confidence in?

You're assuming technical or military competence in Palpatine that is not neccesarily there (in fact there's plenty of evidence, particularily oriented towards ROTJ, to suggest he made plenty of moronic decisions there.)

And you're assuming Palpatine is going to risk his own person on technology that isn't up to the task he has set forth. Considering how careful Palpatine is when it comes to his own security, no matter how arrogant he became, I doubt he would put all his hope onto a Superlaser that wasn't up to knocking out the ships as he planned.

So your entire argument is apparently "movies trump EU" but you fail to actually point out any definitive contradiction beyond what you choose ot interpret (or believe.) Which is not proof at all. Do you really need this explained to you?

Jesus shit, I am not saying movies trump EU. I'll simplify, since you seem to be unable to understand.

-The movies depict a trap that involves using the DS II Superlaser to destroy the capital ships of the Rebel Fleet one by one.
-From this, we can assume that destroying capital ships was one of the purposes, albeit not the primary purpose, of the DS II superlaser.
-The lame ass IG-88 story shows IG-88 fiddling with the accuracy, but this does not mean that the DS II was incapable of targeting capital ships.

Yes, it could have. I've just explained this. I've linked to valid reasons WHY it could miss even if we assumed they had nigh-perfect targeting computers. How much more clearly do you need this explained to you?

"Could" does not equal "would" as you seem to be pushing for. I don't see how your reasons why the superlaser could miss, mean that the ship will miss, which again is what you seem to be pushing for. I've also pointed out how the Empire has drilled gunnery crew in the past even before actual superlaser firing with the DS I. Which shows evidence that (given training) a human gunnery crew is capable of hitting a capital ship and that a powerful AI is not a requirement.

Obviously, since there would be no evidence for IG-88 actually being in the DS's computer, would there? What's your fucking point?

Because you seem unable to believe that the DS II's superlaser would be able to hit capital ships otherwise. the way you describe the superlaser problems, it's as if without IG-88 the Rebels wouldn't have lost a single ship to the DS II superlaser.

[Darth Fanboy]

This seems to me academic, the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels states that the Death Star II had enhanced targeting precision, specifically with reference to using the prime weapon against individual starships.

Missed this. Very good point IP.

[Ender]

No. They did what they were explicitly stated to do in AotC-notice that guess what, Kamino's gravitational influence on the rest of the universe didn't go away.

And how, pray tell, would they detect a gravitational interaction without some sort of sensor to detect it? You do realize that even a fucking telescope constitutes a sensor, right?

I also notice you decided to ignore the "probe droid" issue

I did no such thing.

Thi is priceless. Not only do you refuse to address the point, but when calle on it, you simply state you did and then refuse to address the point!

Probe droid spams are quite possible. More to the point, the Republic was able to scour the entire galaxy to find Grevious in a day or two (ROTS takes place over the course of a mere 6 days). Care to explain either of those possibilities?

Hello? It is outright stated in AotC that the way they detected Kamino was gravity saying there had to be a planet where their charts said there isn't.

Hey dumbshit, how do you remotely detect gravity without some sort of sensor?

No. I DO assume the energy release needed to kill a practice target, or a capital ship at that, is rather drowned out by the star the DSII is orbiting.

Even if the shots were the same power, the target would be mess massive then the star, and thus have a greater luminosity. And if they shot the star, it would generate a massive CME.

If it ISN'T, one wonders why those sensors didn't detect the reactor POWERING the aforementioned shots.

Way to torpedo your own argument. That provides a very good explanation of why they wouldn't want to test it in the first place.

No clue. I fail to see how that is relevant.

They happen all the fucking time, so there is nothing extraordinary about it. How stupid are you that you don't see the relevance of that point?

A weapons test, particularily of the DS2's magnitude, is going to be a TAD more detectable and unusual than a mere construction project.

The term 'no' comes to mind.

Stunning counter-argument. Aiming to get this HOSed?

Baseless assumption.

Are you just trolling this thread now? The entire point of a test is to make sure it works, you are claiming that they would have done a test, but not tested to make sure it works?

Which means they didn't test the DSII at full power. I can't recall ever claiming they did.

Firstly, not testing it at full power would defeat the purpose of a test. Secondly even if it was in the 10^27 range needed to one-shot capital ships, he target would be so energetic that it would outshine the star!

Though in fact Connor's statement was incorrect, Endor itself is said to have disappeared by artificial means. But its destruction by a fireing test is unlikely as that would have destroyed the forest moon long before the DS2 came raining down.

This is a trick question, right?

I know longer believe this is sarcasm, but instead that you are truly this confused.

Which, if they existed to the extent to which you want them to, would have detected the DSII project REGARDLESS:

A huge base being built is nothing notable - nothing even says the Empire is doing it, it could be a corporation building a shipyard, base, etc. A superweapon being tested is highly noticeable.

[Darth Hoth]

With regards to Kamino, did they not detect it by "tracking" its gravity shadow through observation of the rest of the system, similar to the way we could calculate the existence of the outermost planets of our system even before we had the telescopes to directly obseve them? A gravity mass could be observed by what effect it has on other objects such as planets in the vicinity.

[Illuminatus Primus]

With regards to Kamino, did they not detect it by "tracking" its gravity shadow through observation of the rest of the system, similar to the way we could calculate the existence of the outermost planets of our system even before we had the telescopes to directly obseve them? A gravity mass could be observed by what effect it has on other objects such as planets in the vicinity.

Had to be other stars. The star's emissions could not be erased and if you have the sensitivity to pick up planets you definitely could pick up the star (besides, Kamino has intense weather, and weather is a thermodynamic phenomena driven by uneven heating by starlight).

[Darth Hoth]

With regards to Kamino, did they not detect it by "tracking" its gravity shadow through observation of the rest of the system, similar to the way we could calculate the existence of the outermost planets of our system even before we had the telescopes to directly obseve them? A gravity mass could be observed by what effect it has on other objects such as planets in the vicinity.

Had to be other stars. The star's emissions could not be erased and if you have the sensitivity to pick up planets you definitely could pick up the star (besides, Kamino has intense weather, and weather is a thermodynamic phenomena driven by uneven heating by starlight).

That would depend; was it the entire system that had been erased, or merely the planet? (Yes, it was a while since I last watched the film...)

[Ender]

With regards to Kamino, did they not detect it by "tracking" its gravity shadow through observation of the rest of the system, similar to the way we could calculate the existence of the outermost planets of our system even before we had the telescopes to directly obseve them?

Seeing as how telescopes were used to collect the data to formulate the theories like Kepler's laws and universal gravitation, I'm gonna go ahead and ask you to kick your history teacher in the nuts. First notes from astronomers about optical telescopes are in the 1000's. Gallelio used a telescope, as did Kepler (in fact Kepler invented his own refracting telescope)

A gravity mass could be observed by what effect it has on other objects such as planets in the vicinity.

Yes, but to see the stars to measure them, you need a telescope.

[Isolder74]

With regards to Kamino, did they not detect it by "tracking" its gravity shadow through observation of the rest of the system, similar to the way we could calculate the existence of the outermost planets of our system even before we had the telescopes to directly obseve them? A gravity mass could be observed by what effect it has on other objects such as planets in the vicinity.

Had to be other stars. The star's emissions could not be erased and if you have the sensitivity to pick up planets you definitely could pick up the star (besides, Kamino has intense weather, and weather is a thermodynamic phenomena driven by uneven heating by starlight).

That would depend; was it the entire system that had been erased, or merely the planet? (Yes, it was a while since I last watched the film...)

The entire system was erased.