Who's REALLY responsible for the food crisis? (Hint: Reagan)

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Who's REALLY responsible for the food crisis? (Hint: Reagan)

Post by Darth Wong »

Interesting reading about a seriously overlooked cause of the global food crisis:

Link
Feeding frenzy

One big culprit in the global food crisis has been overlooked: The money. Pension and index funds used a loophole to plow hundreds of billions of dollars into commodities markets

SINCLAIR STEWART AND PAUL WALDIE

sstewart@globeandmail.com; pwaldie@globeandmail.com

May 31, 2008

LARNED, KAN. -- Tom Giessel rubs the heel of his palm against his forehead, exhales a moment, and then begins again, trying to make sense of how the global food market has suddenly descended into chaos.

He is seated on a couch in his modest white farmhouse, surrounded by acres of wheat that in a few days will begin to flower, blanketing this central Kansas town with millions of tiny green beards. Beside him, a sheaf of dried wheat spills out of a vase, while across the room, a stylized crucifix looms above the entrance to the kitchen, a solitary stem writhing on the cross.

For three generations, grain has been his family's lifeblood, a source of sustenance and pride, reward and hardship.

Mr. Giessel, 55, lived through the Russian Wheat Deal in the 1970s, when a sudden rise in exports to the Soviet Union sparked a boom in prices. He has endured credit crises, political embargoes, and the vicissitudes of weather and drought.

Yet in the more than 3½ decades he has been farming, he has never seen anything quite like this. The prices of wheat, corn, soybeans and rice more than doubled in value in the span of several months, sowing equal measures of confusion and fear in the American heartland. Commodities markets, where these prices take their cue, have become so unpredictable that farmers now liken them to blackjack tables in Las Vegas.

At the same time, the costs of fertilizer, herbicides and fuel - all crucial to agriculture - have skyrocketed to record heights: Mr. Giessel's expenses alone jumped half a million dollars in the past year, twice what they normally are.

"It used to be that I could figure on things from year to year," shrugs Mr. Giessel, a stout man with dark eyes, thick forearms and a weathered countenance. "But now it's like driving down the road with no headlights. You can look out the window and see the white lines, but you don't know what the hell you're going to hit. This is the most risk I've been exposed to since I started farming."

The problems here go well beyond the Kansas border. The record escalation of food prices has played havoc with every link in the food chain, from grain merchants to futures markets, from publicly traded food companies to consumers.

Producers such as Mr. Giessel now find themselves on the front line of a mushrooming global crisis, one that has sparked violent protests in some of the world's poorest countries, prompting aid agencies to warn of a pending humanitarian catastrophe.

In the search for answers, pundits have attempted to pin the blame on the usual suspects: rising demand from China and India, bad crop conditions and booming ethanol production.

Yet one major culprit behind these gyrating markets and unprecedented price spikes has been largely overlooked: the deep-pocketed pension and index funds upon which most Canadians and Americans depend for their retirements.

These funds have plowed tens of billions of dollars into agricultural commodities as a way to diversify their assets and improve returns for their investors.

The amount of fund money invested in commodity indexes has climbed from just $13-billion (U.S.) in 2003 to a staggering $260-billion in March, 2008, according to calculations based on regulatory filings.

Michael Masters, a veteran U.S. hedge fund manager, warned a Senate hearing this month that this number could easily quadruple to $1-trillion, if pension funds allocate a greater portion of their portfolio to commodities, as some consultants suggest they are poised to do. Because agricultural markets are small - relative to stock markets - the amount of cash pouring in gives these funds substantial clout. Mr. Masters estimated that that these big institutional investors control enough wheat futures to supply the needs of American consumers for the next two years, and blamed the "demand shock" from these recent entrants to the commodities markets as arguably the primary factor behind the sudden take-off in food prices.

"If immediate action is not taken, food and energy prices will rise higher still," he told the hearing. "This could have catastrophic economic effects on millions of already stressed U.S. consumers. It literally could mean starvation for millions of the world's poor."

The massive influx of cash has only occurred in the past few years. But its roots stretch back to the Reagan era, when a court battle over oil price manipulation set off a domino effect that would ultimately transform the arcane world of commodities trading.

Beginning with the energy market, regulators made a series of far-reaching decisions that gradually loosened oversight of complex commodity derivatives and created loopholes for large speculators, allowing them to trade virtually unlimited amounts of corn, wheat and other food futures.

Only now, nearly two decades later, are the full consequences of those decisions being felt.

We're not in Kansas any more

For months, governments and international bodies have been struggling to avert catastrophe. The United Nations created a special task force on food security and called for emergency donations. Leaders of the world's wealthiest countries are expected to make the food crisis a priority when they gather for a G8 summit in July.

And the U.S. Congress has convened hearings into the matter, as have various other governmental and regulatory bodies around the world, all in an attempt to understand how markets and prices careened out of control.

They would do well to ask Fowler West. At a pivotal moment almost 20 years ago, Mr. West warned that a series of rapid-fire moves to deregulate commodities trading could wreak unintended - and perhaps calamitous - effects on these markets.

His alarms went unheeded.

In the early 1990s, Mr. West held a seat as a commissioner on the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, the U.S. regulator charged with overseeing trading in hundreds of staple items, from corn and wheat to oil and cotton. Mr. West was a lifelong Democrat; his boss, CFTC chair Wendy Gramm, was a devout Republican and a believer in the laissez-faire, free-market philosophy espoused by president Ronald Reagan, who once described her as his "favourite economist."

In the fall of 1990, the two clashed over the CFTC's response to a New York court decision involving a little-known Bermuda energy company called Transnor Ltd.

Long forgotten by most, Transnor paved the way for wide-ranging deregulation of commodities trading, an effort that helped to spur the rise of Enron Corp. and which has enabled the stampede of large fund speculators into food markets.

In the winter of 1986, Transnor filed suit against some of the world's largest oil companies, alleging that they manipulated prices on the Brent market, an informal oil trading system that at the time determined the daily price of oil.

At first, few paid attention to the lawsuit. That all changed on April 18, 1990, when Judge William Conner delivered a stunning ruling midway through the trial.

The case hinged on drawing a key distinction: Were the 15-day oil contracts that traded on the Brent market "forward contracts" or "futures contracts"?

In a forward contract, the buyer and seller agree to the price of a commodity and a fixed date for delivery. A farmer enters into a forward contract with a food company by promising to deliver a certain amount of grain on a certain date at a certain price. Lawmakers have shied away from regulating forward contracts under commodity trading laws because they are a fundamental part of how farmers and food companies do business - and each agreement is unique.

A futures contract is the same basic agreement, but it trades on an exchange, and the buyer rarely - if ever - takes delivery of the commodities. Instead, futures contracts are used mainly by farmers for hedging and by investors for speculating. These contracts have historically been regulated.

In the Brent case, the difference was crucial, since the Brent market contracts did not trade on any exchange and, in the U.S., were not regulated by the CFTC.

The oil companies, hoping to protect their cozy market, and avoid the red tape and transparency requirements of regulation, argued they were forward contracts.

Judge Conner ruled against the companies, effectively rendering all Brent trading in the U.S. illegal.

Within days, international oil companies stopped trading with U.S. companies and the entire Brent market was verging on collapse.

In Washington, oil industry lobbyists descended on the CFTC, seeking to get the regulator to mitigate Judge Conner's ruling. They found a receptive ear in Ms. Gramm, the commission chair. Ms. Gramm served as a director at the Office of Management and Budget, spearheading a variety of industry deregulation efforts before President Reagan placed her in charge of the CFTC in 1988.

She arrived with other political credentials: her husband, Phil, who is now a senior economic adviser to presidential candidate John McCain, was a Republican senator from Texas.

Even before the Transnor case, Ms. Gramm had started pursuing a deregulation agenda at the CFTC. A year earlier, in 1989, the commission quietly issued a policy statement on swap transactions, deals in which a buyer of commodities such as a pension fund acts through a middleman or a swap dealer - usually a bank. The CFTC declared that it wouldn't regulate swap dealers.

The Transnor case represented another crucial win for financial speculators such as swap dealers. When the court decision was handed down, Ms. Gramm moved quickly to soften the blow to the energy sector, and turned the Transnor decision from an obscure footnote in the history of oil trading into a critical launching pad for a wide-ranging redrawing of the rules of commodities markets.

On Sept. 25, 1990, a policy confirming that the Brent contracts were forward contracts - and therefore, outside the scope of CFTC regulation - was put to a vote among CFTC commissioners.

It passed 3 to 1.

Ms. Gramm faced one vocal critic in her push to keep the Brent market unregulated: Fowler West, the lone 'no' vote.

"It was the way we were doing it, the speed with which we were doing it," Mr. West recalled in an interview. "It was that kind of an attitude that did open the door up for a lot of problems."

Ms. Gramm defends the CFTC's actions, and says the commission faced pressure from Congress to act. Senior CFTC staff, as well as a majority of commissioners, agreed with the interpretation concerning forward contracts, she noted.

"I don't think it was done too quickly," Ms. Gramm, who now chairs the Regulatory Studies Program at George Mason University's Mercatus Center, told The Globe and Mail in an interview.

Mr. West, meanwhile, wasn't merely outvoted. He was muzzled.

Although he wrote an official dissent after the vote, Ms. Gramm and the other commissioners blocked his views from being published in the CFTC's official record.

Furious, Mr. West retaliated by voicing his concern about the CFTC's moves to the New York State Bar Association. The regulator, he told the lawyers' group, "may soon be paying a price for its politically expedient statutory interpretation. I doubt that its new forward contract exemption can be restricted to large international oil and trading firms represented by influential lawyers."

He concluded with an ominous warning: "The public, down the road, will suffer from this fit of deregulation, no matter how well intentioned."

Mr. West's remarks were published in a law journal, and the efforts by the CFTC to quiet him stirred a furor in D.C. legal circles.

Two years later, Congress amended the Commodity Exchange Act to require the CFTC to publish dissenting opinions.

Into the promised land of deregulation

Much as Mr. West predicted, the Transnor case proved to be a watershed event. The CFTC's embrace of a narrow definition of a futures contract built on the regulator's earlier promise that it would not police swap transactions.

Together, these moves opened up a new frontier of commodity trading, enabling financial speculators to buy and sell complex derivatives away from the prying eyes of regulators and exchanges.

For these dealers in the late 1980s and 1990s, the shrinking CFTC rulebook created a "virtually regulation-free promised land," Philip McBride Johnson, who was CFTC chairman from 1981 to 1983, later told a congressional committee.

The vast majority of this trading boom occurred in the oil and energy markets, both of which are sufficiently large and liquid to accommodate legions of traders.

It wasn't long before dealers began gravitating toward the smaller agricultural commodities markets as well.

To get exposure to a broad array of commodities, many institutional investors preferred to invest in an index that tracked the futures market. These indexes typically comprise a basket of products, from oil and gas to wheat, cotton, and precious metals, each given a weighting according to the size of its individual market.

As funds began making more and more index investments, their ownership of food futures increased correspondingly.

Yet the food markets are a somewhat different beast, with a different set of rules, and it wasn't long before this infusion of money hit another regulatory snag.

For almost 75 years, the CFTC has imposed limits on how much of certain agricultural commodities, including wheat, cotton, soybean, soybean meal, corn, and oats, can be traded by non-commercial players - that is, investors who are not part of the food industry. So-called "commercial hedgers," like farmers or food processors, can trade unlimited amounts in order to manage their risk.

The limits were designed to prevent manipulation and distortion in what are relatively small markets, and at the same time to allow for a small amount of speculative activity, in order to provide liquidity for trading.

For decades, the restrictions didn't pose much of a problem. And then, in 1991, as new money began pouring in, the playing field suddenly shifted.

Emboldened by the CFTC's laissez-faire approach, a bank approached the regulator and, for the first time, requested an exemption from speculative trading limits in an agricultural commodity.

The unnamed bank was acting as a "swap dealer" for a pension fund: Essentially, it was a middleman who helped the pension fund get exposure to commodities. A spokesman for the regulator declined to identify the bank or the pension plan, citing confidentiality requirements.

Understanding how a swap transaction like this works is critical to grasping why the CFTC ultimately granted an exemption to this bank - and in so doing, opened a loophole that has since allowed hundreds of billions of dollars worth of fund money to rush into the commodities markets.

Let's say a pension fund wants to make a large investment in commodities, but the size of that investment would violate the trading limits on wheat. Rather than invest directly in the futures market, the fund can invest its money with a middleman, such as a bank, in what is called a swap transaction.

The bank might agree to pay the fund a return on a commodity index - if the index rises 10 per cent in the next year, the bank will pay out that 10 per cent. But the bank doesn't want to be on the hook for 10 per cent, so it hedges its risk by wading into the commodities market, and using the fund's money to buy futures. Essentially, it is buying futures to mirror the performance of the index, so that if prices rise, it can pass that gain along to the fund without digging into its own pocket.

It is this notion of a middleman that swayed the CFTC. Had the pension fund invested all of its money directly in futures, it would not be allowed to exceed the trading threshold.

But the swap dealer was a different story. The CFTC ruled that it was only buying futures to hedge its risk with the pension fund client; therefore, much like a food industry hedger, it deserved to be exempt too.

The move was further evidence of the regulator's hands-off approach under Ms. Gramm. Since that time, the regulator confirmed it has approved 20 additional exemptions for swap dealers, some of whom may strike agreements with multiple funds.

"The underlying philosophy seemed to be that the big guy could take care of himself and there was no need for a lot of regulation," Mr. West recalled.

"It was actually told to me by the chairwoman that these [big companies] don't need us regulating them and hampering them, because they can take care of themselves. That missed the point. The point was, sure they can take care of themselves - but it wasn't them I was worried about."

Still, despite this apparently favourable treatment, many swap dealers and derivatives traders remained nervous: Although the CFTC had provided welcome assurances, the regulator did not have the formal power to enshrine these exemptions as binding rules.

Brokerage firms, energy traders and other financial players aggressively lobbied Congress on the issue, and in 1992, the U.S. government passed new legislation that enabled the CFTC to determine which derivatives could be considered forward contracts and receive exemptions.

Armed with this new power, the CFTC quickly handed out nine different exemptions for certain energy contracts. One of the recipients was a Houston-based pipeline entity called Enron Corp. that was branching out into the energy trading arena.

In January 1993, just as President Bill Clinton was being inaugurated, Ms. Gramm left the CFTC. Five weeks later she joined the board of Enron.

Congress, however, wasn't done. In 2000, it introduced an array of exemptions, including one for electronic trading of energy contracts. This new rule, which prompted the creation of numerous over-the-counter trading systems allowing buyers and sellers to avoid scrutiny, was later given a nickname: the Enron Loophole.

...
Click on the link to read the rest of the article. This is about half of it, and the Globe and Mail is not some left-wing ideologue source: it is Canada's premiere business-oriented conservative newspaper.

Long story short: much of the food crisis can be attributed to the same source of so many of our current woes: Ronald Reagan and his deregulation movement. Most of the money in the agricultural market is now from people who have nothing to do with the business, and don't particularly care what effect their buying and selling decisions have on the industry as long as their index values keep going up. Regulations dating back to the early 20th century which were expressly designed to prevent this outcome were scrapped during the wave of deregulation that started in the 1980s and reached its zenith at the beginning of the current Bush administration.

Toward the end of the article, Mr. Giessel comments: "We're commoditizing everything, and losing sight that it's food, that it's something people need," he said. "We're trading lives."
TIMELINE

1848

82 businessmen form the Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT) for producers, buyers and sellers of grain.

1865

CBOT develops futures contracts for grains. Hundreds of other futures markets spring up across the U.S., including the Butter and Cheese Exchange in New York (which later became the New York Mercantile Exchange) and Chicago Butter and Egg Board (later changed to Chicago Mercantile Exchange).

1887

Winnipeg Grain and Produce Exchange founded (renamed Winnipeg Commodity Exchange in 1972). Operated as a cash market only for the first 18 years before becoming a futures market.

1905

Grain Growers Grain Co. Ltd. created in Saskatchewan as a co-operative for farmers.

1917

Wheat futures trading suspended on the Winnipeg exchange, leading the federal government to create the Canadian Wheat Board two years later.

1920

Canadian Wheat Board disbanded.

1922

U.S. passes Grain Futures Act in response to widespread manipulation in the futures markets. The law cracked down on "excessive speculation" and established a framework for regulated commodity exchanges.

1923

Wheat pools created in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba to market grain for farmers.

1935

Canadian Wheat Board re-established by the federal government to market grain.

1936

U.S. enacts Commodity Exchange Act to broaden regulations to include trading in other agricultural commodities, including cotton, butter and eggs.

1943

The CWB is granted a monopoly to sell prairie farmer's wheat; wheat trading on the Winnipeg exchange suspended.

1958

Agricultural Stabilization Board created in Canada to provide price support to farmers in various commodities.

1972

Farm Products Marketing Agencies Act enacted in Canada, leads to the creation of marketing boards for dairy and poultry products.

1974

U.S. government creates the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) to regulate commodity exchanges.

1989

CFTC issues a "swaps policy statement," saying it would not seek to regulate over-the-counter swap transactions.

1990

Transnor decision prompts CFTC to rule that Brent North Sea contracts are forward contracts and not subject to regulation.

1997

Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan becomes one of the first pension plans to invest in commodities, with a $100-million investment.

2000

Commodity Futures Modernization Act in the U.S. codifies exemptions and exclusions for various energy and financial derivatives from CFTC oversight.

Intercontinental Exchange created in Atlanta as an electronic energy trading platform.

2005

CFTC expands position limits in wheat, corn and soybean trading for speculators.

2006

CFTC grants index funds exemptions from position limits imposed on speculators.

2008

In February, prices for some wheat contracts surge 85 per cent on Minneapolis Grain Exchange. Trading is so heavy the contract hits daily limits 12 times, forcing the exchange to expand them.
I think it's a very interesting angle from which to examine the problem. Obviously, increasing demand from developing markets and from ethanol production are factors as well, but they are relatively steady increases, and do not satisfactorily explain the extreme volatility we're seeing. Excessive amounts of speculative trading, on the other hand, will produce high volatility almost by definition, and the Republican Congress explicitly passed an act in 2000 designed to take the gloves off speculative traders in agricultural commodities.

And the person responsible is the wife of the guy who now serves as John McCain's economic advisor.
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montypython
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Post by montypython »

The thing that pisses me off particularly is how the progressive policies of the early 20th century were written off by these right-wing nuts as being 'liberal bureaucratic evils' and were allowed to inflict so much damage and not get penalized for it.
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Post by Darth Wong »

What truly drives me crazy is the sheer scale of misery these people have inflicted upon others, and not only have they not suffered in a material sense, but they are still highly regarded by most of the population, including many people who are suffering as a result of their movement!

This should rightfully go down in history as the most spectacular public-relations coup since Christians managed to paint Nazism as an anti-Christian pagan occultist movement.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by Alan Bolte »

as long as their index values keep going up
There's been some argument in investment circles as to whether this is speculation, as you suggest, or fear. That is, that all these pension funds and investment firms can't find low risk investments in enough stocks, bonds, or other paper (even government bonds carry a risk of default, and even the US is on shaky ground right now), so they put some of their enormous amounts of money into commodities because they're the only thing whose value is seen as reliable enough. Whether the result can pop like a speculative bubble or not is something I'm not clear on, and the details of how one can tell the difference between speculation and more rational investment are simply too technical for me. As far as I understand it, since someone has to take delivery of a commodity when the contract is up, and since that someone is almost never a speculator because of storage costs, some, like Karl Denninger, have suggested that were prices speculator-driven there would be measurable differences between the price of the contract before and at delivery. However, if that's the case, then what were's seeing is something like the use of food as backing for paper money, and I just can't agree with Denninger's assessment, "what's wrong with that?" Use gold as money, hardly anyone cares. Use food as money, people starve. Oil seems like something of a middle case. But as I said, it's a little too technical for me, so I'm probably misunderstanding.

Another argument I see a lot, and one I know you're familiar with, is that if we regulate too much here, the investments will go overseas. You've described what's wrong with that in previous threads, in better words than I could, but I think it notable that India, and certain other developing nations are finding this to be perfectly true, as they have banned or restricted futures and forwards, but it has had no effect on prices. I would expect a change in the US to have rather more significant effects, given the sheer size of our economy.
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Post by The Spartan »

montypython wrote:The thing that pisses me off particularly is how the progressive policies of the early 20th century were written off by these right-wing nuts as being 'liberal bureaucratic evils' and were allowed to inflict so much damage and not get penalized for it.
Especially when those same policies were enacted because of an economic disaster (read: The Great Depression) and to prevent further problems of a similar nature. You know, like the ones we're seeing right now.

Doomed to repeat it...
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

A month or so ago I started looking at the educational backgrounds of former presidents and presidential candidates.

Most of the presidents were lawyers, or had some sort of command experience in the military. Most of the presidents had educational backgrounds that would prepare them to be leaders.

Reagen sticks out like a sore thumb. His education and career experiences in no way prepared him to be president or any sort of leader.
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Post by Darth Wong »

It's probably worth pointing out that a shitload of educated economists drank the Deregulation Kool-Aid along with him. Reagan is responsible in the sense that he was a great pitchman for the idea and used his position to get these policies implemented, but his lack of education was not really a driving factor in his adoption of this idiocy, which only helped rich indolents such as him.

Lack of education is more of a factor when people support policies which cause crippling harm to their own social class and think that the exact opposite will happen.
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Post by PainRack »

The problem was the backlash against deregulation had become more and more obvious in the past decade. The S&Ls industry, Asian Finanicial Crisis, Argentina, all of them showed that either unrestrained credit or ineffectual regulation would cause bubbles that needed to be popped.

PM Mathathir comments about speculation on stock markets, derivatives, inflammatory as they seemed then just seemed to be more and more necessary in crisis management.
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

Darth Wong wrote:It's probably worth pointing out that a shitload of educated economists drank the Deregulation Kool-Aid along with him. Reagan is responsible in the sense that he was a great pitchman for the idea and used his position to get these policies implemented, but his lack of education was not really a driving factor in his adoption of this idiocy, which only helped rich indolents such as him.

Lack of education is more of a factor when people support policies which cause crippling harm to their own social class and think that the exact opposite will happen.
Are you implying that Reagen and the economists supporting free-market ideals were only supporting that position because they stood to make personal gains - not because they lacked the proper context and educational background?

I'd be more inclined to the notion that these people were seeing Deng XiaoPing's reforms in China, Park's reforms in South Korea, and the fall of the command economy in Eastern Europe, and developed a sort of idealization of the free market. Of course, if more free market in China was so successful, then a totally unregulated free market is the wave of the future, right?
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Post by Darth Wong »

CaptainZoidberg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's probably worth pointing out that a shitload of educated economists drank the Deregulation Kool-Aid along with him. Reagan is responsible in the sense that he was a great pitchman for the idea and used his position to get these policies implemented, but his lack of education was not really a driving factor in his adoption of this idiocy, which only helped rich indolents such as him.

Lack of education is more of a factor when people support policies which cause crippling harm to their own social class and think that the exact opposite will happen.
Are you implying that Reagen and the economists supporting free-market ideals were only supporting that position because they stood to make personal gains - not because they lacked the proper context and educational background?
You find that hard to believe, especially since many well-educated economists went along with it?
I'd be more inclined to the notion that these people were seeing Deng XiaoPing's reforms in China, Park's reforms in South Korea, and the fall of the command economy in Eastern Europe, and developed a sort of idealization of the free market. Of course, if more free market in China was so successful, then a totally unregulated free market is the wave of the future, right?
The deregulation movement was pushed by corporate lobbyists and began long before the collapse of communism in eastern Europe. Reagan probably couldn't find South Korea on a map, but he could tell that deregulation would make his corporate backers happy.
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Post by Phantasee »

I've had the feeling that there was too much deregulation going on for a while now. I'm obviously no economist, but from what we learned in high school, it was somewhat apparent that the current situation was because of not enough oversight. Especially after we saw what happened during the whole Enron debacle. Everything since then, including high oil and food prices, the housing bust, the credit crunch, all of it, seemed to stem from the deregulation of the 80s, 90s, and now.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

great he paved the way for the faux news megaopolies, created the current voodoo economics inflation over job increase, destroyed health care, and now brought about the collapse of our ability to feed ourselves....
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CaptainZoidberg
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

Darth Wong wrote: You find that hard to believe, especially since many well-educated economists went along with it?
Yes. Even the well-educated economists could see the amazing transformation of China or South Korea.
The deregulation movement was pushed by corporate lobbyists and began long before the collapse of communism in eastern Europe.
But not Park in South Korea and Zhou Enlai in China and their free market ideas became influential / successful. Remember that deregulation and free market reforms started very gradually in China even before Deng XiaoPing took over.
Reagan probably couldn't find South Korea on a map, but he could tell that deregulation would make his corporate backers happy.
Reagen actually visited Deng XiaoPing's China, and was very supportive of their free market reforms.
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CaptainZoidberg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You find that hard to believe, especially since many well-educated economists went along with it?
Yes. Even the well-educated economists could see the amazing transformation of China or South Korea.
Only an imbecile would have attributed them to a linear relationship between deregulation and prosperity, rather than a question of which kinds of regulations are harmful or beneficial.
The deregulation movement was pushed by corporate lobbyists and began long before the collapse of communism in eastern Europe.
But not Park in South Korea and Zhou Enlai in China and their free market ideas became influential / successful. Remember that deregulation and free market reforms started very gradually in China even before Deng XiaoPing took over.
Those reforms were not related to quantity of regulation: they were related to nature of regulation. In many ways, those societies were actually less regulated than ours; far less consumer protection and public safety regulation, for example.
Reagan probably couldn't find South Korea on a map, but he could tell that deregulation would make his corporate backers happy.
Reagen actually visited Deng XiaoPing's China, and was very supportive of their free market reforms.
He was supportive of anything that was perceived as anti-communism. That doesn't change the fact that every deregulation bill was always pushed by corporate backers, and bore little resemblance to the kinds of reforms taking place in South Korea or China. Do you think he was unaware that his corporate backers wanted these things, or would reward him and his party for them? Dismissing self-interest as a motive is just silly.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Yes, because the PRC and ROK are perfect examples of free markets and deregulation. Or NOT. These countries benefited from extensive regulation and years of protectionism.
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

Darth Wong wrote: Only an imbecile would have attributed them to a linear relationship between deregulation and prosperity, rather than a question of which kinds of regulations are harmful or beneficial.
Deng's first major reform in China was too allow farmer's to sell some of their food on a free market at free market prices. Most of his following reforms were are all about transferring power from large public enterprises to private enterprises.

I don't see how you could at his reforms or Jiang Zhemin's reforms as anything other than extensive deregulation of prices and the market.
Those reforms were not related to quantity of regulation: they were related to nature of regulation. In many ways, those societies were actually less regulated than ours; far less consumer protection and public safety regulation, for example.
But they were always less regulated in those regards. The major shift that brought the growth was the deregulation of prices on crops - and the transition of large public ventures into private enterprises.

Jiang Zhemin's reforms were equally focused on deregulating industry within the cities.

The only change I could think of that one could construe as greater regulation were the selective tax-breaks given to companies in the Special Economic Zone in southern China.
He was supportive of anything that was perceived as anti-communism. That doesn't change the fact that every deregulation bill was always pushed by corporate backers, and bore little resemblance to the kinds of reforms taking place in South Korea or China. Do you think he was unaware that his corporate backers wanted these things, or would reward him and his party for them? Dismissing self-interest as a motive is just silly.
What kind of evidence is there to show that he wasn't just going with his anti-communist instincts? I'm sure the corporate world supported him, but that doesn't mean he was supporting the measure just because of that.
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Post by ArmorPierce »

Darth Wong wrote:
CaptainZoidberg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It's probably worth pointing out that a shitload of educated economists drank the Deregulation Kool-Aid along with him. Reagan is responsible in the sense that he was a great pitchman for the idea and used his position to get these policies implemented, but his lack of education was not really a driving factor in his adoption of this idiocy, which only helped rich indolents such as him.

Lack of education is more of a factor when people support policies which cause crippling harm to their own social class and think that the exact opposite will happen.
Are you implying that Reagen and the economists supporting free-market ideals were only supporting that position because they stood to make personal gains - not because they lacked the proper context and educational background?
You find that hard to believe, especially since many well-educated economists went along with it?
I'd be more inclined to the notion that these people were seeing Deng XiaoPing's reforms in China, Park's reforms in South Korea, and the fall of the command economy in Eastern Europe, and developed a sort of idealization of the free market. Of course, if more free market in China was so successful, then a totally unregulated free market is the wave of the future, right?
The deregulation movement was pushed by corporate lobbyists and began long before the collapse of communism in eastern Europe. Reagan probably couldn't find South Korea on a map, but he could tell that deregulation would make his corporate backers happy.
From the few economic classes I took, the economic books were spouting off against regulation citing supply and demand and the self correcting hand of the free market. These economists were likely doing what they learned. Of course I do think that most of them realize it is bullshit and are in the end benefiting the rich and what not.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Deng's first major reform in China was too allow farmer's
China was a total command economy with a lack of a market sector. :roll: Just about anything from that would be "de-regulation", you know.
The major shift that brought the growth was the deregulation of prices on crops - and the transition of large public ventures into private enterprises.
You mean there are no state mega-corporations in China fuelling a lot of that growth as well? :?
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Post by Darth Wong »

CaptainZoidberg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Only an imbecile would have attributed them to a linear relationship between deregulation and prosperity, rather than a question of which kinds of regulations are harmful or beneficial.
Deng's first major reform in China was too allow farmer's to sell some of their food on a free market at free market prices. Most of his following reforms were are all about transferring power from large public enterprises to private enterprises.

I don't see how you could at his reforms or Jiang Zhemin's reforms as anything other than extensive deregulation of prices and the market.
You're thoroughly missing the point, I see. The point was that they restructured their economy. While changing or removing certain regulations was part of that restructuring, it was not the point. They did say "I know what we need: less regulations!" They said that they needed a more capitalist economic system, so they changed their regulations to accomodate one.
Those reforms were not related to quantity of regulation: they were related to nature of regulation. In many ways, those societies were actually less regulated than ours; far less consumer protection and public safety regulation, for example.
But they were always less regulated in those regards.
:roll: Congratulations for restating my point. Yes, they were always less regulated in some ways than the USA is. That's the whole goddamned point I was trying to make, fool. It's not about "more" or "less" regulation; it's about the type of regulation and the quality of regulation.
What kind of evidence is there to show that he wasn't just going with his anti-communist instincts?
The fact that he was nothing more than a sock puppet for a movement which was basically run by businessmen. You don't really think senile old Ronald Reagan sat down and formulated policy himself, do you? The guy got advice from fucking psychics. The United States should be glad he didn't embarrass the country by peeing his pants at the United Nations.
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

Darth Wong wrote: You're thoroughly missing the point, I see. The point was that they restructured their economy. While changing or removing certain regulations was part of that restructuring, it was not the point. They did say "I know what we need: less regulations!" They said that they needed a more capitalist economic system, so they changed their regulations to accomodate one.
Yes, but isn't it possible that conservatives in the US perceived it as a victory of massive deregulation and free market capitalism - and should be copied in the US by reducing regulation on trading?
:roll: Congratulations for restating my point. Yes, they were always less regulated in some ways than the USA is. That's the whole goddamned point I was trying to make, fool. It's not about "more" or "less" regulation; it's about the type of regulation and the quality of regulation.
Agreed.
The fact that he was nothing more than a sock puppet for a movement which was basically run by businessmen. You don't really think senile old Ronald Reagan sat down and formulated policy himself, do you? The guy got advice from fucking psychics. The United States should be glad he didn't embarrass the country by peeing his pants at the United Nations.
I don't find that too unreasonable given his lack of background in law or economics.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Yes, but isn't it possible that conservatives in the US perceived it as a victory of massive deregulation and free market capitalism
They deliberately spun the China case then, ignoring other factors and the whole structure of the growth in that case, and ignored the cases of failure of deregulation in the f.USSR. Of course, ignoring unconvenient outcomes of policies is not something you do undeliberately, isn't it?
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

Stas Bush wrote:
Yes, but isn't it possible that conservatives in the US perceived it as a victory of massive deregulation and free market capitalism
They deliberately spun the China case then, ignoring other factors and the whole structure of the growth in that case, and ignored the cases of failure of deregulation in the f.USSR. Of course, ignoring unconvenient outcomes of policies is not something you do undeliberately, isn't it?
Most people I've talked to have given two reasons why the USSR failed where China succeeded:

1. The USSR wasn't conservative enough, and they tried to change too many things too fast

2. China had something of a free market under the Nationalist regime, and therefore they already had an educated group of people who could run a free market economy - Russia didn't have such a business class before communism came in (and communism came in earlier in Russia).
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Post by Edi »

CaptainZoidberg wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:
Yes, but isn't it possible that conservatives in the US perceived it as a victory of massive deregulation and free market capitalism
They deliberately spun the China case then, ignoring other factors and the whole structure of the growth in that case, and ignored the cases of failure of deregulation in the f.USSR. Of course, ignoring unconvenient outcomes of policies is not something you do undeliberately, isn't it?
Most people I've talked to have given two reasons why the USSR failed where China succeeded:

1. The USSR wasn't conservative enough, and they tried to change too many things too fast

2. China had something of a free market under the Nationalist regime, and therefore they already had an educated group of people who could run a free market economy - Russia didn't have such a business class before communism came in (and communism came in earlier in Russia).
I foresee a major asskicking in the offing. Stas Bush is Russian and has lived most of his life there, right through the events you're talking about. You're about to get a thorough education on just what happened with regard to this when the USSR broke up and what has gone wrong since...
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

S. Korea was pretty much a command economy for quite a while in the earlier days. A lot of the chaebols enjoyed government patronage in sectors which the government deemed as vital to the future success of the Korean economy. In many ways, their actions were correct as the country's current economic strength is built upon the investments in the technology and heavy industry sectors. These sectors spent decades catching up with Japan and now have matched their rivals.

The problem with S. Korea was corruption which was widespread in the Chaebols and a lot of bad investment decisions. I'm not too familiar with their problems, which were quite complex, but suggesting that the free market was the prime reason for S. Korea's success is completely incorrect.
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Post by PeZook »

2. China had something of a free market under the Nationalist regime, and therefore they already had an educated group of people who could run a free market economy - Russia didn't have such a business class before communism came in (and communism came in earlier in Russia).
GROAN

Some pepole seem to assume Russia just kinda...didn't exist before 1917.

What do you think they were doing for the former 1800 years? Russia was a major trading empire for much of its history, it had plenty of experience with industrialization and a fuckload of good universities. The failure of Russian reforms in the 1990s has nothing to do with a "lack of an educated business class". In fact, Soviet economists have contributed quite a bit to the field of economic modelling when trying to pursue the goal of a 100% centrally commanded economy.
Armorpiece wrote: From the few economic classes I took, the economic books were spouting off against regulation citing supply and demand and the self correcting hand of the free market. These economists were likely doing what they learned. Of course I do think that most of them realize it is bullshit and are in the end benefiting the rich and what not.
This is a problem with most economic courses, sometimes even in universities. Supply and Demand is a basic principle of economics, and nothing more. It's important in the perfect competition model, but that's what you learn about during an introductory course. Then you get to learn about all the other fun stuff and interlocking factors which influence an economy, stuff like information inequalify and irrationality of actors, the money supply, elasticity of supply and demand, etc.

The problem is that since economics is not an exact science, it's easy for idiots to slide through courses with Cs and then pretend they actually know what they're talking about, especially if one or two professors are die-hard libertarians and they just follow the dogma.
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