Cheap foreign labour ain't so cheap anymore

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Cheap foreign labour ain't so cheap anymore

Post by Ma Deuce »

Toronto Star wrote:Shipping costs soar
Oil-fired transportation cost may put brakes on long-distance trade

May 28, 2008 04:30 AM

Julian Beltrame

THE CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA–The high price of energy is undercutting the advantages of globalization by raising transportation costs so much that they could force businesses to look closer to home, says a CIBC World Markets report.

"Globalization is reversible," Jeff Rubin, the bank's chief economist, wrote in the study released yesterday.

"In a world of triple-digit oil prices, distance costs money. And while trade liberalization and technology may have flattened the world, rising transportation prices will once again make it rounder."

Rubin and co-author Benjamin Tal say the cost of moving goods – particularly heavy materials such as steel – not the burden of tariffs, is the largest barrier to global trade today.

They calculate that every $1 (U.S.) increase in the price of a barrel of oil has translated into a 1 per cent increase in transportation costs.

In fact, the report says, the explosion in transport costs caused by the record price of oil has effectively offset all the trade liberalization efforts of the past three decades.

In 2000, when oil was $20 a barrel, the cost of transportation was the equivalent of a 3 per cent U.S. tariff rate, the report states.

Now, transportation costs are equivalent to a 9 per cent tariff, and at $150 a barrel for oil they would amount to an 11 per cent tariff – about the average of tariff rates in the 1970s.


Given the costs of moving raw materials and finished goods, distance to market is becoming an increasingly important factor in business decisions, the report says.

The cost of shipping a standard 40-foot container from Shanghai to North America's east coast has jumped to $8,000 from $3,000 in 2000 when oil was $20 a barrel, the report says.

Nobody is predicting any sudden breakdown of Asia's exporting machine. After all, labour costs remain far lower in Asia, while shipping costs spread out over a container full of consumer electronics, clothing, sporting goods or the like may result in only a modest increase in per-unit costs.

But the higher shipping costs are already affecting products with a high ratio of freight costs to final sale price, such as steel, the report says. It says China's steel shipments to the United States are down by 20 per cent from a year ago, the worst performance in a decade, while U.S. domestic steel production has risen 10 per cent. Eventually, some production could return to North America.

"Are we seeing a major inflow of jobs back to the manufacturing sector? Not yet," he said. "But if oil prices continue to rise and transport prices even double from the current rate, you will see more and more jobs coming back."

United Steelworkers economist Erin Weir said the CIBC paper makes sense in theory, since globalization is partially made possible by cheap transportation costs.

Weir said he cannot point to any sudden increase in steel production in Canada, but noted that the country's steel industry has been acquired by foreign interests in the past few years, "so they must believe they are good investments."

High energy prices will have a minimum impact on Canadian exports, Tal said, since the vast majority are bound for the nearby U.S. market, and many are in commodities, for which markets have few alternative sources.

CIBC's Rubin last month gained attention for predicting oil would surge to $225 a barrel by 2012. Some of his past calls, on real estate and currency, for example, have hit the mark, while other calls have been off base, such as saying in 2000 the Canadian dollar was "on a path to extinction."


Well, that's one one aspect of high oil prices I'm certainly not sorry to see. Maybe now we in North America can start reversing the wholesale destruction we've inflicted on our light manufacturing sector in the name of Wal-Mart, before oil prices are so high that we'll have no choice but to produce all our consumer goods locally. Next up, I hope this trend will soon have the impact effect on imported cars.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

I, for one, hope that this will eventually lead to container vessels with pebble bed reactors, which will finally smack enough sense into NZ politicians over our being anti nuclear power to get nuclear power legalised (well its either that or black outs in the name of ideology and fanaticism).
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Stuart Mackey wrote:I, for one, hope that this will eventually lead to container vessels with pebble bed reactors, which will finally smack enough sense into NZ politicians over our being anti nuclear power to get nuclear power legalised (well its either that or black outs in the name of ideology and fanaticism).
In the meantime though it will mean that any nation which requires a large number of exports to keep its economy functioning will need to invest rapidly in fuel saving measures or else risk long term harm to their business. The US can resurrect its dormant production industries with very little relative cost but other nations which do the exporting are not well positioned to have an economy which has the trade balance closer to flat.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Well, that's one one aspect of high oil prices I'm certainly not sorry to see. Maybe now we in North America can start reversing the wholesale destruction we've inflicted on our light manufacturing sector in the name of Wal-Mart, before oil prices are so high that we'll have no choice but to produce all our consumer goods locally
Yeah, damn those upstart poor people for trying to improve their economy, rather than starving on rugs and taking our aid money like good 3d worlders :roll: .
Do you also give money to charity with that mouth?
wilkens wrote:In the meantime though it will mean that any nation which requires a large number of exports to keep its economy functioning will need to invest rapidly in fuel saving measures or else risk long term harm to their business. The US can resurrect its dormant production industries with very little relative cost but other nations which do the exporting are not well positioned to have an economy which has the trade balance closer to flat.
It will be interesting to see whether China has enough of a home market to keep a measure of economic growth or even its Boom of the past 2 decades. (I doubt their economy will actually crash, they've sucked up enough capital and human capital that they're growing a respectable middle class, despite being potentially second hardest hit b this. [Hardest hit being bottom rung manufacturers, such as Bangladesh]).
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Post by Kanastrous »

DEATH wrote: Yeah, damn those upstart poor people for trying to improve their economy, rather than starving on rugs and taking our aid money like good 3d worlders :roll: .
Do you also give money to charity with that mouth?
How is a desire to resurrect our own manufacturing industries, interpreted as damning people elsewhere who want the business?
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Kanastrous wrote:
DEATH wrote: Yeah, damn those upstart poor people for trying to improve their economy, rather than starving on rugs and taking our aid money like good 3d worlders :roll: .
Do you also give money to charity with that mouth?
How is a desire to resurrect our own manufacturing industries, interpreted as damning people elsewhere who want the business?
The fact that the 2 conflict (Improving the economy at home, and helping the 3d/2d world out of its pit), does not mean that one rules out the other entirely.
Sorry, I just get annoyed at the constant "Globalization does horrible things to the poor sweatshop workers in country X, ruins jobs here and only serves those evil internation businessmen" theme that tends to be under every other threat that mentions globalization, and most of it is said by liberal people who support improving living conditions and standards in the non western world, more charity, more help, and fail to see that this is perhaps the best way to help, while still boosting their home economies in some fields (While at the loss of others).
Still, I think I read too far into the line, since toys at wall mart and going into a rant against anti-trade, was probably me unintentionally straw manning unintentionally, apologies Deuce'.
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Post by Alferd Packer »

CmdrWilkens wrote:In the meantime though it will mean that any nation which requires a large number of exports to keep its economy functioning will need to invest rapidly in fuel saving measures or else risk long term harm to their business. The US can resurrect its dormant production industries with very little relative cost but other nations which do the exporting are not well positioned to have an economy which has the trade balance closer to flat.
I don't know that there's much else to be done. The largest container ships have diesel engines with an operating efficiency of 52% or thereabouts, which is staggeringly good. In addition, they employ special hull coatings to reduce drag in water. If you build them bigger, you can, of course, save fuel through economies Unfortunately, they can't be built much bigger without forcing major shipping channels (like the Suez Canal) to be rebuilt to accommodate them.

I suspect that nuclear-powered container ships would be the best way to go, although that does bring security considerations to light.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

CmdrWilkens wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:I, for one, hope that this will eventually lead to container vessels with pebble bed reactors, which will finally smack enough sense into NZ politicians over our being anti nuclear power to get nuclear power legalised (well its either that or black outs in the name of ideology and fanaticism).
In the meantime though it will mean that any nation which requires a large number of exports to keep its economy functioning will need to invest rapidly in fuel saving measures or else risk long term harm to their business. The US can resurrect its dormant production industries with very little relative cost but other nations which do the exporting are not well positioned to have an economy which has the trade balance closer to flat.
Indeed, something that I am acutely aware of, as is every thinking NZ'er.
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Post by Phantasee »

What would it take to rebuild the Suez and Panama Canals to take bigger ships? And is it possible to widen the Straits of Malacca?

Nuclear-powered container ships, eh? That's something I've never thought of. Can you give me some more information on that?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Resurrecting the domestic manufacturing sector might not be as easy as it sounds. Thirty years of "service industry" thinking has made manufacturing and skilled trades into low-prestige work that nobody wants to learn. As a result, the USA is seriously short of the kinds of tradespeople required for expanding its domestic manufacturing industry. Public schools all across North America have dropped or drastically curtailed their machine shop programs.

Here in Ontario, we've been keeping our manufacturing industry alive by literally importing people: specifically, hordes of skilled tradespeople from countries in the former Soviet Union. But unless the current atmosphere of contempt for tradespeople dissipates, it's going to be pretty damned difficult to expand domestic manufacturing to any serious extent.

Millions of people who studied "B-school" won't be any damned good when we need people who can work in manufacturing plants.
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Post by aerius »

Darth Wong wrote:Here in Ontario, we've been keeping our manufacturing industry alive by literally importing people: specifically, hordes of skilled tradespeople from countries in the former Soviet Union.
One of my friends works at a pneumatics factory, he jokes that everyone working there has an unpronounceable surname ending in "ov" or "ski". It's not that much of an exaggeration, around 3/4 of the workers there are from Eastern Europe or the FSU.
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Post by Stark »

Darth Wong wrote:Resurrecting the domestic manufacturing sector might not be as easy as it sounds. Thirty years of "service industry" thinking has made manufacturing and skilled trades into low-prestige work that nobody wants to learn. As a result, the USA is seriously short of the kinds of tradespeople required for expanding its domestic manufacturing industry. Public schools all across North America have dropped or drastically curtailed their machine shop programs.
While it's not primarily shipping-cost related, AU has had tradeskill programs going for some time, after the mid-90s led us to the standard service-industry shortage of skilled tradesmen and nowhere to import them from. It's still not great here, despite the higher profile given to tradeskills and technical schools, but if it's even worse in America I guess they'll be importing a lot of skilled tradesmen from Canada and Mexico.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Phantasee wrote:What would it take to rebuild the Suez and Panama Canals to take bigger ships? And is it possible to widen the Straits of Malacca?

Nuclear-powered container ships, eh? That's something I've never thought of. Can you give me some more information on that?
try this article which is short with most things but does give you the basics: $5bn and 8 years to go from 110' to 160' maximum beam.
Last edited by CmdrWilkens on 2008-06-04 07:54am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Glocksman »

DEATH wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:
DEATH wrote: Yeah, damn those upstart poor people for trying to improve their economy, rather than starving on rugs and taking our aid money like good 3d worlders :roll: .
Do you also give money to charity with that mouth?
How is a desire to resurrect our own manufacturing industries, interpreted as damning people elsewhere who want the business?
The fact that the 2 conflict (Improving the economy at home, and helping the 3d/2d world out of its pit), does not mean that one rules out the other entirely.
Sorry, I just get annoyed at the constant "Globalization does horrible things to the poor sweatshop workers in country X, ruins jobs here and only serves those evil internation businessmen" theme that tends to be under every other threat that mentions globalization, and most of it is said by liberal people who support improving living conditions and standards in the non western world, more charity, more help, and fail to see that this is perhaps the best way to help, while still boosting their home economies in some fields (While at the loss of others).
Still, I think I read too far into the line, since toys at wall mart and going into a rant against anti-trade, was probably me unintentionally straw manning unintentionally, apologies Deuce'.

Uhhh...at the risk of sounding selfish, I'd propose that the cost of raising the standard of living in the 3rd world be borne by most wealth instead of the least wealthy in the 1st world.

IOW, if you want my $12.80/hr wages to go lower, than go fuck yourself with a rusted dildo. :P
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Post by ArmorPierce »

Agreed. There is no way to compete with a country where employer practices that would be illegal here and competing with them would only result to lowering standard of living for average joe here (whilst increasing the wealth of the wealthy). Only way I see to compete is subsidizing companies here or putting tariffs up.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Well, this does make it look good for european farmers, more local produce is the way of the future. Maybe eventually finnish farmers won't require subsidies to be competitive either.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Phantasee wrote:What would it take to rebuild the Suez and Panama Canals to take bigger ships?
Dude… both canals are being widen and deepened as we speak, including a whole new set of locks for Panama of dubious economics (the studies they used basically assumed international trade would just keep growing exponentially). Suez will be able to take ships up to about 400,000 tons when the job is done, so anything but the utterly largest oil tankers or ore haulers. Panama will still be much more limited, but it will be able to accomdate any container ship in existence today.

And is it possible to widen the Straits of Malacca?
The issue isn’t width with that waterway, its depth at the Singapore Strait end, limited to 82ft. That’s still some deep water, only certain ultra large crude carriers over about 350,000 DWT are unable to use it. Malaccamax container ships have been proposed, but no one as shown any signs of building such colossal ships because they suffer from extreamly lengthy loading and unloading times. The same issue is what arrested the growth of supertankers in the first place (the largest ones all got built some time ago now)

Dredging the channel has been proposed, but it would be very expensive for a minimal return even if people do start building a range of ships big enough to demand it again. A canal across the Kra Isthmus has also been proposed as bypass, but it would be just absurdly expensive and will never be built unless China funds it as a pure prestige project (very unlikely)

Nuclear-powered container ships, eh? That's something I've never thought of. Can you give me some more information on that?
Unless they saw mass production to a standardized design they’ll be far too expensive to operate economically, that’s whats killed every nuclear cargo ship to come before now (five have been built IIRC, though one never operated as a nuclear ship). Fuel costs would go down, but uranium prices have been going up for a while, and every other cost for the ships construction and operation would skyrocket, you’d need way bigger crews, special port facilities, lengthy overhaul and refueling periods ect… I don’t see it happening, certainly not for container ships anyway.

Oil tankers (so ironic) would be the best candidate. They are the largest ships around, and the big ones typically load and unload from offshore buoys or remote piers so safety concerns are lessened vs. container ports which tend to be in dense urban areas. The massive beam of the ship and huge oil cargo could be used to protect the reactor from collisions. Ore haulers are also starting to get really fucking big, Japan is building a class of 300,000DWT ships to haul iron ore from north Brazil back home, they’d be real nice candidates too and the ore would make even better protection.
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Post by Coalition »

Phantasee wrote:What would it take to rebuild the Suez and Panama Canals to take bigger ships? And is it possible to widen the Straits of Malacca?
I'd wonder if there would eventually be dedicated transshipping points on either side of the choke points. I.e. a max size container ship pulls up to the west end of the Panama Canal with a load of containers. The cargo gets transferred to a Panamax container ship, and sent through the Canal. On the east end is another container ship (or flat land with lots of containers), which picks up the containers, and continues to San Francisco, or somewhere else in the Pacific Ocean.
Phantasee wrote:Nuclear-powered container ships, eh? That's something I've never thought of. Can you give me some more information on that?
I googled 'nuclear container ship', and from the first page I got:

Nuclear icebreaking container ship
Nuclear Power for Commercial Ships

Plus a couple others that required subscription.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Coalition wrote: I'd wonder if there would eventually be dedicated transshipping points on either side of the choke points. I.e. a max size container ship pulls up to the west end of the Panama Canal with a load of containers. The cargo gets transferred to a Panamax container ship, and sent through the Canal. On the east end is another container ship (or flat land with lots of containers), which picks up the containers, and continues to San Francisco, or somewhere else in the Pacific Ocean.
They already do that to an extent, at Panama some container ships unload part of the cargo onto railway cars, and then reload it on the far side of the canal because the offload reduces the ships draught just enough to make passage possible. However loading and unloading container ships is time consuming and expensive (those huge gantry cranes aren’t free to use, the ship isn't making money when its not moving ect..) so it’s undesirable to have to transship cargo like that.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

ArmorPierce wrote:Agreed. There is no way to compete with a country where employer practices that would be illegal here and competing with them would only result to lowering standard of living for average joe here (whilst increasing the wealth of the wealthy). Only way I see to compete is subsidizing companies here or putting tariffs up.
Which screws over not only the third world, but every one else. I live in a first world country, so why should I be unemployed because the US or the EU cannot compete with my nations products? and with most of what we produce, the EU and the US cannot compete with us not because they cannot its because of subsidies in the first place.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

His Divine Shadow wrote:Well, this does make it look good for european farmers, more local produce is the way of the future. Maybe eventually finnish farmers won't require subsidies to be competitive either.
Not if you want to look at food in the sense of energy used to produce that food. If memory serves me correctly, twice the energy goes into UK lamb, birth to plate, than its equivalent from NZ, and we are on the other side of the planet.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Forget expanding panama, if you want to do it right build the Nicaragua Canal. It'd be just as useful.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Sea Skimmer wrote:snip
Unless they saw mass production to a standardized design they’ll be far too expensive to operate economically, that’s whats killed every nuclear cargo ship to come before now (five have been built IIRC, though one never operated as a nuclear ship). Fuel costs would go down, but uranium prices have been going up for a while, and every other cost for the ships construction and operation would skyrocket, you’d need way bigger crews, special port facilities, lengthy overhaul and refueling periods ect… I don’t see it happening, certainly not for container ships anyway.

snip.
What about pebble bed's?
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Stuart Mackey wrote: What about pebble bed's?
What about them? You can refuel while the reactor is running sure, but its not like anyone would be insane enough to try to do that while operating at sea, and even if you did then you’ve got spent fuel full of plutonium ready to be stolen onboard.

Pebble Beds also need a fair bit more volume, and thus would require much more radiation shielding then pressured water reactors, all of which will greatly drive up the weight of the machinery plant. I doubt that’s actually going to matter though on a 400,000 plus ton ship.

Inability to meltdown would be nice, but you can build some other types of reactors in such a way that they’d basically never be able to meltdown. The issue is more the mere fact that you might, as a civilian company operating the ship, drop a nuclear reactor onto the sea floor. Imagine the liability suits from that in the modern day.

Also a serious constraint on any nuclear cargo ship is that its nuclear machinery plant must be designed all together as one unit, reactor-cooling-turbines, in ordered to work well. You can’t scale a plant up or down without massive design work like you can other kinds of marine power plants, diesels, gas turbines, boiler fed steam turbines. This means a customer has to fit his ship to the available power plant designs rather then what he needs the ship to do. Even for the USN and USSR this was a serious cost driven limitation.
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Illuminatus Primus
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Darth Wong wrote: Millions of people who studied "B-school" won't be any damned good when we need people who can work in manufacturing plants.
Do those wankers actually call a retard business school undergrad degree that in Canada?
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