Isolated Tribe in Amazon Found

[Straha]

Third is the fact that as people in the first world, our standards of living are immensely higher than what they could ever expect. The same would be true for most of the 2d world, and the elite or lucky in the 3d.
Of course, someone in Darfur might prefer having food and no guns.

So it's because "You have cultural conditioning against living like them, lack of survival skills and because our life is immeasurably superior in almost every standard of living measurement."?

Do you not see the blatant contradiction underpining your argument against helping these people who don't really need our help there?

[The Grim Squeaker]

Third is the fact that as people in the first world, our standards of living are immensely higher than what they could ever expect. The same would be true for most of the 2d world, and the elite or lucky in the 3d.
Of course, someone in Darfur might prefer having food and no guns.

So it's because "You have cultural conditioning against living like them, lack of survival skills and because our life is immeasurably superior in almost every standard of living measurement."?

Do you not see the blatant contradiction underpining your argument against helping these people who don't really need our help there?

And I see hopeless optimism in assuming that they'll reach anything like that standard of living anytime soon.
If it was a question of discovering a tribe of cave people under Iceland, and this situation came up, then I would say "drag them out, even if it kills some 90% of them painfully and ruins their culture and let the surviving babies and people be adopted by the Icelanders to be raised into engineers".
That situation is far less likely here.

BTW, a question, since this seems the place to ask it, are the living standards in the "bottom" (I.E dirt poor) parts of the 3d world better or worse today as opposed to before colonialism? I'm suddenly quite curious, especially with such places as Ethiopia, Darfur, etc'.
If this is too OP then I'll repost it as a thread, sorry

[Stormin]

I believe they should be contacted and treated similar to the Amish, those that want to stay can those that want to leave can, leaving the tribe to live as primitive as they want without forcing people to stay.
I don't think that a tribe could be undiscovered without them trying pretty hard to hide from civilization. Contact could have included women raped by poachers, getting robbed, missionaries trying to force conversions etc, all stuff they might have wanted to avoid or get away from. They could have known what the airplane was and pointed weapons at it as their only way to say that it's not welcome around here.

[Straha]

Third is the fact that as people in the first world, our standards of living are immensely higher than what they could ever expect. The same would be true for most of the 2d world, and the elite or lucky in the 3d.
Of course, someone in Darfur might prefer having food and no guns.

So it's because "You have cultural conditioning against living like them, lack of survival skills and because our life is immeasurably superior in almost every standard of living measurement."?

Do you not see the blatant contradiction underpining your argument against helping these people who don't really need our help there?

And I see hopeless optimism in assuming that they'll reach anything like that standard of living anytime soon.

Nobody is saying that their standard of living can be raised to first world standards. What we are saying is that their standard of living can be made much better than it is now.

BTW, a question, since this seems the place to ask it, are the living standards in the "bottom" (I.E dirt poor) parts of the 3d world better or worse today as opposed to before colonialism? I'm suddenly quite curious, especially with such places as Ethiopia, Darfur, etc'.
If this is too OP then I'll repost it as a thread, sorry

I don't know about Darfur and Ethiopia. But IIRC Kenya and other South African countries today statistically have roughly the same GDP/Life expectancy as mid to late 19th century England. So much improved over what it was before colonialism.

[The Grim Squeaker]

So it's because "You have cultural conditioning against living like them, lack of survival skills and because our life is immeasurably superior in almost every standard of living measurement."?

Do you not see the blatant contradiction underpining your argument against helping these people who don't really need our help there?

And I see hopeless optimism in assuming that they'll reach anything like that standard of living anytime soon.

Nobody is saying that their standard of living can be raised to first world standards. What we are saying is that their standard of living can be made much better than it is now.

Which, as I said is arguable. It will probably improve over the very long term, but contact will result in most dying and great chances of exploitation, cultural and economic devastation, ecological ruin, etc'

BTW, a question, since this seems the place to ask it, are the living standards in the "bottom" (I.E dirt poor) parts of the 3d world better or worse today as opposed to before colonialism? I'm suddenly quite curious, especially with such places as Ethiopia, Darfur, etc'.
If this is too OP then I'll repost it as a thread, sorry

I don't know about Darfur and Ethiopia. But IIRC Kenya and other South African countries today statistically have roughly the same GDP/Life expectancy as mid to late 19th century England. So much improved over what it was before colonialism.

That means lower child mortality, no0t necessarily less of a chance of living well.
Still, my gut instinct is that they're better off (Barring the civil wars, genocides, overpopulation caused famine).
It really can be summed up as "severe overpopulation, without the centuries of economic, cultural, education growth that the western world had before its population exploded". The West just encourages it out of ("misguided?"?) altruism and guilt.
We'd be better off discussing this by PM or IM, It's of great interest, but I feel as though a Mod just stepped over my grave. WELL, FIGURE OF SPEECH. .

[Knife]

Which, as I said is arguable. It will probably improve over the very long term, but contact will result in most dying and great chances of exploitation, cultural and economic devastation, ecological ruin, etc'

Bullshit, short term will take a huge leap as well. At the very least, if there is a disruption of food supplies or a dead water buffalo upstream in the water supply giving them Cholera, help can be asked and received dramatically increasing their situation.

[Glass Pearl Player]

They could well indeed live for generations without our aide, however a simple case of a dead herd animal upstream of them could wipe out the entire tribe.

I beg your pardon? A dead herd animal as opposed to a dead jungle animal? Last time I checked, streams, creeks and rivers contain various species of fish, some of them would feed on carcasses and eat them completely before there would be any problem.
On the other hand, if a dead carcass thrown into a river would really pose a serious problem, they'd have noticed something about drinking from rivers, and they would either have a taboo in place ("do not drink from rivers, for it angers the mighty spirits and demons within"), found some cure for that, or would already have died out - their very existence, however, speaks against that. If there was any risk, by now, it should have killed them a long time ago.

Actually following the link in the OP and reading a bit or two, I found something even better:

Survival International says that although this particular group is increasing in number, others in the area are at risk from illegal logging.

(Emphasis mine)
This, IMHO, thoroughly disproves everyone who wants to "save" these savages from their "miserable fate". They seem to do well enough. Looking a little bit further, I found the statement:

"The surrounding area has signs of cultivation by the tribe, who are probably maintaining gardens of manioc, a type of tuber which would form a large part of their staple diet."

In other words, they already have agriculture.

[Knife]

I beg your pardon? A dead herd animal as opposed to a dead jungle animal? Last time I checked, streams, creeks and rivers contain various species of fish, some of them would feed on carcasses and eat them completely before there would be any problem.
On the other hand, if a dead carcass thrown into a river would really pose a serious problem, they'd have noticed something about drinking from rivers, and they would either have a taboo in place ("do not drink from rivers, for it angers the mighty spirits and demons within"), found some cure for that, or would already have died out - their very existence, however, speaks against that. If there was any risk, by now, it should have killed them a long time ago.

Missed the forest through the trees there buddy. The ability to ask for help from the rest of the fucking world immediately increases their standard of living via having help available in cases of unforeseen tragedy. Doesn't matter if one of the off the cuff examples of 'unforeseen tragedies' I threw out there is 100% feasible.

This, IMHO, thoroughly disproves everyone who wants to "save" these savages from their "miserable fate". They seem to do well enough. Looking a little bit further, I found the statement:

I don't want to 'save them' as much as I want them to be able to choose if they want to join the rest of the fucking world if they want. Sure, if they choose to join us and moved to Los Angles, they could end up with a shitty life instead of a better one. How ever, it was their choice to do so not our choice to act as god and determine that they are fine as there are and ensure they are left unmolested.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

So... has anybody come up with a way of actually contacting these people that doesn't involve exposing them to the types of diseases that kill off over 50% of the other isolated peoples we've contacted? Because that's the only thing that I have against contacting them, and as far as I can tell, no one's even bothered addressing it yet.

[Straha]

So... has anybody come up with a way of actually contacting these people that doesn't involve exposing them to the types of diseases that kill off over 50% of the other isolated peoples we've contacted? Because that's the only thing that I have against contacting them, and as far as I can tell, no one's even bothered addressing it yet.

Yes. Use people from nearby tribes as intermediaries. That way risk of infection to any outside pathogens is greatly reduced, along with the chances for massive cultural gaffes. I made reference to that a couple of posts back I believe.

[Knife]

So... has anybody come up with a way of actually contacting these people that doesn't involve exposing them to the types of diseases that kill off over 50% of the other isolated peoples we've contacted? Because that's the only thing that I have against contacting them, and as far as I can tell, no one's even bothered addressing it yet.

I thought the use a proxy plan from a few pages ago seemed fine. A known tribe to contact a semi known tribe closer to them to contact them. Perhaps with a couple waterskins full of MMR, DTAP, etc... added in. Seems like a nice start.

[TithonusSyndrome]

I'll also point out that for people who are supposedly starving, they do seem to have enough time and energy to entirely paint themselves.

If the body paint is a religious imperative, they'd probably go to great lengths to maintain it even through starvation.

Why the fuck do you assume they are starving you fucking moron? There is no famine in a jungle, they are surrounded by food. WIld and edible plants, edible animals, and probably cultivated manioc (granted, it is primitive agriculture, just cutting back competitor plants in an area and letting their food plants take over, but still...)

Don't be an illiterate fucktard, you high-strung whiner. I said that if the body paint is religiously motivated, then it's entirely possible they'll go to great lengths to maintain it even in the possible event of a famine. If you'd care to point out where I stated that they must be starving 24/7, then please do so, because I sure as hell can't see it.

[Death from the Sea]

For those that are wanting to make contact with the tribe to bring them civilization or technology or knowledge or whatever... it reminds me of the Christian missionaries wanting to bring Jesus to the unwashed masses.

IF the tribe was not successful at surviving where they are with their level of tech and what not, then they would be long dead. Leave 'em be. If they wander into town, then that is a different story.

[Shroom Man 777]

Except Jesus doesn't come with toilet seats so when you take a shit, Amazonian ass-fleas won't latch onto your butt-crack to feast upon your precious bodily fluids.

Just because they're "successful" at surviving doesn't mean anything. Would anyone actually want our ancestors to have never advanced, just staying at where they were, successfully surviving with their current level of tech, getting eaten by mastadons and triceratopses, and dying at the age of 40?

A lot of people are thankful that their primitive ancestors were able to trade their trinkets and beans for toilets from more advanced peoples, thus advancing the greater sum of humanity as a whole.

The problem was that more often than not, this trade and exchange of cultures came with stuff like smallpox. So it's not 100% awesome.

However, if people could give these primitives fancy stuff like toilet seats without inflicting upon them the horrors of disease and pestilence and Herman Cortez, then all the better.

[Knife]

For those that are wanting to make contact with the tribe to bring them civilization or technology or knowledge or whatever... it reminds me of the Christian missionaries wanting to bring Jesus to the unwashed masses.

IF the tribe was not successful at surviving where they are with their level of tech and what not, then they would be long dead. Leave 'em be. If they wander into town, then that is a different story.

How the fuck is god (of any stripe) any where near medicine, sanitation, stable food supply, and good old damn fashion-here's what the big wide world looks like even remotely fucking comparable?

[Resinence]

If a rift opened over New York, some scary-ass looking ship flew over and then disappeared into another after every SAM in the area paints them. Would you want to contact them? What if an alien disease wipes out humanity? It's a risk I'm betting a huge majority of this board would find acceptable if it could lead to humanity receiving technology from a trans-galactic alien civilization.

Except in this scenario we are the aliens and they are the humans with bows and arrows instead of sam sites. Why does them being savages change this scenario? Why the fuck are you retards idolizing the completely shitty life of a savage? They aren't god damn animals that we should protect from destruction. They are sapient human beings, and they deserve better. And if they were sapient frog men I'd still say the same thing. Why don't one of you explain and give actual tangible reasons why living like a savage is a good thing that should be protected.

Christian Missionaries. Wow. It's already been answered but that's just way out in left field. The two are not even remotely the same. I just can't believe that in this day and age we still have arguments about how superior fucking tribal cultures are to modern society. Fuck you and your cultural superiority, go live in africa for a few years.

[Justforfun000]

So... has anybody come up with a way of actually contacting these people that doesn't involve exposing them to the types of diseases that kill off over 50% of the other isolated peoples we've contacted? Because that's the only thing that I have against contacting them, and as far as I can tell, no one's even bothered addressing it yet.

I thought about this through this entire thread and I'm surprised no one else has commented on it. Besides chronically "active" diseases like STD's, are not all major communicable diseases dead once your immune system has dealt with it? I went through measles, chicken pox, cold's and flu's, but correct me if I'm wrong....these are no longer infectious from me, right?

So what's so hard about quarantining people for a couple of weeks and ensuring they have no current diseases and then send them on to make parley? I would suggest they don't sleep with them..

[ArmorPierce]

A lot of people are saying stuff like we need to give them a chance to have our standard of living. Have any of you been to some of the rural south american villages? Industrialism hasn't helped them any. Many of them lacks proper sanitation and medicine. They work as back breaking laborers for half the day for little pay. Why is it assumed that us making contact with them would bring their standards up to ours? Why are they even being compared to our standard of living? They should be compared to rural third world areas and compared in that way to get a more accurate gauge.

I thought about this through this entire thread and I'm surprised no one else has commented on it. Besides chronically "active" diseases like STD's, are not all major communicable diseases dead once your immune system has dealt with it? I went through measles, chicken pox, cold's and flu's, but correct me if I'm wrong....these are no longer infectious from me, right?

So what's so hard about quarantining people for a couple of weeks and ensuring they have no current diseases and then send them on to make parley? I would suggest they don't sleep with them.. Wink

I believe that you can still be a carrier even if the disease don't affect you.

[Justforfun000]

I believe that you can still be a carrier even if the disease don't affect you

But in one sense, it's the same as having an active disease. For example some people can be chronic carriers of Hepatitis B. Others had it, cleared it completely from the body naturally and are now forever immune. So that person is no longer infectious.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be tto difficult to work with the communicable disease issue.

[PainRack]

I thought about this through this entire thread and I'm surprised no one else has commented on it. Besides chronically "active" diseases like STD's, are not all major communicable diseases dead once your immune system has dealt with it? I went through measles, chicken pox, cold's and flu's, but correct me if I'm wrong....these are no longer infectious from me, right?

So what's so hard about quarantining people for a couple of weeks and ensuring they have no current diseases and then send them on to make parley? I would suggest they don't sleep with them..

Because your body harbour more germs than that. Flu for example, or even just latent TB.

Also, I believe the idea here isn't to contact them with just people, but also to give them the option of technology, supplies and aid from other peoples. Trade itself is the most profilic form of disease travel.

[Justforfun000]

Because your body harbour more germs than that. Flu for example, or even just latent TB.

Latent TB I can understand, but flu? I thought if it's gone it's gone.

Anyone out there have a definitive on this? It's not something I'm educated enough on but I was pretty sure that other then those specific things like blood borne diseases, or an uncommon carrier disease like latent TB, we were pretty much A-OK after the infectious period had past..

[Keevan_Colton]

I'd like to point out that the debate has jumped the should/could line and is no longer about "should we contact them" and more about "how could we?"

[Invictus ChiKen]

I'd like to point out that the debate has jumped the should/could line and is no longer about "should we contact them" and more about "how could we?"

About God damned time to! Isn't this the same board that bitchs about the prime directive in Star Trek???

An for the record if a bunch of greys snatched me tomorrow and poked and prodded me for the better part of a year then offered me a place in a super Culture level, Star Wars level, or shit even Star Trek level civilization I'd call it an even trade.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I'd like to point out that the debate has jumped the should/could line and is no longer about "should we contact them" and more about "how could we?"

About God damned time to! Isn't this the same board that bitchs about the prime directive in Star Trek???

An for the record if a bunch of greys snatched me tomorrow and poked and prodded me for the better part of a year then offered me a place in a super Culture level, Star Wars level, or shit even Star Trek level civilization I'd call it an even trade.

Eexcellent, cheap, 3d planet labour to make circuit boards for our robots. Remember fleshbag, falling behind your 18 hour day quote will result in being unable to maintain your repayments on your immune vacine, the immortality drug, or the highly delicious and highly addictive nectarium foods.

[Glass Pearl Player]

Missed the forest through the trees there buddy. The ability to ask for help from the rest of the fucking world immediately increases their standard of living via having help available in cases of unforeseen tragedy. Doesn't matter if one of the off the cuff examples of 'unforeseen tragedies' I threw out there is 100% feasible.

So far, so good, but as others have already mentioned: If it could happen to them, it probably has happened before, perhaps more than once, and it didn't kill them all. The only things that could get them - and I can think of - are either sudden natural disasters (a landslide at night getting them all while asleep in their huts, for example) or "intervention" by other humans (communicable diseases, for one). Neither of them can be prevented by making contact with them. If someone can come up with a counterexample to my argument, I'd be glad to hear it.

I don't want to 'save them' as much as I want them to be able to choose if they want to join the rest of the fucking world if they want. Sure, if they choose to join us and moved to Los Angles, they could end up with a shitty life instead of a better one. How ever, it was their choice to do so not our choice to act as god and determine that they are fine as there are and ensure they are left unmolested.

I might be mistaken, but aren't they already aware of white men and decided not to make contact with them? Some other news articles mention that some tribes deliberately refrain from contact, for reasons already given.

But for now, let's assume they want and accept contact with civilisation and we get to offer them this choice. Any ideas on how to educate them so that they can make an informed choice?