The Great Evangelical Decline

[mr friendly guy]

saw this link on Richard Dawkin's site

The Great Evangelical Decline

What Baptist leaders have known for years is finally public: The Southern Baptist Convention is a denomination in decline. Half of the SBC's 43,000 churches will have shut their doors by 2030 if current trends continue.

And unless God provides a miracle, the trends will continue. The denomination's growth rate has been declining since the 1950s. The conservative/fundamentalist takeover 30 years ago was supposed to turn the trend around; it didn't make a bit of difference.

Leaders said it did. Reporters and politicians believed it did. But the numbers kept going down until, finally, they have become obvious to everyone.

Evangelical faith has been dropping since 1900, when 42 percent of the U.S. claimed that distinction. Every year, Religious Right evangelicals, such as those who lead the Southern Baptists, are a smaller proportion of the country. Every year, their core values are violated more flagrantly by the media, scientific discovery and mainstream behavior. Every election, politicians promise to serve them and then don't because evangelicals lack the power to make them.

What all this means is that we were duped.

All the hype proclaiming an evangelical resurgence was merely that - hype, a furious shout from a faith losing its grip, manipulation by a relatively small group of dedicated, focused, political power-seekers.

The long decline of Southern Baptist faith is critical to the entire evangelical movement because the Southern Baptist Convention, which claims 16 million members, is the biggest evangelical denomination in the country, almost six times as large as the next biggest predominately white evangelical denomination.

The second-largest evangelical group, the National Association of Evangelicals, has claimed 30 million members. Their churches actually have 7.6 million, tops. Most of those are having the same problems the Baptists are having.

As the true picture of evangelicals' problems has developed, panicked leaders are splitting into camps. Some say that the church is lax, soft, sold out. That what's needed is an even bigger dose of the medicine that the SBC fundamentalist takeover delivered. More authority, more strict interpretations of the Bible, more sermons about sin and suffering and sacrifice, more rigor about who is and who isn't getting to go to heaven.

Others say the problem is image. Evangelicals have been seen as mean-spirited and narrow. Caring about the environment and giving more attention to the poor and needy will turn it around. Get out of politics, they say. Play down abortion and gay rights. That will fix the problem.

But these responses won't halt the increasing irrelevance of evangelical faith to the great majority of the U.S. population. Here are just three of the many reasons.

One is Alcoholics Anonymous and all its 12-step offspring - the creation of two Christian men who wanted to help alcoholics. They modeled AA on the teachings of Jesus and the ideas of philosopher William James. Instead of asking alcoholics to be saved, they asked them to call on a god of their own understanding.

They eschewed guilt and any talk of sinfulness. Repentance was directed at specific people who had been harmed. There was no doctrine, no institution, no demand for monetary support.

Tens of millions of addicts and other troubled people learned that they didn't have to read the Bible, attend church or follow a preacher's rules to engage a divine power that could heal them.

Such open-ended faith had never been experienced before. And so the role of the church as interpreter of God's truth and the Bible as its sole repository lost power with millions.

The second attack came within the church as American evangelicals themselves became less willing to proclaim that they are the only ones saved. That idea had seemed reasonable when people lived in fairly homogeneous groups. Since few people had much to do with foreigners - except in times of war, when they were trying to kill them, or from behind a tourist's camera, when they were making souvenirs of them - "our way is the only way" seemed reasonable.

But international travel, business and communication have changed that. So have huge waves of immigration. Now "the other" is likely to be your son-in-law or grandchild.

The idea that only one little part of one kind of religion has the only way to God has begun to seem more and more unlikely, rude, un-Christian, even. And evangelicals, who don't like being boorish any more than anyone else, have become less and less willing to relegate their neighbors to hell.

So we have a completely formless god of great power and instant accessibility romping around, rescuing millions whom everyone else had given up on. Then we have more Christians getting squeamish about proclaiming hegemony over heaven.

And along comes The Pill. Nothing in history has changed human relations as much as that little white pill.

The curse God laid on Eve wasn't quite so ironclad anymore. Skip forward a few decades, and couples started delaying marriage until their late 20s, 30s or even 40s. But that pill meant there was less pressure to abstain from sex until the wedding.

So hardly anyone did. Evangelical leaders resolutely hewed to the abstinence standard at least formally, resulting in little more than extra hypocrisy.

That didn't matter much. Hypocrisy has always flourished, and it hasn't killed the church yet. But evangelicals' failure to grapple with change meant the church was no help in a world where people were expected to sleep together long before marriage and desperately sought guidance about when and with whom.

Evangelical leaders defend their stance by claiming that God doesn't change and that neither does sin. But sin does change. Slavery wasn't sin once. Now it is. Taking a wife and a concubine wasn't sin once. Now it is.

And God - or our understanding of what God is, which is all we actually have - changes, too. Human understandings are remolded so that faith can remain vital and effective during new times.

Whether evangelical intransigence is pleasing to God isn't anything that humans can ever be absolutely sure of. If it is pleasing to him, God may send a great revival that will sweep the country and restore them to their place of predominance.

Such revivals have happened before. They could happen again.

But I've named only three of the ways that evangelical faith has come to seem less useful, necessary and vital to those who might benefit from its teachings. Evangelical faith is failing in so many other ways that a growing number of Christians believe a New Reformation is needed.

If they are correct, the Southern Baptist Convention is unlikely to lead that reformation. Let's hope it is at least around to participate.

Christine Wicker is the author of "The Fall of the Evangelical Nation: The Surprising Crisis Inside the Church." Her e-mail address is christine@christinewicker.com and her web address is www.christinewicker.com

Posted without comment for now.

[CaptainZoidberg]

I think the Baptists need to get back to community service, charity, etc.

That will build up a good reputation and image from which to push their positions.

[Mr Bean]

I think the Baptists need to get back to community service, charity, etc.

That will build up a good reputation and image from which to push their positions.

Their postions frankly are that everything fun is sinful and your going to hell you sinner, oh and your a baby-killer if you support abortion.

Yeah.. good luck with that

[Kanastrous]

Are waves of suicides too much to hope for...?

[Guardsman Bass]

What churches are growing quickly in the United States (and not simply because of small initial numbers)? The Baptists could always just borrow shamelessly from their books of missionary tactics.

[Coyote]

Islam and Mormonism are growing fast. Good luck with that!

[Fleet Admiral JD]

Are waves of suicides too much to hope for...?

I R INTARWEB TOUGH GUY! WANT PEOPLE TO KILL SELVES FOR RELIGION!


I can understand disagreeing with their ideas, but hoping for mass suicide? Shut the fuck up.

[Big Phil]

Posted without comment for now.

When will you have a comment?


Here's my comment - I hope this guy is right; of course the Evangelical movement won't die quietly. They'll thrash and scream and do their damndest to bring others down with them, which means even more right-wing efforts trying to ban drugs, sex, abortion, sugar, and alcohol until they finally die.

[wautd]

On the decline? You wouldn't say. They sure seem as loud as always

[Kanastrous]

Are waves of suicides too much to hope for...?

I R INTARWEB TOUGH GUY! WANT PEOPLE TO KILL SELVES FOR RELIGION!

I wonder what impresses you as "tough" - or even wannabe-tough - about that. Tough would be executing a killing spree, or something. Entertaining the possibility, is mostly just lazy.

I can understand disagreeing with their ideas, but hoping for mass suicide? Shut the fuck up.

They're fucking pernicious. The worst of them, and the best of them, who provide cover and carry water, for the worst of them. There's dead and wounded people in noticeable numbers - suicides, hate-crime victims, war dead and veterans messed up for life, mis-educated and un-educated people left to make their way in the world, real damage done.

So if some malignant bible-whackers see their influenced diminished, feel their Holy Rolling Magic Bus to the Kingdom of God sputter and stall, slide into a depression, and eat their shotguns, I won't shed a tear.

Shut the fuck up, yourself. Go sell self-righteous bullshit somewhere else; if you haven't noticed, I'm all stocked up, here.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Islam and Mormonism are growing fast. Good luck with that!

Irreligion is also growing in the US, the ARIS found that between '90 and '01 the number of irreligious people grew from 8.4% to 15%.

[The Spartan]

I think the Baptists need to get back to community service, charity, etc.

That will build up a good reputation and image from which to push their positions.

Are you saying you want this?

Because I sure as hell don't. My dad is the black sheep of his family because he got a divorce from his cheating wife back in the 70's. He also never got to know his uncle (who was the orginal guitar player for Bob Wills) which really irks him because he's a big fan. The reason? Because Uncle Herman was a musician and played in bars and dance halls where there was drinking and dancing. OOO!!! EVIL!

Fuck the Baptists. They have far too much power and I hope the entire organization withers and dies to become little more than a few backwards jackasses whistling into a hurricane.

[Knife]

Islam and Mormonism are growing fast. Good luck with that!

And the mormons do it the old fashion way, breed new members. Well that and go to 3rd world countries to recruit new sheep.

OT: With all the talk about the secular Europe and bible thumping US, we're really only a couple decades behind Europe in washing our hands of religion to a major extent. At least IMO. I'd like to live long enough for that critical mass to build and come to pass.

[CaptainZoidberg]

They're fucking pernicious. The worst of them, and the best of them, who provide cover and carry water, for the worst of them. There's dead and wounded people in noticeable numbers - suicides, hate-crime victims, war dead and veterans messed up for life, mis-educated and un-educated people left to make their way in the world, real damage done.

But you want 23+ million of them to go kill themselves? Of course, I'd hope that they become Deists or find a way to make their faith more peaceful, but I don't want them to die.

So if some malignant bible-whackers see their influenced diminished, feel their Holy Rolling Magic Bus to the Kingdom of God sputter and stall, slide into a depression, and eat their shotguns, I won't shed a tear.

You won't shed a tear if twenty million people die? You can't be serious.

Shut the fuck up, yourself. Go sell self-righteous bullshit somewhere else; if you haven't noticed, I'm all stocked up, here.

I've only known one person who was a southern baptist. Sure, some of his ideas were nutty "My biology teacher only teaches one side of the issue" or "I don't hate gay people - I hate their lifestyle", but it's not like he's going to go kill someone. And besides, living in a community that is overwhelmingly hostile to intelligent design has allowed him to see some of the flaws in his church's reasoning.

Baptist people might have a flawed and often destructive belief system, but they're still people.

[Knife]

But you want 23+ million of them to go kill themselves? Of course, I'd hope that they become Deists or find a way to make their faith more peaceful, but I don't want them to die.

Actually I'm willing to put forth that probably not all 23 million of them are bible thumpers. Just normal folk who go to church and say they believe in god just from tradition rather than an active case of 'belief'. I'm sure a lot of them would rather stay at home on sundays and participate in their real religion, football. But their wives won't let them.

[SirNitram]

I think the Baptists need to get back to community service, charity, etc.

That will build up a good reputation and image from which to push their positions.

Are you saying you want this?

Preferrable to what they're doing in Iraq, metaphorically painting targets on the backs of troops and the local Christian denominations.

[CaptainZoidberg]

Actually I'm willing to put forth that probably not all 23 million of them are bible thumpers. Just normal folk who go to church and say they believe in god just from tradition rather than an active case of 'belief'. I'm sure a lot of them would rather stay at home on sundays and participate in their real religion, football. But their wives won't let them.

Most churches are that way, but Baptists seem to be much more committed.

[Gil Hamilton]

What I find interesting and somewhat scary is alot of people are in schism with the Baptist church for the old classical reason... that they are afraid the church isn't hardcore enough and want to get back to less tolerance and more "my way, or the highway".

And the mormons do it the old fashion way, breed new members. Well that and go to 3rd world countries to recruit new sheep.

A friend of mine who works in Utah near Brigham Young University refers to that institution as "Breed 'Em Young" and there is a sense that an uterus that isn't baking a new Mormon is a waste one.

[Setzer]

You know, I'm reminded of Nuggan from the Discworld books. He was an irritable straight laced god who declared damn near everything an Abomination unto Nuggan. The only real developments among followers of Nuggan were new abominations, ranging from beets, babies, dwarves, the color blue, and jigsaw puzzles. Worship of Nuggan died out because the focus of belief shifted from the god to the things he'd banned.

There's a lesson to be learned there. Shame it's probably wasted on the Southern Baptist crowd.

[The Spartan]

I think the Baptists need to get back to community service, charity, etc.

That will build up a good reputation and image from which to push their positions.

Are you saying you want this?

Preferrable to what they're doing in Iraq, metaphorically painting targets on the backs of troops and the local Christian denominations.

It's not the community service and charity bit that concerns me, it's the bit I've bolded above.

[SirNitram]

Are you saying you want this?

Preferrable to what they're doing in Iraq, metaphorically painting targets on the backs of troops and the local Christian denominations.

It's not the community service and charity bit that concerns me, it's the bit I've bolded above.

I can suffer their popularity failing to implode(Because as much wishful thinking as we have, it will not) if they stop fucking getting people killed.

[The Spartan]

I can suffer their popularity failing to implode(Because as much wishful thinking as we have, it will not) if they stop fucking getting people killed.

That's a compromise I can live with as well. But my issue was with what appeared to be Zoidberg's hope that they would revive their waning popularity. Though I'll admit I may have misunderstood him...

[CaptainZoidberg]

I can suffer their popularity failing to implode(Because as much wishful thinking as we have, it will not) if they stop fucking getting people killed.

That's a compromise I can live with as well. But my issue was with what appeared to be Zoidberg's hope that they would revive their waning popularity. Though I'll admit I may have misunderstood him...

I was more looking at it from an angle of "What's their best move at this point, from their POV?", not "What move would be the best for the nation?"

Moreover, I think that the Baptists have their hearts in the right place on a lot of issues, but they aren't thinking hard enough / don't have the information straight. A lot of Creationists seem to think that the theory of evolution contains some moral imperative to be completely selfish. Their heart is in the right place (they don't want selfishness), but they're not thinking of it the right way. They don't see that evolution is a theory about our origins, not a statement of morality.

[The Spartan]

I was more looking at it from an angle of "What's their best move at this point, from their POV?", not "What move would be the best for the nation?"

Fair enough. I was probably being bit overly sensitive.

Moreover, I think that the Baptists have their hearts in the right place on a lot of issues, but they aren't thinking hard enough / don't have the information straight. A lot of Creationists seem to think that the theory of evolution contains some moral imperative to be completely selfish. Their heart is in the right place (they don't want selfishness), but they're not thinking of it the right way. They don't see that evolution is a theory about our origins, not a statement of morality.

The short of it is this: Having your heart in the right place is not good enough if your head isn't there too.

[General Zod]

I was more looking at it from an angle of "What's their best move at this point, from their POV?", not "What move would be the best for the nation?"

Moreover, I think that the Baptists have their hearts in the right place on a lot of issues, but they aren't thinking hard enough / don't have the information straight. A lot of Creationists seem to think that the theory of evolution contains some moral imperative to be completely selfish. Their heart is in the right place (they don't want selfishness), but they're not thinking of it the right way. They don't see that evolution is a theory about our origins, not a statement of morality.

That's because baptists don't generally think. Their imperative is to follow whatever their magic sky pixie or preacher tells them, not think. Because thinking leads to things like, I dunno, their church membership drastically falling when people realize their holy book is full of shit.