Could Mace Windu be alive?

Swindle1984 · Post by **Swindle1984** » 2008-05-13 09:20pm

Robot Chicken pretty conclusively states that Mace Windu is not only dead, but that his body was disposed of by a lowly janitor.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2008-05-13 11:06pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
General Schatten wrote:Can you explain to me how it ruins the symbolism? As far as I know RotJ is now considered the finale to a tale of fall and redemption. Skywalker redemed himself and gave Luke time enough to become stronger in the Force, had Vader not done that Luke would've been dead at Endor and the Emperor would be immortal.
RotJ was the finale to the tale of Anakin Skywalker. The Chosen One. And, as per Episode I, the Chosen One was supposed to, inevitably, bring balance to the force. His redemption (i.e. saving Luke and killing Palpatine) brought balance to the Force, because Palpatine represented the Dark Side. That is, after Vader's death in RotJ, balance had been brought to the Force.

The resurrected Emperor ruins that symbolism and that theme by saying that Anakin Skywalker was NOT the Chosen One, and his "redemption" didn't destroy the Dark Side at all. And by the time of the death of the resurrected Emperor, there was a new shitty Jedi Order, and so the Force never achieves balance.

Technically Anakin did set into motion the balancing of the Force, had he not killed Palpatine the first time Luke and all the people that would have contributed to his final death would've been eliminated before the deed could be done.

TC Pilot · Post by **TC Pilot** » 2008-05-13 11:55pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:The resurrected Emperor ruins that symbolism and that theme by saying that Anakin Skywalker was NOT the Chosen One, and his "redemption" didn't destroy the Dark Side at all.

No, it only "ruins that symbolism and that theme" when you make the totally unfounded assumption that Palpatine's resurrection invalidates the prophecy and unbalances the Force (It doesn't. That's how G-canon works).

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-05-14 08:21am

havokeff wrote:I fund this incredibly amusing coming from you, as a person that so vehemently defends the EU and the Clone Palpatine which not only ruins the the symbolism of Episode VI, but undermines the point of the entire movie saga.

As others have said, that would depend on what interpretation of the prophecy you adhere to and what assumptions you make. There is not really any inherent contradiction there.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-05-14 10:57am

A better question is should Mace Windu be dead? What is served by having him live?

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-05-14 01:51pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:A better question is should Mace Windu be dead? What is served by having him live?

This really is the debate. Whether or not he could have survived isn't really the issue, since most seem to feel that he did have the ability and power to survive. AFAIAC, his being alive serves nothing. However I also felt that brining back Palpatine served nothing, nor did bringing back Boba Fett.
I think a better question is, could someone come up with a story for Mace that doesn't have him quintessentially involved in galactic affairs, but that can still serve people like me that really like the character, but hate the EU trend of every main character saving the galaxy.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-05-19 08:03am

Most likely he probably survived the drop; but either died shortly thereafter from wounds inflicted on him by palpie, or became a non-entity living in the ruins of the jedi temple until his natural death.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2008-05-27 08:40am

I know this thread's a little old, but I found something that answers Napoleon's question:

Napoleon the Clown wrote: In any event, hasn't it been explicitly stated that Mace died?

I believe so.

[u]Dark Lord[/u], Page 132 wrote: Darth Sidious had had most of his beloved Sith statues and ancient bas-reliefs removed from his ruined chambers in the Senate Office Building, where four Jedi had lost their lives and one had been converted to the dark side.

I suppose someone could argue that's somehow told from Palpatine's POV, but it's an omniscient narrative to my eyes. Windu bought it.

Pulp Hero · Post by **Pulp Hero** » 2008-06-06 12:01am

havokeff wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:A better question is should Mace Windu be dead? What is served by having him live?
This really is the debate. Whether or not he could have survived isn't really the issue, since most seem to feel that he did have the ability and power to survive. AFAIAC, his being alive serves nothing. However I also felt that brining back Palpatine served nothing, nor did bringing back Boba Fett.
I think a better question is, could someone come up with a story for Mace that doesn't have him quintessentially involved in galactic affairs, but that can still serve people like me that really like the character, but hate the EU trend of every main character saving the galaxy.

I quite like the idea of him being a crazy, amnesic homeless guy that has just the smallest shred of his former power that he uses to like occasionally save another bum or something.

Swindle1984 · Post by **Swindle1984** » 2008-06-06 12:41am

seanrobertson wrote:I know this thread's a little old, but I found something that answers Napoleon's question:

Napoleon the Clown wrote: In any event, hasn't it been explicitly stated that Mace died?
I believe so.

[u]Dark Lord[/u], Page 132 wrote: Darth Sidious had had most of his beloved Sith statues and ancient bas-reliefs removed from his ruined chambers in the Senate Office Building, where four Jedi had lost their lives and one had been converted to the dark side.
I suppose someone could argue that's somehow told from Palpatine's POV, but it's an omniscient narrative to my eyes. Windu bought it.

Wait- he had SITH statues in his office, and none of the Jedi noticed? That's like someone having a bust of Hitler and a swastika on the wall and no one catching on.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2008-06-06 12:55am

Swindle1984 wrote:Wait- he had SITH statues in his office, and none of the Jedi noticed? That's like someone having a bust of Hitler and a swastika on the wall and no one catching on.

It's entirely possible that they didn't recognise them, because the Sith had been dormant for so long, and their faces weren't as well known as Hitler's is to us.

Dark Flame · Post by **Dark Flame** » 2008-06-06 10:08pm

Gandalf wrote:
It's entirely possible that they didn't recognise them, because the Sith had been dormant for so long, and their faces weren't as well known as Hitler's is to us.

I don't know if you meant it like this, but some of them could also be more recent Sith, like Palpatine's own Master. The Jedi had never even seen any of them and wouldn't recognize them as Sith at all.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2008-06-07 12:06am

also they're statues aka peices of art, no one assumes you're a roman if you got a roman (or roman-style) statue in your home/office/school, for all we know the Jedi knew exactly what they depicted they just didn't know why palpatine had them there.

after we've seen those statues and they don't seem to anything but rather stylized depiction of robed humanoid shapes no sith lore or teaching there to be seen unless it's hiden.

it's more like having Nazi-era artwork on the walls when everyone has forgetten them, beond some eccentric artistic intrest.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2008-06-07 12:29am

Like having one of Hitler's paintings from the part of his life before he became dictator.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2008-06-07 08:25am

If you're secretly a Nazi, and people might suspect you of being such, wouldn't that be a Pretty Fucking Dumb Thing™ to put on display in your house?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2008-06-07 08:38am

Dooey Jo wrote:If you're secretly a Nazi, and people might suspect you of being such, wouldn't that be a Pretty Fucking Dumb Thing™ to put on display in your house?

When no one knows who or what a Nazi is for the past 1000 years?

They had the word of one who betrayed the Order as the return of the Sith. Yeah, prime evidence there

.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-06-07 01:52pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Dooey Jo wrote:If you're secretly a Nazi, and people might suspect you of being such, wouldn't that be a Pretty Fucking Dumb Thing™ to put on display in your house?
When no one knows who or what a Nazi is for the past 1000 years?

They had the word of one who betrayed the Order as the return of the Sith. Yeah, prime evidence there .

Qui Gon betrayed the Order?!

Seriously though. There really would be no reason why anyone would recognize Sith artifacts, even the Jedi. Even just studying Sith lore tends to lead one down the dark path and I'm sure the Jedi are aware of that and IIRC have all records concerning the Sith either protected or destroyed. On top of the fact that there are so many different incarnations of the Sith over their history, that pegging down one statue would probably require an expert of the highest quality.

And comparing it to Nazism is not an good choice as not only was the actual Third Reich only 70+ years ago, but there are still neo-Nazis in existence that still use the same symbols. It's never been out of the public eye.

And even beyond that, what one person may recognize as a Nazi symbol, another may recognize as a Hindu symbol. Now compare that cultural difference on a planet with a few thousand years of history to a colonized GALAXY with what, 40,000 years of recorded history? Yeah, a couple of statues could certainly go unnoticed.

What I would wonder about though, is that mural carving that actually depicts a battle between Sith and Jedi in the hallway. How did the Jedi miss that.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-06-07 02:07pm

havokeff wrote:What I would wonder about though, is that mural carving that actually depicts a battle between Sith and Jedi in the hallway. How did the Jedi miss that.

How would that in any way be suspicious? If they assume anything besides the Supreme Chancellor being interested in classical art in the first place, it still appears to be nothing but a depiction of good Jedi fighting evil Sith to them. In the Soviet Union, you might be sent to Siberia for having a picture of Hitler in your office, but not one of the Victorious Red Army driving the Evil Fascist Invaders back to whence they came and beyond.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-06-07 04:10pm

Darth Hoth wrote:
havokeff wrote:What I would wonder about though, is that mural carving that actually depicts a battle between Sith and Jedi in the hallway. How did the Jedi miss that.
How would that in any way be suspicious? If they assume anything besides the Supreme Chancellor being interested in classical art in the first place, it still appears to be nothing but a depiction of good Jedi fighting evil Sith to them. In the Soviet Union, you might be sent to Siberia for having a picture of Hitler in your office, but not one of the Victorious Red Army driving the Evil Fascist Invaders back to whence they came and beyond.

Well it would be suspicious because for the 1st time in 1000 years there is confirmed evidence of Sith activity and all of a sudden the new Supreme Chancellor who happens to be from the same planet that had the first confirmed Sith sighting in 1000 years, decides to decorate his office with a Sith battle mural where IIRC, the Sith are victorious.

I'm not saying it's blatantly obvious, but a suspicious mind might have seen it.

Darth Nostril · Post by **Darth Nostril** » 2008-06-07 05:03pm

But a major point of the prequel trilogy is the growing arrogance of the Jedi, why would they be suspicious when they had kicked sith arse 1000 years ago

Besides how many Jedi actually entered Palpatines chambers ? Apart from Anakin they appeared to meet in the public areas or through holograms

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2008-06-07 05:20pm

havokeff wrote: Well it would be suspicious because for the 1st time in 1000 years there is confirmed evidence of Sith activity and all of a sudden the new Supreme Chancellor who happens to be from the same planet that had the first confirmed Sith sighting in 1000 years, decides to decorate his office with a Sith battle mural where IIRC, the Sith are victorious.

I'm not saying it's blatantly obvious, but a suspicious mind might have seen it.

Wasn't the mural an ancient depiction of a battle between Jedi and Sith, not just a Sith Mural?

Also, I don't believe the Sith sighting on Naboo and Palpatine's election should rouse any kind of suspicion. It's easy to assume Maul was there working with the Trade Federation, sympathy from the TF Invasion got Palpatine elected. Because we know all of the events taking place we know it was a plot, but to an outside observer in universe it would only appear as a convenience for Palpatine who put on a very good show to conceal his motives.

Adam Reynolds · Post by **Adam Reynolds** » 2008-06-07 06:16pm

Darth Nostril wrote: Besides how many Jedi actually entered Palpatines chambers ? Apart from Anakin they appeared to meet in the public areas or through holograms

IIRC, in the beginning of AOTC both Mace and Yoda were in his chambers discussing the rise of the Separatists.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-06-07 07:41pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:
havokeff wrote: Well it would be suspicious because for the 1st time in 1000 years there is confirmed evidence of Sith activity and all of a sudden the new Supreme Chancellor who happens to be from the same planet that had the first confirmed Sith sighting in 1000 years, decides to decorate his office with a Sith battle mural where IIRC, the Sith are victorious.

I'm not saying it's blatantly obvious, but a suspicious mind might have seen it.
Wasn't the mural an ancient depiction of a battle between Jedi and Sith, not just a Sith Mural?

havokeff wrote:What I would wonder about though, is that mural carving that actually depicts a battle between Sith and Jedi in the hallway. How did the Jedi miss that.

Reading is your friend.

Also, I don't believe the Sith sighting on Naboo and Palpatine's election should rouse any kind of suspicion. It's easy to assume Maul was there working with the Trade Federation, sympathy from the TF Invasion got Palpatine elected. Because we know all of the events taking place we know it was a plot, but to an outside observer in universe it would only appear as a convenience for Palpatine who put on a very good show to conceal his motives.

No, not the sighting and the election alone, but that coupled with the mural, which high ranking members of the Jedi council routinely walk by and see, should have at least provoked a "huh??". I mean... it's not exactly subtle...

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2008-06-07 08:03pm

From what little you've posted, it's a scene of a historical battle between Sith and Jedi. At this point, I can't even tell which is Jedi and which are Sith, although the picture of the bearded man on the lizard echoes Obi Wan and his mount.

.... Is that a Dewback?!

Anyway, if you want to discuss this mural, please post either a link or the whole mural so we can all see it clearly.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2008-06-07 08:03pm

While it looks to us as an obvious point, there is the thought that literally "...and so?" response that anyone could deflect. Relying on pure supposition to even question the highest authority in a government you are suborned to...is not the way to handle things. Just because the man has strange taste in art leads to having the opponent passing off your more legitimate questions with ease because of paranoia.