I could not find any such scenario when searching; if there is one already, feel free to flame me.
In any case, the scenario posited is as follows:
A year before the Battle of Endor, the Empire discovers a classical-style wormhole, this one leading to the Dreddverse. Palpatine, sending through stealthy probes that no one on the other side notices and scrying a bit himself, becomes interested in its world (there may be some psychic phenomenon to draw his attention, or he is just into it for shits and giggles, whatever). Anyway, he decides to capture the planet, particularly (what he thinks is) their capital, Mega-City One.
He dispatches a task force, with an unspecified number of Star Destroyers and what ground forces he feels is reasonable to conquer Earth, led by Darth Vader. The Imperial Navy is sent through the wormhole. They start attacking Earth's space assets upon jumping in from Hyperspace, then proceed with a full ground assault.
The Empire easily has the resources to defeat about whatever Earth can muster, but how hard will it be for them to take the planet? How long will it take, and what casualties will they suffer? Core assumptions are:
*The Empire is as of 3 ABY;
*The Empire cannot employ orbital bombardment, Nightcloaks or other weapons of mass destruction due to Palpatine's arbitrary orders, making it an air/ground battle; he is afraid of destroying psychic shrines or whatnots;
*Dreddverse is as of the time immediately preceding the Apocalypse War (before Block Mania), and the Sov Block will not launch their attack with the invasion coming.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
With no real way to dislodge the Star Destroyers from orbit, and everything being all clustered up in nice discrete packages, I'm seeing this being a curbstomp for the Empire.
Vendetta wrote:With no real way to dislodge the Star Destroyers from orbit, and everything being all clustered up in nice discrete packages, I'm seeing this being a curbstomp for the Empire.
The Megacities do have an interstellar space fleet (And independenat space stations and extra solar colonies colonies), although I can't recall how effective those ships weapons are.
The Megacities shields are quite effective (It easily stopped the 3d world war Nuke explosions that reduced the world to a charred, radioactive desert everywhere except for the protected Megacities), although that's not enough of a reason to suppose that the laser grids could stop a BDZ. (Then Again, the Total Annihilation Missiles used by Mega-City 1 were able to fucking destroy a planet when used and deflected by the Apocalypse Warp the Sovs had).
I only have part of the audiobook of the Apokalypse war, so checking and quantifying this is all but impossible for me . Does anyone have access to scans of it?
Photography Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
My only interaction with the Dreddverse is the live-action movie; everything I saw there would indicate that most people in the Dreddverse would wake up one day to go to work and do a double-take upon seeing stormtroopers directing traffic.
At what time take place the V.C.s and the other 2000AD stories like strontium dog compare to dreddverse?
the V.C.s seems to imply FTL other nifty stuff.
Death, what you're looking for is the Complete Case Files vol 5, ISBN 1-905437-08-0, a modern reprint of the classic stories- they've got as far as the first nine years of Dredd's career, one volume per year, and these collected files are available now.
As you might be able to tell, I have them.
There is no necessary connection between one story that appeared in 2000 AD and another; there are occasions, Durham Red showing up as one of the strontium dogs for instance, where there are explicit connections, but it's very difficult to reconcile the continuity of MegaCity One with that of Invasion, with that of the Volgan War and the ABCs, witg Bad Company, with the Strontium Dogs- and the biggest single headbender is how the drokk the universe is supposed to progress from the ruined planet with no functioning colonies of 'The Mek-nificent Seven' to the galaxy-spanning Ter-might Empire in too short a time for character development. It's canon, but it's much less explicable than any of the crossovers.
So, really, there is no 2000-ADverse. There are ocasional crossovers, but only those explicitly mentioned. There was an 'ABC Warrior' in the Dredd movie, but that's easily explained as a descendant or relic of the war droids used in 2070 by the last President of the United States.
Sure as shit there are psychic phenomena capable of drawing Palpatine's attention; there are numerous psionic criminals, for a start. Telepathic intimidation, derangements, straightforward black magic- there is definitely psi crime, and a branch of the Judges trained to deal with it.
I have no idea about Psi Division's numbers, but simply from the loss rate of judges killed in the line of duty, we can make an estimate of the total strength of Justice Department.
To the nearest round number, about ten Judges a night get killed in the Big Meg. Three thousand six hundred and fifty a year.
Assume one in five survives long enough to take the Long Walk, after twenty-five years of service. A hundred and ten thousand judges, total. If anybody has better numbers, please use them instead because that was just a wild ass guess.
Psi Division are clearly numerous- even at a proportion of one in fifty, that's still just under a quarter of the strength of the entire Jedi Order, on one planet alone. All of them are trained investigators, and worse yet, actively inquisitive. That is probably the trigger. No way Palpatine wants people like that wandering around the Empire.
What kind of a fight can the defenders put up? Well, one thing, CitiDef is one of the best arguments I've come across in fiction for gun control. In theory, the Judges are backed by armed militia, but the simple fact is they're not very well trained and they're just as stir crazy as the rest of the Big Meg. In virtually every major crisis, especially the block wars preceding the Apocalypse War, the militia were a bigger part of the problem than they were of the solution.
Against a full scale alien invasion, they have lots of firepower, on the ground combat scale, but we're basically talking about people who learned the art of war by watching action movies. They will not be effective, and it's down to the judges.
Strategic weapons, first; battle-sats, a small complement- four?- interstellar spacecraft, some loose ties to alien powers with space craft, no treaties though. Skunks- seabed crawling SSBN-analogues- silos, H-wagons capable of BMD laser fire and missile launch in their own right. Total offensive capability, a four digit number of missiles, each carrying multiple megaton-range independent fully manoeuvring (own engines)RVs. MegaCity One's total deliverable yield is certainly in the gigatons, up maybe as high as half a teraton.
So, basically zero ability to knock down ISD's. Certainly enough to kill dropships, though. And yes, they probably would be willing to detonate warheads on their own territory to take out a concentration of Imperials.
Total Annihilation Devices are comic book technology, ink on a page. No idea how they work, and it was never explained- they were just awesomely humungous. The Apocalypse Warp did not withstand their explosion; instead, it schrodingered them- shuffled them sideways to a parallel universe where they could detonate in safety. Well, safety for East Meg One, anyway. The parallel earth got it in the shorts.
In fact, looking at the illustration- twenty-five hits- it's definitely bio, and maybe geocide. The planet is cracked down the middle- classic ink is cheaper than physics expertise comic image- but at the very least, the fireballs and mushroom clouds are about the same distance across as the top end of the Arabian peninsula.
They probably are a threat to even an Imperator- class destroyer, but how well they penetrate point defence and ECM- whether they can catch a destroyer taking evasive action- I doubt. The Empire would have to be very complacent to actually get hit by them, but those hits would hurt. Eliminating them would have to be the Imperials' first priority.
Once MegaCity One's strategic defences get rolled back and the Empire is able to mount a full invasion, it' still going to be bloody. Nothing beyond the Empire's capability, but the judges are going to put up a fight, there's a lot of terrain inhabited by a lot of heavily armed lunatics- the populace- and infested witha hundred thousand expert gamekeepers turned poachers, I wouldn't want to commit less than an Army Group. Coupd probably be done with a single Army, sixteen divisions, but the losses to ambush and guerilla warfare would be staggering. Better to hit them hard and fast.
This would be before Judge Dredd and Psi-Judge Anderson put paid to the Dark Judges, too-- in a doomsday scenario, they might call the Dark Judges through and set them loose.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Why not just drown out the Dredd verse people with battle droids, like the SD series and the Dwarf spider droids?
It'd be more useful to save the stormtroopers and Army troopers for the occupation.
Turns out that a five way cross over between It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the Ali G Show, Fargo, Idiocracy and Veep is a lot less funny when you're actually living in it.
So some dumbfuck is going to present some numbers or are we going to have another locked because this is arbitray wanking to whichever side said person likes the most.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Pelranius wrote:Why not just drown out the Dredd verse people with battle droids, like the SD series and the Dwarf spider droids?
It'd be more useful to save the stormtroopers and Army troopers for the occupation.
There was a Dredd story calle Mechanismo involving an iniative to phase out human Judges in favor of heavily armed robots capable of doing the job better. I can't remember wh it failed, something to do with them being hacked, I think, but later stories (Specifically Incubus, the Aliens crossover) have shown that most of the Mechanismo units have just been kept in storage. If they were under attack by a large army of battle droids I wouldn't be surprised if the Justice Department dusted them off and responded in kind.
Ghost Rider wrote:So some dumbfuck is going to present some numbers or are we going to have another locked because this is arbitray wanking to whichever side said person likes the most.
I think the "assessing resources" part is still underway.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
There's no way any of those missiles will make it onto target without either tactical or close-range engagement or without really awesome maneuvering performance; SW PD is optimized against up to 5000 G starfighters, and missiles can move at 10,000 G. Both may be shielded. I don't think losses will be considerable, and whats to stop them from thinking they have a chance against the spacecrafts and loosing their arsenals on them, promptly wasting them and opening them wide for a ground campaign?
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | LibertarianSocialist |
The Cursed Earth is a shit hole. A civilization with mind-boggling FTL and industrial capacity just showed up. One who's technology could either relocate the entire population of the planet, or could concivably clean up most of the environmental problems for them.
All Darth Vader has to do is send an offer like that to the leadership of the various Mega Cities, with a list of there other technologies that can prove right then and there, and you should expect the vast, vast majority of them to petition to join the Empire.
Have there been any threads earlier to quantify Mega-City weaponry, numbers of Judges and PSIs or the like? I have searched, but not found any.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
Solauren wrote:Who says the Empire even has to resort to force?
The Cursed Earth is a shit hole. A civilization with mind-boggling FTL and industrial capacity just showed up. One who's technology could either relocate the entire population of the planet, or could concivably clean up most of the environmental problems for them.
All Darth Vader has to do is send an offer like that to the leadership of the various Mega Cities, with a list of there other technologies that can prove right then and there, and you should expect the vast, vast majority of them to petition to join the Empire.
Casualties: Minimal.
Like what Vader did with the Noghri? I like your plan, but Vader better have a plan within a plan, just in case the Cursed Earthers try to do to him what Rukh did to Thrawn.
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
Wow. You guys are talking about JUDGES. They would probably kill their own citizens just so they could join the Empire. Hell, Palpatine would probably think Judges are a great idea and establish an Imperial Judges Corps.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it. Blank Yellow (NSFW)
havokeff wrote:Wow. You guys are talking about JUDGES. They would probably kill their own citizens just so they could join the Empire. Hell, Palpatine would probably think Judges are a great idea and establish an Imperial Judges Corps. :lol:
Except that the Judges would probably try to Judge him.
And how will the Empire deal with the issues involved with Psi-Judges and the heavy mysticism that exists in the 2000AD universe?
havokeff wrote:Wow. You guys are talking about JUDGES. They would probably kill their own citizens just so they could join the Empire. Hell, Palpatine would probably think Judges are a great idea and establish an Imperial Judges Corps.
Why? I confess I am not the greatest of experts with this particular universe, but to me they have always appeared very nationalist and very hard to corrupt.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
If it comes to a ground war it could get very bloody as every City Bloc has it's own defence force with access to military grade weapons. At least in Mega-City 1 there is, not too sure about the others.
Though I'm guessing the Empire has domination in space, I can't think of any time we've seen a big space battle in Judge Dredd.
Sov Bloc 1's Apocalypse Warp may be some defence (teleports incoming missles to another dimension), but given it's massive power requirement (they had to black out most of the city) they wont be able to run it long enough. Deployment speed (linked to power requirements) is also a problem (they couldn't get it up in time to stop missles coming from their own country).
Regarding some of the other mega-cities:
Mega City 2 and Tex City were cowed by Sov-Bloc 1's attack on Mega CIty 1 so if the Empire can do simular then there's a good chance they'll try to avoid conflict too.
'Banana City' will probably try and join the Empires side if they make a good show of power.
Sov-Bloc 1 would probably try to oppose the Empire especially if Kazan gets in charge.
If the Empire does have space domination then their best bet would be to wipe out Mega City 1 and Sov Bloc 1 from orbit as a show of power to try and force the others into submission.
Ph34r teh eyebrow!!11!Writers GuildSluggitePawn of ChaosWYGIWYGAINGW so now i have to put ACPATHNTDWATGODW in my sigEBC-Honorary Geordie Hammerman! Hammer!
Orbital bombardment is arbitrarily ruled out of the scenario by Palpatinian edict.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
Darth Hoth wrote:Orbital bombardment is arbitrarily ruled out of the scenario by Palpatinian edict.
Then taking Mega City 1 is going to be very bloody. The Apocalypse War showed how far they'll go to resist foriegn occupation (all the way) and Block Mania just before that highlighted how easy it was for vast numbers to arm and mobilise themselves quickly. Every bloc is going to become a fortress.
If orbital bombardment is out then next best thing would be to capture an easier target and use their weapons to nuke MC1 totally.
Ph34r teh eyebrow!!11!Writers GuildSluggitePawn of ChaosWYGIWYGAINGW so now i have to put ACPATHNTDWATGODW in my sigEBC-Honorary Geordie Hammerman! Hammer!
Did you even read the original post? All weapons of mass destruction are out for the Empire side. Palpatine thinks that there is something in the city that he might want to capture intact. It is by definition a "Stalingrad" battle.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
The Galactic Empire has access to countless lethal but non-destructive weapons in its arsenal. It has access to enhanced radiation devices, high fallout devices, chemical agents, biological agents, and Palpatine may have access to the Sorcerer of Tund's "electromagnetic torpedo." However, it may be possible to shield against it. The "electromagnetic torpedo" of Rokur Gepta contained a presumably Force-conjured substance or warhead capable of obliterating life on planetary scales (it is with this device and its attendant techniques he sterilized Tund itself). As Palpatine kept Rokur Gepta in his clientèle of Force magi for precisely the reason of accessing his unique skill set and knowledge of the Force belonging to his late sect, and that the Dark Empire Sourcebook claims that Palpatine has mastered "all known" powers and abilities, it stands to reason he may be capable of manufacturing and deploying the Sorcerer's life-eradicating weaponry.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | LibertarianSocialist |
Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Galactic Empire has access to countless lethal but non-destructive weapons in its arsenal. It has access to enhanced radiation devices, high fallout devices, chemical agents, biological agents, and Palpatine may have access to the Sorcerer of Tund's "electromagnetic torpedo." However, it may be possible to shield against it. The "electromagnetic torpedo" of Rokur Gepta contained a presumably Force-conjured substance or warhead capable of obliterating life on planetary scales (it is with this device and its attendant techniques he sterilized Tund itself). As Palpatine kept Rokur Gepta in his clientèle of Force magi for precisely the reason of accessing his unique skill set and knowledge of the Force belonging to his late sect, and that the Dark Empire Sourcebook claims that Palpatine has mastered "all known" powers and abilities, it stands to reason he may be capable of manufacturing and deploying the Sorcerer's life-eradicating weaponry.
Assuming that I recall correctly, the Judges have gas defences, and they are reasonably familiar with bio warfare, overall implying that they have access to NBC protection (we see radiation suits in the Apocalypse War comic). How that translates to CitiDef or non-combat civil defence I would not know. Generally, I would assume such weapons would weaken the city, quite considerably perhaps depending on civil defence capabilities, but not be enough to ensure victory in and of themselves. (Any Dredd fans out there who can supplement my rather limited knowledge?)
Are more details available on the uber-torpedo? I gather that it is the planetary-scale equivalent of wankfest sci-fi neutron bombs that vapourise soldiers but leave their tanks intact, is this correct? (I do not own the Lando trilogy, and am loath to trust Wookiee on anything remotely resembling technological matters.) If it is Force-based, can it be protected against by PSIs? Contrariwise, are mundane defences in any way useful against it? Do we ever see it used in the books?
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."
. Does anyone have access to scans of it?
