Anyone have any good refs regarding Alcoholics Anonymous?

[Darth Wong]

I just thought I'd throw up a copy of the infamous AA 12 steps in the Library. If anyone has any additional information about AA, such as their success rates, news stories about them, etc. feel free to add.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=123309

[Themightytom]

Why is it infamous? I work with recovering substance abusers all the time and it is the template for most successful treatment programs.

[Darth Wong]

Why is it infamous? I work with recovering substance abusers all the time and it is the template for most successful treatment programs.

It's infamous because it's a violation of church/state separation to force people to go to AA meetings (which many judges do), and because despite all of the anecdotal "evidence", there are no scientific studies whatsoever confirming AA's claims of superior success compared to other methods.

In fact, just looking around, I found a few studies saying exactly the opposite: despite their misleading advertising, they are not more effective than other methods. They may even be no more effective than doing nothing, since more than half of alcoholics will eventually quit on their own.

http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochr ... frame.html
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

[Themightytom]

It's infamous because it's a violation of church/state separation to force people to go to AA meetings (which many judges do), and because despite all of the anecdotal "evidence", there are no scientific studies whatsoever confirming AA's claims of superior success compared to other methods.

In fact, just looking around, I found a few studies saying exactly the opposite: despite their misleading advertising, they are not more effective than other methods. They may even be no more effective than doing nothing, since more than half of alcoholics will eventually quit on their own.

http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochr ... frame.html
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

I will look for some sources tonight. I manage part of a database that can point me in the right direction but I can't offer it as a reporting tool without a Looooot of red tape. I'm not even sure what my position would be since, while AA is widely used, there is a lot of evidence in my own source that effective recovery while AA is is usually involved, may be attributed to other programs. It is an effective entry point, as AA is a very well known program, but it may be just the first step into recovery and non critical to the process itself.

I'm still not seeing the violation of the seperation of church and state. is it a violation if they don't specify WHICH AA to go to? My city has like fifty of them run by everyone from the baptist churches to the Community College, there is even one at the mental health center I worked at which is not a faith based program (Unless you coun't worshipping medicare).

The dependence on a higher power is more a spiritual function as I understand it than a religious one, I know one of my clients determined that his "higher power" was a door knob, because without a doorknob he could not open a door. He expanded this metaphorically to include triggers to opportunity and he's been sober for eight years now. As you pointed out a lot of binge drinkers or substance abusers do stop independently so maybe he jsut decided it was time to quit but when he used AA he didn't get sucked into a religion.

My feeling is faith, logic, whatever you are into in whatever combination, engagement is the key, if you autopilot your way through life you will be ill equipped to deal with obstacles. AA provides a giant coping strategy to people who are using Alcohol as a coping strategy. maybe thtas a short cut, maybe not, I want to look at more evidence. I'll let you know what I find.

[Knife]

Why is it infamous? I work with recovering substance abusers all the time and it is the template for most successful treatment programs.

Because if you don't believe in god of any sort how the fuck is;

# We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

# Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

# Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

going to help you. You have no power over your life so god will fix ya? Good cure for an atheist. What's even more insulting is it, in some cases, can be replacing one crutch for another.

[Lusankya]

I'm still not seeing the violation of the seperation of church and state. is it a violation if they don't specify WHICH AA to go to? My city has like fifty of them run by everyone from the baptist churches to the Community College, there is even one at the mental health center I worked at which is not a faith based program (Unless you coun't worshipping medicare).

The dependence on a higher power is more a spiritual function as I understand it than a religious one, I know one of my clients determined that his "higher power" was a door knob, because without a doorknob he could not open a door. He expanded this metaphorically to include triggers to opportunity and he's been sober for eight years now. As you pointed out a lot of binge drinkers or substance abusers do stop independently so maybe he jsut decided it was time to quit but when he used AA he didn't get sucked into a religion.

My feeling is faith, logic, whatever you are into in whatever combination, engagement is the key, if you autopilot your way through life you will be ill equipped to deal with obstacles. AA provides a giant coping strategy to people who are using Alcohol as a coping strategy. maybe thtas a short cut, maybe not, I want to look at more evidence. I'll let you know what I find.

You honestly can't see why a program that asks its participants to ask God to remove their shortcomings might be seen as promoting some kind of religion? Even if it promotes no religion over another, it is still non-atheistic. A lack of the mention of god is the only way to make something truly secular.

Not to mention the fact that if the capitalisation in Wong's other thread is correct, then the 12-step program actually does specifically refer to the Christian God? It might not specify God as understood by the Baptists, or God as understood by the Catholics, but God (with capitalised G) still refers to the Christian God.

[Themightytom]

Why is it infamous? I work with recovering substance abusers all the time and it is the template for most successful treatment programs.

Because if you don't believe in god of any sort how the fuck is;

# We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

# Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

# Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

going to help you. You have no power over your life so god will fix ya? Good cure for an atheist. What's even more insulting is it, in some cases, can be replacing one crutch for another.

Its a behavioral coping strategy. The same way a crutch is meant to shift weight off an injured foot while it heals, the coping strategy allows you to realign maladaptive behavior. A rational person can usually see a behavior that causes negative effects and develop a strategy for dealing with it.

"Ow the stove burned my hand. i will not touch the stove again."
An alcaholic however, who may be self medicating for pain, may have a mental illness or may have grown up believing this is how it should be, will have a lot of obstacles impairing the rational process. There may be guilt over actions taken while drunk, there may be insecurity, self doubt anxiety etc.

if you acknowledge a higher power, you can shift the blame, the responsibility, find comfort for your anxiety etc, while you alter the behavior. thats also why a lot of alcaholics have a false start where they believe they are recovered. They have begun the behavioral adaptation but have not addressed the emotions and interpretations of their actions while they were alcaholic. once they begin that process a lot of people relapse.

I suppose if you were an atheist I suppose you could jut use Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to methodically identify and catalogue behaviors that signal an urge to drink, evaluate the thought processes taking place while those and examine the roots of the schema those thoughts indicate. You still can't do that alone though, it would be like looking at your eye with your eye. Most people do that with a therapist, or with "homework" projects that foster selff analysis. They tend to associate the therapist, as someone who is "knowledgeable" and "Understanding" often more so than themselves. so either god or a therapist, you still need a higher power

[Darth Wong]

Care to explain why an estimated 50%-60% of alcoholics eventually quit by themselves, then? That's a better success rate than has ever been attributed to AA (or any other program, for that matter).

[Knife]

Not to mention the fact that if the capitalisation in Wong's other thread is correct, then the 12-step program actually does specifically refer to the Christian God? It might not specify God as understood by the Baptists, or God as understood by the Catholics, but God (with capitalised G) still refers to the Christian God.

Not to mention that Dr. Bob was a pretty devout zealot, belonging to the Oxford Group which was a radical fundy movement. Mr Bill joined the Oxford group as well and was way into 'change via spirituality'.

[Darth Wong]

This "it should work" argument reminds me of the argument for why Christians would never commit murder. Never mind the fact that it happens every day.

[Themightytom]

You honestly can't see why a program that asks its participants to ask God to remove their shortcomings might be seen as promoting some kind of religion? Even if it promotes no religion over another, it is still non-atheistic. A lack of the mention of god is the only way to make something truly secular.

Not to mention the fact that if the capitalisation in Wong's other thread is correct, then the 12-step program actually does specifically refer to the Christian God? It might not specify God as understood by the Baptists, or God as understood by the Catholics, but God (with capitalised G) still refers to the Christian God.

You're right, my interpretation was with regards to endorsing one aprticular religion or another. To an Atheist all mention of God would have to be removed to be respectful of that person's beliefs, I suspect a comparative study of atheists vs. agnostics vs those with professed spiritual beliefs would show that AA doesn't work at all for atheists.

Except for my client who worships a doorknob, which again lends credibility to the theory that he was just ready to stop and needed a mecahnism.

[Darth Wong]

Except for my client who worships a doorknob, which again lends credibility to the theory that he was just ready to stop and needed a mecahnism.

If one is dealing with a person who worships a doorknob, would you argue that it is a good idea to encourage greater dependence upon this delusion if you think you can use that dependence to break other misbehaviours? That seems to be your argument.

[Mobiboros]

Having seen various people I know in AA and in NA I don't particularly think the "Program" works so much as if you've gotten to the point that you're looking into programs you just need "something" to help you get through the early stages of getting off your addiction, plus provides you with group support and someone who you can call when stressed.

[General Zod]

You're right, my interpretation was with regards to endorsing one aprticular religion or another. To an Atheist all mention of God would have to be removed to be respectful of that person's beliefs, I suspect a comparative study of atheists vs. agnostics vs those with professed spiritual beliefs would show that AA doesn't work at all for atheists.

Except for my client who worships a doorknob, which again lends credibility to the theory that he was just ready to stop and needed a mecahnism.

What happens when that mechanism fails down the road or he stops believing in it? He goes back to drinking? This sounds like a half-assed method of slapping a bandage on a sucking chest wound than any real solution.

[Themightytom]

Except for my client who worships a doorknob, which again lends credibility to the theory that he was just ready to stop and needed a mecahnism.

If one is dealing with a person who worships a doorknob, would you argue that it is a good idea to encourage greater dependence upon this delusion if you think you can use that dependence to break other misbehaviours? That seems to be your argument.

The doorknob was his metaphor for opportunity. I thought it was bizarre at first and after careful consideration I still do. However the recognition of acknowledging that he was not in full control of his behavior was a valid one.

[Knife]

Its a behavioral coping strategy.

Sweet, a behavior strategy that leans heavily on religion and/or spirituality.

The same way a crutch is meant to shift weight off an injured foot while it heals, the coping strategy allows you to realign maladaptive behavior. A rational person can usually see a behavior that causes negative effects and develop a strategy for dealing with it.

So how is your crutch better or worse than the original problem? What makes it superior than actual psychological therapy? You don't replace an imaginary crutch with another imaginary crutch, you replace it with a slightly smaller and slightly more real crutch and keep going until the crutch is real and about to be too small to matter.

"Ow the stove burned my hand. i will not touch the stove again."
An alcaholic however, who may be self medicating for pain, may have a mental illness or may have grown up believing this is how it should be, will have a lot of obstacles impairing the rational process. There may be guilt over actions taken while drunk, there may be insecurity, self doubt anxiety etc.

Yes, yes. I've taken Psyc 1010 and know all about association and their disorders. The point being; how is AA or more specifically, praying to god to cure your, any better behavior modification than actual medical help? Especially for secular people?

if you acknowledge a higher power, you can shift the blame, the responsibility, find comfort for your anxiety etc,

Erm....that sounds like a horrible way to deal with both anxiety and dissociative disorders. Most therapies get you more and more comfortable with phobias and other objects of anxiety by introducing more control for the victim, not taking it away.

while you alter the behavior. thats also why a lot of alcaholics have a false start where they believe they are recovered. They have begun the behavioral adaptation but have not addressed the emotions and interpretations of their actions while they were alcaholic. once they begin that process a lot of people relapse.

Or perhaps because AA gives them false hope and false esteem, with nothing for them to fall back from when they relapse? 'I gave myself to god and the fucker still let me drink eight fingers of scotch last night, I'm screwed.'

I suppose if you were an atheist I suppose you could jut use Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to methodically identify and catalogue behaviors that signal an urge to drink, evaluate the thought processes taking place while those and examine the roots of the schema those thoughts indicate. You still can't do that alone though, it would be like looking at your eye with your eye. Most people do that with a therapist, or with "homework" projects that foster selff analysis. They tend to associate the therapist, as someone who is "knowledgeable" and "Understanding" often more so than themselves. so either god or a therapist, you still need a higher power

Why would professional mental help NOT be better for everyone, rather than a phuedo-religious organization?

[Darth Wong]

Except for my client who worships a doorknob, which again lends credibility to the theory that he was just ready to stop and needed a mecahnism.

If one is dealing with a person who worships a doorknob, would you argue that it is a good idea to encourage greater dependence upon this delusion if you think you can use that dependence to break other misbehaviours? That seems to be your argument.

The doorknob was his metaphor for opportunity. I thought it was bizarre at first and after careful consideration I still do. However the recognition of acknowledging that he was not in full control of his behavior was a valid one.

No, it's a FALSE recognition. He IS in full control of his behaviour. There is no magic man in the sky or in the doorknob who is controlling his behaviour. That kind of self-delusion is dangerous, and there is no scientific evidence to support your assertion that it is any more effective in changing peoples' behaviour.

Your argument is that if you can convince people that their own behaviour is actually being controlled by someone else, then they will have a better chance of changing their own behaviour. I don't see how that logically follows at all, and since you aren't presenting any EVIDENCE to support this assertion, it looks to me like all you're doing is rhythmically repeating an unsupported claim.

[Themightytom]

You're right, my interpretation was with regards to endorsing one aprticular religion or another. To an Atheist all mention of God would have to be removed to be respectful of that person's beliefs, I suspect a comparative study of atheists vs. agnostics vs those with professed spiritual beliefs would show that AA doesn't work at all for atheists.

Except for my client who worships a doorknob, which again lends credibility to the theory that he was just ready to stop and needed a mecahnism.

What happens when that mechanism fails down the road or he stops believing in it? He goes back to drinking? This sounds like a half-assed method of slapping a bandage on a sucking chest wound than any real solution.

Actually yes if the mechanism is all thats preventing him from drinking, its a temporary coping strategy taht isn't a substitute for a systamatic change in lifestyle.
He used the doorknob as the crutch that promoted recovery, it wasn't the manner of recovery in and of itself. That is why I pointed out earlier that while AA seems like an entry point, other factors seem involved in promoting true recovery.. When he started our program he was homeless and jobless and hadn't completed high school and he got that way because his dad beat his mom and him so he ran away.

NOW he has a family, and a bachelor in library sciences as well as a job at the library. he has a completely different social group and a lot more supports in his life. I doubt he will relapse, and if he does there are plenty of people to identify if as it happens and provide supports. he really moved on with his life, he's only working with me because he wants help writing a resume.

[Knife]

Actually yes if the mechanism is all thats preventing him from drinking, its a temporary coping strategy taht isn't a substitute for a systamatic change in lifestyle.

So AA is a bandaide? So why shouldn't people seek actual medical assistance instead of wasting so much time with a bandade?

[General Zod]

Actually yes if the mechanism is all thats preventing him from drinking, its a temporary coping strategy taht isn't a substitute for a systamatic change in lifestyle.

He used the doorknob as the crutch that promoted recovery, it wasn't the manner of recovery in and of itself. That is why I pointed out earlier that while AA seems like an entry point, other factors seem involved in promoting true recovery.. When he started our program he was homeless and jobless and hadn't completed high school and he got that way because his dad beat his mom and him so he ran away.

So where's the evidence that shows this method is superior to legitimate therapy? One anecdotal claim is utterly worthless.

NOW he has a family, and a bachelor in library sciences as well as a job at the library. he has a completely different social group and a lot more supports in his life. I doubt he will relapse, and if he does there are plenty of people to identify if as it happens and provide supports. he really moved on with his life, he's only working with me because he wants help writing a resume.

So you replace one crutch for another, whooptie-doo.

[Darth Wong]

Individual testimonials are found in Amway meetings rather than scientific papers for a good reason.

[Darth Lucifer]

Alcoholics Anonymous and the Counseling profession: Philosophies in Conflict

The best article I've ever read on AA. Definitely worth reading. The authors even go so far as to reword the 12 steps. One of my favorite excerpts on step 12:

In this last part of the program, AA members state that they have had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, that they will carry the message to all addicts, and will practice the principles in all their affairs. It is interesting that in this last step AA chooses the term spiritual awakening. With AA's emphasis on greater powers, immorality, and the carrying out of God's will, it would seem that the steps are more inclined to lead a person to a religious conversion than to a spiritual awakening.

**Either way, gains that have been made through working the program are not attributed to the individual, but to the steps. Any pride that the person might have developed is removed and credit is given to AA and to God. Instructing members to carry the message and practice the principles reminds one more of missionary work than sound counseling or guidance. Members are not encouraged to help others control their drinking, but to present the AA message as the solution for all.

**-emphasis mine, DL

[Themightytom]

Ok there are a lot of people replying to my posts and while I appreciate the attention i really should ahve held my comments until i was in a position to provide what was ACTUALLY asked for, whicch was evidence and articles. Darth Lucifer started that ball rolling so I'm writing this post and then waiting until I have access to reliable sources.

Individual testimonials are found in Amway meetings rather than scientific papers for a good reason.

Mr. Doorknob is my case study, I am not personally endorsing AA so this is not a testimonial.

If one is dealing with a person who worships a doorknob, would you argue that it is a good idea to encourage greater dependence upon this delusion if you think you can use that dependence to break other misbehaviours? That seems to be your argument.

The doorknob was his metaphor for opportunity. I thought it was bizarre at first and after careful consideration I still do. However the recognition of acknowledging that he was not in full control of his behavior was a valid one.

No, it's a FALSE recognition. He IS in full control of his behaviour. There is no magic man in the sky or in the doorknob who is controlling his behaviour. That kind of self-delusion is dangerous, and there is no scientific evidence to support your assertion that it is any more effective in changing peoples' behaviour.

Your argument is that if you can convince people that their own behaviour is actually being controlled by someone else, then they will have a better chance of changing their own behaviour. I don't see how that logically follows at all, and since you aren't presenting any EVIDENCE to support this assertion, it looks to me like all you're doing is rhythmically repeating an unsupported claim.

That isn't my argument, I am arguing that encouraging the belief that a person with a substance abuse problem is not in full control of their life is a neccesary step in their recovery. it provides the impetus to assert self control, engage in therapy and be an active participant ones life. that is what I am proposing but it is NOT what AA proposes. I see value in the program for some people but as a model it isn't half bad either, it just needs adaptation to fit individual need. An application of evidence based practice to this model could be really effective.

So where's the evidence that shows this method is superior to legitimate therapy? One anecdotal claim is utterly worthless.

So you replace one crutch for another, whooptie-doo.

I didn't present it as superior, since I don't consider it an illegitimate therapy. Its a group counseling model with a contractual statement of purpose.

one crutch for another?? he doesn't meet the criteria for alcohol dependence whereas before he did. That looks like recovery to me, its the best result you can hope for with substance abuse

So AA is a bandaide? So why shouldn't people seek actual medical assistance instead of wasting so much time with a bandade?

WHY WOULD YOU NOT USE A BANDAID?? You are stating that it was inadequate as a final solution and I agree, because coping strategies are temporary fixes that enable a person to cunftion while dealing with a mental illness.

Are YOU saying that if you slashed your arm, you would run straight to the hospital and not bandage the arm before leaving? its a temporary fix, you should still seek more thorough treatment but obviously you wouldn't take NO action until treatment could be found.

Sweet, a behavior strategy that leans heavily on religion and/or spirituality.

You don't consider Religion a behavior strategy?

So how is your crutch better or worse than the original problem? What makes it superior than actual psychological therapy? You don't replace an imaginary crutch with another imaginary crutch, you replace it with a slightly smaller and slightly more real crutch and keep going until the crutch is real and about to be too small to matter.

AA is group therapy session, and AA can be the first crutch in the chain of crutches you propose.

Yes, yes. I've taken Psyc 1010 and know all about association and their disorders. The point being; how is AA or more specifically, praying to god to cure your, any better behavior modification than actual medical help? Especially for secular people?.

Well I wasn't really talking about associative disordersi was just talking about obstacles to a rational thought process. AA can play on a persons existing schemas to help assert a worldview that allows them to surrender control. A positive mindset promotes healing ESPECIALLY froma mental illness. A mindset would be more positive if a person were able to believe "I am sufffering but God has a plan for me" as opposed to the more cynical

'I gave myself to god and the fucker still let me drink eight fingers of scotch last night, I'm screwed.'

An alcoholic would probably just assume he didn't REALLY give himselff over to God enough and he needs to be even MORE committed to the progrram.

Most therapies get you more and more comfortable with phobias and other objects of anxiety by introducing more control for the victim, not taking it away.

Knife I already conceded to lusankya that AA as described here would not be effective for most atheists. A non-atheist who has a belief in God, has that belief affirmed and can access the structure associated with worship. going to church regularly, praying, singing testifying, participating in dsicussion groups attending social activities, its a gift wrapped lifestyle that is handed to you in a very structured environment. with clearly presented rules roles and mores. It alleviates the sense of anomie that quitting drinking creates, because up until that point the person was pretty much worshipping the bottle, setting regular times to drink associating with people who also regualrly drink etc.

Or perhaps because AA gives them false hope and false esteem, with nothing for them to fall back from when they relapse?

nope because AA treats Alcohol Dependence as a lifelong illness you can never fully recover from. it is good that it promotes recognition of alcohol dependence as an illness as opposed to the work of the Divvil but I am not arguing it is a good permamnent solution. They DO have something to fall back on, MORE AA meetings. Thats where AA falls apart as a coping strategy because either the person used it as a launching platform towards more supportive servicces or they barely needed it in the first place.

Why would professional mental help NOT be better for everyone, rather than a phuedo-religious organization?

Because not everyone has the same cultural programming.

The best article I've ever read on AA. Definitely worth reading. The authors even go so far as to reword the 12 steps.

Thats the kind of article I was hoping to find, I am sure there are more of them.

MY Favorite parts are:

The majority of professional substance abuse programs in the United States use the 12 steps, either by making them the foundation of their treatment plan or by introducing them to clients as a means of recovery (Bradley, 1988). The use of AA philosophy by professional substance abuse programs is usually perceived as being beneficial to clients (Hulbert, 1992; Irwin & Stoner, 1991; Miller & Mahler, 1991). The benefits of AA are especially emphasized to AA newcomers who are told that sobriety can be achieved if they will "just work the program" and are assured that "there is no reason in the world why it should not work for you" (AAWS, 1984, p. 19).

"Research is less clear as to whether working the AA program is helpful in achieving sobriety. Outcome studies have attempted to assess AA's effectiveness by investigating the relationship between AA attendance and length of abstinence. Several studies have found that AA members report greater abstinence than nonmembers (Cross, Morgan, Mooney, Martin, & Rafter, 1990; Hoffman, Harrison, & Belille, 1983; Thurstin, Alfano, & Nerviano, 1987), and that the longer the membership in AA the greater the length of sobriety (McBride, 1991). Unfortunately, these studies are methodologically flawed due to the voluntary nature of AA membership. With the only criterion for membership being "a desire to stop drinking" (AAWS, 1984, p. 2), it is likely that those attending AA recognize their drinking problem and are motivated to change. Because of this self- selection it becomes impossible to know whether it is AA efficacy or member motivation that is being measured (Bebbington, 1976). Additional problems involved in the scientific research of AA include member anonymity, lack of control groups, and the confounding effects of other treatment programs. These difficulties have led researchers to conclude that the effectiveness of AA has yet to be proven (Bebbington, 1976; Bufe, 1991; Glaser & Ogbome, 1982; Vaillant, 1983) and that the study of AA may need "unprecedented standards of measurement not appropriate to other treatment programs" (Leach, 1973, p. 277). "

I also appreciated that the article didn't advocate for changing AA, but rather encouraged therapists and counselors to be more deliberate in referring cclients to it. They could make exactly the same assumption that I did, that the recognition of a higher power would not be a major stumbling block for an atheist so long as it was not in reference to a specific organized religion.

[Themightytom]

yup tried for a little too much with those quotes, sorry everyone.

[General Zod]

WHY WOULD YOU NOT USE A BANDAID?? You are stating that it was inadequate as a final solution and I agree, because coping strategies are temporary fixes that enable a person to cunftion while dealing with a mental illness.

You're missing the point. A bandaid is a ridiculous solution for any type of serious injury. It's a temporary stop-gap at best and too many people try and treat AA as a complete solution in and of itself.

Well I wasn't really talking about associative disordersi was just talking about obstacles to a rational thought process. AA can play on a persons existing schemas to help assert a worldview that allows them to surrender control. A positive mindset promotes healing ESPECIALLY froma mental illness. A mindset would be more positive if a person were able to believe "I am sufffering but God has a plan for me" as opposed to the more cynical

'I gave myself to god and the fucker still let me drink eight fingers of scotch last night, I'm screwed.'

An alcoholic would probably just assume he didn't REALLY give himselff over to God enough and he needs to be even MORE committed to the progrram.

If you're trying to promote a rational thought process, religion is the worst possible way to go about it.

nope because AA treats Alcohol Dependence as a lifelong illness you can never fully recover from. it is good that it promotes recognition of alcohol dependence as an illness as opposed to the work of the Divvil but I am not arguing it is a good permamnent solution. They DO have something to fall back on, MORE AA meetings. Thats where AA falls apart as a coping strategy because either the person used it as a launching platform towards more supportive servicces or they barely needed it in the first place.

Perhaps this consistent repetition that alcohol dependency can never be fully recovered from is why so many people relapse? It reinforces the thought that they don't actually have any control over what they do.

Because not everyone has the same cultural programming.

Are you trying to argue that psychiatrists aren't capable of adapting? Don't be absurd.

I also appreciated that the article didn't advocate for changing AA, but rather encouraged therapists and counselors to be more deliberate in referring cclients to it. They could make exactly the same assumption that I did, that the recognition of a higher power would not be a major stumbling block for an atheist so long as it was not in reference to a specific organized religion.

Are you even aware of what an atheist actually is? Why the fuck should an atheist be forced to recognize any imaginary sky pixie when his problems are firmly based in reality?