Ever hear of this one? Body Integrity Identity Disorder

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Ever hear of this one? Body Integrity Identity Disorder

Post by Superman »

Today in class, someone brought up an article that was recently published in the lastest Newsweek.
"Josh" says he was fully prepared when he amputated his left hand with a power tool. He says he had tried to cut it off before—once putting it underneath a truck and trying to crush it (the jack didn't collapse right); once attempting to saw it off with a table saw (he lost his nerve). He even spent countless miles driving around with his hand dangling out the window, hoping to get side-swiped. But this time he was determined to succeed. Josh, who insisted on anonymity because his family thinks he lost his hand in an accident, says he practiced on animal legs he got from a butcher, and he was equipped with bandages to stop the bleeding and a charged cell phone in case he got dizzy. Now, years later, Josh says he feels wonderful without his hand, that his amputation finally ended a "torment" that had plagued him since middle school. "It is a tremendous relief," he told NEWSWEEK. "I feel like my body is right."

Surprising as it may seem, Josh is not alone. He has what some scientists are calling Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID), an exceedingly rare condition characterized by an overwhelming desire to amputate one or more healthy limbs or become paraplegic. The desire to be disabled seems so bizarre and contrary to basic human instincts that those who suffer from BIID have largely kept their compulsion a secret. But online communities of those with BIID have formed over the last decade, galvanizing a small movement to bring the disorder into the open.

They may soon be getting some support from the scientific community. BIID is attracting the attention of researchers who suspect that the condition may be related to other body image disorders—including anorexia, body dysmorphic disorder, and gender identity disorder—that at first glance may seem entirely psychological, but may be linked to physical differences in the brain. "In studying the hinterland between neurology and psychology, we can tell not just about people with conditions themselves, but how all our brains work," says Paul McGeoch, a neurologist at the University of San Diego who is currently doing brain scans on people with BIID. McGeoch's research may help answer the fundamental question: is BIID a mental illness or a hard-wired identity?

Those who congregate on the dozens of Web sites for people who identify themselves as having BIID say that safe and legal surgery, or a medically supervised way to become a paraplegic, is the only solution for their problem. (While researchers have interviewed dozens of BIID patients, there are no estimates of how many people are afflicted. However, transabled.org claims 1,500 visitors per day, while a Yahoo Web group of BIID suffers who say they are resisting the urge to amputate has 1,700 members.) They are most often white middle-aged males who refute the idea that the disorder can be treated like a mental illness with talk therapy and medication. They describe a persistent, torturous chasm between their mind's image of their own body, and the physical body they inhabit. They say their urge to "right" themselves is overwhelming. Controversially, some people who say they suffer from BIID draw parallels to the transgender community. They point out that it took years for people who felt they were born into the wrong gender to convince the medical and psychiatric professions to recognize their plight, and that transgender individuals are now protected by anti-discrimination laws in many cities and states.

"Nothing touches it, other than surgery," says Sean O'Connor, who runs the Web sites transabled.org and biid-info.org. "Psychotherapy doesn't work. Psychiatry doesn't work. Medication doesn't work. I'm a pretty typical example of someone who's attempted a [number] of ways to address the problem, done years of therapy of many types, including cognitive-behavioral therapy, and nothing helps." O'Connor says he identifies as someone with BIID, and uses a wheelchair, but has not taken the final step of finding a way to paralyze his legs.

While the idea of deliberately becoming disabled could seem offensive to disabled advocacy groups, the ones NEWSWEEK contacted were reluctant to pass judgment. "Certainly, there are some who would be repulsed by the idea that someone would intentionally disable themselves," says Nancy Starnes, senior vice president at the National Organization on Disability, noting that according to the Americans With Disabilities Act, anyone who appears to have a disability is protected. "But I think they would be treated the same way anybody with a mental health problem would be treated."

Dr. Michael First, a professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University in New York, has been trying to gain insight into the disorder and the question of how to treat it. In 2004, he conducted a study of 52 people who identified as amputee-wannabes. He found that they were far from psychotic. "You almost have to see it to believe it," First says. "These people say, 'Every minute of my life I feel like something is wrong.' But it doesn't impair their ability to relate to other people. They are completely in touch with reality."

First is campaigning for the disorder's inclusion in the next Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), the Bible of the psychiatric field, slated for publication in 2012. For sufferers, inclusion in the DSM would legitimize what they believe is a genuine identity trait. "The largest goal is to figure out the treatment for the people who have it," First says. He thinks that inclusion in the DSM could help pave the way. "Clearly, surgery has helped some people more than anything else. That's a fact."

As it currently stands, BIID sufferers have little option for treatment, and many of them take extreme and dangerous measures to amputate or paralyze themselves. One patient featured in Melody Gilbert's 2004 documentary "Whole," froze his leg off with dry ice. Another blew one off with a shotgun. In one case, a man traveled to Mexico and paid $10,000 for an illegal amputation, only to die of gangrene.

Perverse and gory stories like that have become fodder for television dramas including CSI and Grey's Anatomy. And a new independent feature film starring Nick Stahl, "Quid Pro Quo," tells the story of a paraplegic journalist who becomes involved with a shadowy world of disability "wannabes," who gather in a dim Manhattan basement in their wheelchairs and help each other track down people and methods to paralyze themselves. At the start of the film, set for June 13 release, Stahl's character gets a tip that a man has gone into a New York City hospital and offered a doctor $250,000 to amputate his leg.

In reality, there's only been one widely publicized case of a doctor performing amputations on healthy patients in modern times: Dr. Robert C. Smith, a surgeon at Scotland's Falkirk and District Royal Infirmary, who in January 2000, made headlines in the U.K. tabloids when it was revealed that he had amputated the legs of two patients with BIID. Dr. Smith argued that by preventing his patients from pursuing more life-threatening alternatives, he was following the Hippocratic oath to do no harm. But Dr. Smith's hospital disagreed. He was prevented from doing any further surgeries. (Other doctors in history have faced this same dilemma. In 1785, a man in France held a gun to the head of a surgeon, forcing him to amputate his leg, and later sending a thank-you note. "You have made me the happiest of all men by taking away from me a limb," he wrote.)

Surgeons who perform voluntary amputations today are understandably underground. Alex, a 60-year-old BIID sufferer, learned about a surgeon willing to amputate his leg five years ago and "jumped right on it," flying to Asia and paying $10,000 to have the limb removed. "The only regret I have is that I wasn't able to do it 30 years ago," Alex says. He calls himself "completed," and now works as a gatekeeper to the surgeon, who will not go public, operating a sort of ad hoc screening process, interviewing prospective amputees, and making sure they get psychological evaluations and complete physicals prior to the surgery. Alex, who also did not want his real name used, has even accompanied some patients to Asia; he would not reveal the exact location.

"There isn't a single one of us that enjoys having this," Alex says. "We're all trying to figure out how we got it and how to get rid of it. It's a mental torture. And the only way to get rid of it is by getting the surgery. Unfortunately, there's too many people that take it into their own hands and end up dying."

In his study, Dr. First saw some immediate parallels between BIID and gender identity disorder (GID) in which people feel that the gender they were physically born with is not their true gender. "[BIID] is not just about enhancing your appearance," he says. "This is much deeper. This is a sense of your core identity." Although many members of the transsexual community take issue with GID's inclusion in the DSM and its characterization as a mental illness, there is no question that gender reassignment surgery has become more acceptable in the last few decades, which has also paved the way for more funding and research into the disorder. (Advocacy groups for the transgendered contacted by NEWSWEEK were reluctant to comment without knowing about BIID.)

Neurologists at the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, San Diego, who have studied phantom limb syndrome (in which accidental amputees still feel pain in their lost limb), stroke victims, and GID have recently turned their attention to BIID. They've only been able to conduct three brain scans on those with BIID, so far, but in those, they have found some variation in the right parietal lobe, the area of the brain responsible for creating a "map" or the image of where one's body exists in space. "What's suggested from this is that because of this dysfunction in the right parietal lobe, this sense of unified body image isn't formed," says McGeoch. "The senses don't coalesce. So, for a leg, for example, they can feel that it's there but it doesn't feel like it should be there. It feels surplus. Something's gone wrong."

But some doctors are reluctant to chalk up the disorder to a hard-wired trait. Dr. Ray Blanchard, a professor at the University of Toronto and a member of the DSM work group (which decides which disorders are included in the manual), says that if amputee-identification really stemmed from the brain, there would be other symptoms beyond just the desire to amputate—it would be difficult to use the leg, for example, or there would be signs of neglect.

Blanchard thinks it's unlikely that surgery will ever be an option. "I can't see society in general accepting it," he says. "And I can't see medicine accepting it. Medicine is going to see it as conferring a disability on a patient. In that sense it's different from sex-reassignment surgery. Being a man or woman is not a disability." Still, Blanchard admits that some of the first patients with gender identity disorder faced some of the same obstacles. "There were some psychiatrists who saw [sex-reassignment surgery] as colluding with a patient's mental disorder. Instead of curing the patient of a delusion, you were validating it. But once again, all that had to be overcome there was that the patients really were happier as the opposite sex."

Some conservative voices in the medical community feel that the normalization of sex-change surgeries was the start of a slippery slope. "You keep pushing the envelope of impaired people who aren't in touch with reality in some fashion, who develop ideas about their normalcy," says Dr. Mark Schiller, a psychiatrist and past president of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. "Essentially from just claiming that something's the case, people just accept somebody's distorted version of reality and then we get surgeons and others responding to the point of mangling normal bodies."

Of course those who say they suffer from BIID may define normality differently. For now, sufferers are focused on getting official recognition in the DSM, which could open the door for more research funding. While not everyone agrees, an anonymous user called "TS" on transabled.org seemed to sum up a common view: "I don't see mental illness as being a bad thing for BIID to be labeled as, at least for now. ... Even if current BIID sufferers don't reap the rewards of their efforts to get it known, at least they may know they have given BIID people of the future a better chance of a mentally satisfactory life. Living a lie is the worst human punishment."
This is a wild phenomenon. I wonder, though, how the psychiatric establishment should treat this. Should people be allowed to have body parts removed? It seems that some feel that they're somehow "recovered" once they've done it, but I've also read a couple of case studies where the sufferer actually continued to cut off more body parts... even after the initial one was removed.

Holy crap am I glad I don't have this issue...
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Post by Knife »

I would assume it's just a weird variation on a general associative disorder except the body part is the object they fixate on. The problem as I see it, in my very limited experience, would be if they take off the part they're fixated on, they're not necessarily taking care of the associative disorder.

they could very well fixate on something else, whether it's another body part or something else. Also screams a little OCD, in order to stop the Obsessive worrying about their body part, they want to hack it off.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by SilverWingedSeraph »

I actually have a fairly close friend with this disorder, and it's quite upsetting for her. She's tried getting all sorts of things, from psychology to psychiatrists. She's tried looking for any surgeons who would be willing to perform the removal of her arms, and in several instances, she has tried removing them herself, although without success each time.

And the thing is, she knows the consequences. She knows that without her arms, she'll be far less able to take care of herself, and she doesn't care, because she feels like she shouldn't have her arms. She's learnt how to do all sorts of everyday things with her legs and feet instead of her arms, and frequently ties her arms off behind her back for days on end, because it's the closest she can presently get to not having any.

I really wish that someone could find a cure for this, before she seriously injures herself, trying to remove her own arms again. Hell, I wish she could at the least find a surgeon who would remove them for her, because I know without a doubt that if something isn't done soon, she will likely kill herself in the attempt. It's really saddening.
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Post by Broomstick »

I've heard of this before - I really have trouble wrapping my head around such a state of mind.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

I really love how they think they can get away with comparing desiring to be a normal female baseline with mutilation. I guess women are just deformed men, eh? That sickening attitude stretches back to ancient Greece, it appears. I mean, come on, how do they seriously suppose to compare a bizarre amputation fetish to a comprehensive identity wired into one's mental state which is basically positive--in desiring correction--rather than negative, in desiring destruction? These fuckheads who are trying to compare themselves to me are really sickening--because you can somehow compare being a normal woman to chopping your fucking arms off? I know some whiner is going to come in here and try to defend it, but just read that sentence again and realize how blatantly ludicrous it is.

Of course, I blame these sick fucks themselves for actively trying to compare themselves to people who suffer from intersex spectrum conditions.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Oh, it's Ray Blanchard. Just ignore the article--it's a hack job by homophobic bigots trying to discredit my personal rights, and those of everyone like me. His complete lack of professionalism on the subject of people who suffer from GID is extremely renowned, and his association with the bigoted and homophobic Clark Institute in Toronto is well-documented.

There's a fairly systematic refutation of his sickening practices, along with some charming facts about his research associates in the development of his "theories". The man basically has the scientific attitudes toward the queer community of a Nazi. Note that he resigned from the HBIGDA, Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association, in 2003 because of these problems, so it's not like this is just a matter of opinion. His ties to eugenicists and right-wing journalists are well documented on that website, including the infamous "Human Biodiversity Institute" which advocates "Racial Science".
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Post by Superman »

Knife wrote:I would assume it's just a weird variation on a general associative disorder except the body part is the object they fixate on. The problem as I see it, in my very limited experience, would be if they take off the part they're fixated on, they're not necessarily taking care of the associative disorder.
There are a number of competing theories as to the etiology of this disorder. Biological psychiatrists tend to see it as a disease unto itself, having little or nothing to do with other issues like Gender Identity Disorder, or Body Dysmorphic Disorder (at least after the mind has fully developed). Psychoanalytic psychologists and psychiatrists seem to be more apt to agree with your idea; that it's a variation of something like Gender Identity Disorder. Hell, the two models may not be mutually exclusive.
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Post by Superman »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:snip
In all fairness, modern psychiatry does see and recommend gender reassignment surgery, for example, to individuals who may be transsexual; and it's certainly not viewed as a type of mutilation. The theories of the development of these phenomena, though, has appeared to some as maybe being one in the same. I don't believe there's any malice or discrimination intended here.

You might know some things about the author of the article that I don't, however...
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Well, about one of the main sources he used. And anyway, I think it's been proved numerous times on this board that psychology is a pseudoscience, as is Freudian-style "psychiatry". Only biological psychiatry is a reputable science, and as you admit, that comes down on the side of GID being quite distinct.
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Post by Knife »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Well, about one of the main sources he used. And anyway, I think it's been proved numerous times on this board that psychology is a pseudoscience, as is Freudian-style "psychiatry". Only biological psychiatry is a reputable science, and as you admit, that comes down on the side of GID being quite distinct.
I'm hardly a proponent of ushie-gooshie therapy, but 'only biological psyc is a reputable science'? Huh? Social psyc let alone clinical psyc is fairly straight forward, and provably with associative behavior like classical conditioning. Most dissociative disorders I can think of are not explained by biological psycology.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Knife wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Well, about one of the main sources he used. And anyway, I think it's been proved numerous times on this board that psychology is a pseudoscience, as is Freudian-style "psychiatry". Only biological psychiatry is a reputable science, and as you admit, that comes down on the side of GID being quite distinct.
I'm hardly a proponent of ushie-gooshie therapy, but 'only biological psyc is a reputable science'? Huh? Social psyc let alone clinical psyc is fairly straight forward, and provably with associative behavior like classical conditioning. Most dissociative disorders I can think of are not explained by biological psycology.
Damn, Knife, this has been brought up numerous times before. Freudian style clinical psychology simply cannot be defined as a science in any sense of the word, it completely rejects the scientific method. This argument has been dead and buried here for quite some time, and I don't think I need to get into it again.
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Post by Superman »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Well, about one of the main sources he used. And anyway, I think it's been proved numerous times on this board that psychology is a pseudoscience, as is Freudian-style "psychiatry". Only biological psychiatry is a reputable science, and as you admit, that comes down on the side of GID being quite distinct.
Generally speaking, I don't think many call psychiatry a "soft science" these days, and you can't really lump "psychology" under a single catch-all umbrella. Many psychologists, for example, perform research in psychiatric clinics at universities, many oversee psychiatrists in training, etc., so, while they're not physicians, they're certainly not all pseudo scientists. There are even biological psychologists who don't ever veer out of the realm of biology... So yes, some psychologists are indeed pseudo-scientists, but you can hardly apply the label of bullshit to the entire discipline.

Analysts who practice from a psychodynamic model, the one Freud himself founded, are usually fully qualified medical doctors who specialized in a particular form of therapy. It does make use of constructs, like the "id" or "ego," but when these are applied to a model of the mind, they become effective tools in the treatment of mental disorders, and the research has demonstrated this repeatedly.

I agree that there is, generally, way too much bullshit psuedocrap in psychology, but this isn't the discipline as a whole.
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Post by Knife »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Damn, Knife, this has been brought up numerous times before. Freudian style clinical psychology simply cannot be defined as a science in any sense of the word, it completely rejects the scientific method.
Indeed, good thing that most clinical psyc is not in any way descendent from Freud's bullshit. But if all you were saying was bullshit psyc is, well bullshit, I agree with you.
This argument has been dead and buried here for quite some time, and I don't think I need to get into it again.
Whatever.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Fine, here's a link to an old thread.
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Post by Superman »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Fine, here's a link to an old thread.
Thanks. Searching "psychology" brought up a lot to sift through. Got it now. I do agree with most of what you're saying, Dutchess... just not about about dismissing the discipline entirely.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Well, about one of the main sources he used. And anyway, I think it's been proved numerous times on this board that psychology is a pseudoscience, as is Freudian-style "psychiatry". Only biological psychiatry is a reputable science, and as you admit, that comes down on the side of GID being quite distinct.
I have to disagree here, about psychology being a pseudoscience. Certain branches are not. Biological psych being one, evolutionary psych another, social psych, cognitive psych being the last two. These branches produce testable predictions, they use experiment and observation to test these predictions. Not pseudoscience.

You might balk at cognitive psych, but you need a direction for the biological and evolutionary psych. You need to have some idea of the thought processes and indeed macro-level brain processes before you can direct research to figure out proximate mechanisms.

For example: One of the cognitive and evolutionary theories regarding the basis of religion is that we have a sort of "agent detection" mechanism, because assuming that a phenomenon is caused by an intelligent agent has a selective advantage (better to assume that the twig snapping is caused by something out to get you than not) and religion is an outgrowth of this. It is then the job of the neuro-scientists to find the proximate mechanisms. But they would not know what to look for unless they had some idea of ultimate mechanisms.

Cognitive and evolutionary psychologists are to Biological Psychologists what David Sloan Wilson (or Hamilton) is to Bert Hoeldobbler. Wilson and Hamilton are macro-scale evolutionary theorists, Bert Hoeldobbler is an experimentalist.
I'm hardly a proponent of ushie-gooshie therapy, but 'only biological psyc is a reputable science'? Huh? Social psyc let alone clinical psyc is fairly straight forward, and provably with associative behavior like classical conditioning. Most dissociative disorders I can think of are not explained by biological psycology.
Those are in the realm of cognitive and clinical psych.

When most people think of psychology they link the psuedoscientific (though often very useful) therapy schools of methodology in with the research side, which they should not do.

Psychology started out as a pseudoscientific attempt to fix people's problems, but then it branched off into research, which then integrated itself with sociology and biology, and became actual sciences.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

As for the rest of it... We actually have a good idea what the mechanisms are for Gender Identity Disorder. It is not a disassociative disorder. To put it simply, due to genetic and developmental fuck ups, a baseline female brain anatomy is put inside a male body. And because male and female brains process information differently we end up with what is basically a female mind in a male body, and this will, naturally cause a bit of a disconnect.

There is no nice, neat biological mechanism that can get messed up like this for BIID. No failure to differentiate into the right sex's brain.(or in the case of FTM transexuals, no misfired differentiation... but due to the proximate mechanisms this is less common), no developmental process I can think of that would cause this.

It isnt like the brain controls apoptosis and there was a misfire somewhere in development that made the brain want MORE programmed cell death...

This is some other problem. WIth a completely different mechanism. The two are NOT comparable, and this is what happens when Clinical psychologists who like Freud to much get involved.
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Post by Starglider »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I really love how they think they can get away with comparing desiring to be a normal female baseline with mutilation.
They're both a case of the brain configuration being out of sync with the body configuration. Both of these are disorders, in the sense that they are neither normal nor adaptive brain structure. Both are in principle correctable either by altering the body to match the mind or by altering the mind to match the body - though as yet our neurosurgical techniques are still so crude that altering the body is the only practical option.
I guess women are just deformed men, eh? That sickening attitude stretches back to ancient Greece, it appears.
Irrelevant red herring. You might as well say that female->male transexuals want to become deformed women. In fact there was plenty of 'men are women that have been deformed by the defective y chromosone/testosterone poisoning' sentiment around in the 70s, it seems to have retreated a bit recently as radical feminism has been marginalised (no loss there).
I mean, come on, how do they seriously suppose to compare a bizarre amputation fetish
It isn't a fetish. It's a compulsion resulting from self-image/body mismatch. You are making exactly the same mistake that you claim others are making about you, which is rather sad.
to a comprehensive identity wired into one's mental state which is basically positive--in desiring correction
I can't see anything particularly 'positive' about changing gender. I suppose a genuine male->female switch would add childbearing capability, which is a net plus, but that isn't technically possible yet. Really it's a neutral change, which is pretty much the only sensible view if you think men and women are equal to start with anyway.
rather than negative, in desiring destruction?
'Obviously male->female transsexuals are just penis amputation fetishists'

Clearly I don't believe that, but that's where your logic goes (and why it's so contradictory).
These fuckheads who are trying to compare themselves to me are really sickening - because you can somehow compare being a normal woman to chopping your fucking arms off?
Unfortunately, that's currently the only way to remove the distress and depression they're feeling. They've made a quite convincing scientific argument for it being very similar to gender identity disorder, and you have made no arguments against it other than argument from personal incredulity (or rather, distaste). Again, the exact same logic that justifies discrimination against transgender people - in fact your response reminds me of homosexuals who squirm at the notion of including the 'T' in 'LGBT community'.

Given sufficiently advanced medical technology to correct either of these disorders neurologically (which doesn't exist yet but probably will in the near future), we are faced with a different question, 'is this a valid lifestyle choice'. I would of course say that switching genders is a perfectly valid lifestyle choice, and that given the ability to do cheap and complete gender reassignment it's probably a better solution to gender identity disorder than neurological alteration, because it has less impact on someone's personality. That's a personal choice though.

The question of whether deliberately disabling yourself is a valid lifestyle choice is harder. It strikes me as stupid and should certainly make one ineligable for disability benefits, but ultimately people's bodies are their own and if they can afford the costs of this condition, so be it. However in this case the negative consequences are severe enough that I would not accept broken neurology as a valid reason to have the procedure done. In other words, I would insist that people have their brain disorder fixed, and if they still want to be disabled after that, only then should the medical community be prepared to assist.
Of course, I blame these sick fucks themselves for actively trying to compare themselves to people who suffer from intersex spectrum conditions.
You have no understanding of their predicament and apparently no inclination to gain such an understanding. As such I just lost the sympathy I previously had for the discrimination you have suffered from.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

They're both a case of the brain configuration being out of sync with the body configuration.
And that is where the similarities end.

We are definitely talking about n abnormality in brain structure, but not the sort here that is within biological variation on established developmental mechanisms. Gender identity disorder is (probably) caused by a developmental error (if we can call it an error, it could just as easily be at the extreme end of genetic variation of the same type that causes bisexuality and homosexuality) that leads to non-masculinization of a brain with an XY genotype (or masculinization of a brain with an XX genotype)

Do you have a proposed mechanism for this that is of the same type? That has a similar proximate mechanism and evolutionary cause? Is it a trait that probably piggybacks on something adaptive like homosexuality and probably by extension GID?

If not, the two are not really comparable, they just seem that way if one has a superficial understanding of evolutionary psych.

Both of these are disorders, in the sense that they are neither normal nor adaptive brain structure.
I can make the case the GID is the result of a normal brain structure, just the wrong genotype and genitalia to go with it, and that the most parsimonious explanation for it is that it is the result of an adaptive genotype and that its occurrence is the result of a heterozygote advantage. Not much research has gone into the genetics of it, but it has the same proximate mechanisms as homo and bisexuality (just a matter of degree) and as a result probably has similar genetic mechanisms.
Both are in principle correctable either by altering the body to match the mind or by altering the mind to match the body - though as yet our neurosurgical techniques are still so crude that altering the body is the only practical option.
Again, not comparable. Ones maleness or femaleness is part of a large part if their identity. Males and females process information and thus events and stimuli differently. To someone's gender would in effect be killing that person and replacing them with a doppleganger. To fix a compulsion to amputation would not be doing this.
It isn't a fetish. It's a compulsion resulting from self-image/body mismatch.
And the mechanism for this is? Also, compulsive disorders and identity disorders are two different animals, and I would love to see actual peer reviewed research into BIID, and its proximate mechanisms and the cognitive process behind it. A few people, as this article describes, relating anecdotes do not good evidence make.
Really it's a neutral change, which is pretty much the only sensible view if you think men and women are equal to start with anyway.
One can view being born with mis-matching phenotypes as a birth defect, pretty easily. Granted, I think GID is not a disorder, but rather the very predictable result of evolutionary mechanisms, but due to he distress it creates is worth "correction" by matching the phenotypes.
They've made a quite convincing scientific argument for it being very similar to gender identity disorder, and you have made no arguments against it other than argument from personal incredulity (or rather, distaste).
Do you have the peer-reviewed evidence for this convincing scientific argument?

Because I have made a decent evolutionary argument on why the two are not mechanistically similar.

Whether or not this difference changes treatment options, I do not know... but the point stands. Not comparable mechanistically



The question of whether deliberately disabling yourself is a valid lifestyle choice is harder. It strikes me as stupid and should certainly make one ineligable for disability benefits, but ultimately people's bodies are their own and if they can afford the costs of this condition, so be it. However in this case the negative consequences are severe enough that I would not accept broken neurology as a valid reason to have the procedure done. In other words, I would insist that people have their brain disorder fixed, and if they still want to be disabled after that, only then should the medical community be prepared to assist.
THat I can certainly agree with.
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Post by Zixinus »

If someone says there is a god, I am showing this disorder as an example. No other then a sadistic god would allow a disorder (sorry I don't have a MD to know the proper terminology) like this to happen. Seriously, a need to cut your own fucking limbs off despite all rational reason?

It is understandable that the medicine doesn't help. If I read correctly, nobody is quite sure what is causing this.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Starglider wrote:
Unfortunately, that's currently the only way to remove the distress and depression they're feeling. They've made a quite convincing scientific argument for it being very similar to gender identity disorder, and you have made no arguments against it other than argument from personal incredulity (or rather, distaste). Again, the exact same logic that justifies discrimination against transgender people - in fact your response reminds me of homosexuals who squirm at the notion of including the 'T' in 'LGBT community'.

Given sufficiently advanced medical technology to correct either of these disorders neurologically (which doesn't exist yet but probably will in the near future), we are faced with a different question, 'is this a valid lifestyle choice'. I would of course say that switching genders is a perfectly valid lifestyle choice, and that given the ability to do cheap and complete gender reassignment it's probably a better solution to gender identity disorder than neurological alteration, because it has less impact on someone's personality. That's a personal choice though.

The question of whether deliberately disabling yourself is a valid lifestyle choice is harder. It strikes me as stupid and should certainly make one ineligable for disability benefits, but ultimately people's bodies are their own and if they can afford the costs of this condition, so be it. However in this case the negative consequences are severe enough that I would not accept broken neurology as a valid reason to have the procedure done. In other words, I would insist that people have their brain disorder fixed, and if they still want to be disabled after that, only then should the medical community be prepared to assist.
Of course, I blame these sick fucks themselves for actively trying to compare themselves to people who suffer from intersex spectrum conditions.
You have no understanding of their predicament and apparently no inclination to gain such an understanding. As such I just lost the sympathy I previously had for the discrimination you have suffered from.

As Aly pointed out, there's no possible correlation between having a normal brain structure for the incorrect genotype and having a brain structure sufficiently different that it causes you want to destroy your own prospects for survival, more or less. One is a very predictable result of evolutionary mechanisms--the other.. Isn't.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The thing is, it's quite possible for a gender-reassigned person to live a relatively normal, healthy life afterwards, except for being unable to reproduce naturally (which is not that rare even for stock-gender people).

People who cut off limbs or disable themselves, on the other hand, have done serious harm and lost much of their capabilities. In the more extreme cases, they may even make themselves almost useless to society, and become net drains on society and health care systems by requiring all manner of extra support. If one believes that such a disorder is a valid impetus to start cutting off limbs, one must wonder if the same logic could be used to conclude that the best way to treat a suicidal person is to kill him.
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Post by Broomstick »

Keep in mind that for suspected GID we do not move directly to surgery - there is an extended process to make sure that the individual is suffering from GID and not something superficially similar, counseling is required (usually - I am aware there are "cash and no questions asked" surgeons), a trial period living as the opposite gender from that at birth, etc. - in other words, there is some process involved to (ideally) make sure that irreversible surgery is more likely to help than hurt.

I suppose people tying up a limb or confining themselves to using a wheelchair is an echo of this, but I have to wonder about people wandering around on two feet saying "I want a leg off". There is NO mechanism separating out people who might, somehow ( :roll: ) be helped by amputation from people who might be suffering from a superficially similar disorder, who might be delusional, or otherwise will be more harmed than helped (and that's going out on a limb to assume that lopping off limbs would help anyone at all).

There ARE voluntary amputations performed - they are done when a person demonstrates they are better off without a limb than with. When there is something medically wrong with a limb that's one thing - intractable pain, deformity, etc. can be a reason to amputate particularly if a modern prosthesis can result in greater function than possible with an irreparably damaged limb. If you take the view that M>F transsexuals are engaged in penis amputation (and NO, I am not saying that is my view, it's an argument for purposes of this thread) it could still be justified IF it can be demonstrated that the person is more likely to be better functioning, more stable, and happier post-surgery. In other words, removal of a body part brings net benefits not just from the subjective viewpoint, but also in ways that others, outside the person, can judge. This BIID people have NOT demonstrated that, as far as I can see. Their physical functioning would be markedly impaired, as available prosthetics do NOT fully replace healthy organic limb function. Their ability to earn a living and care for themselves are likely to be adversely affected whereas a post-op transsexual is still capable of physical labor and able to fully care for her altered body. Transsexual alterations leave a fully capable human body (aside from reproductive ability). Amputation does not - it can and often does impose a burden on others around the amputee. Ditto for paralysis. Transsexual surgeries are arguably a personal matter, with the effects limited to the affected individual. Amputations affect others. To me, that is a significant difference - the physical burden imposed on others around the affected patient. When amputations and paralysis occur due to accident and disease, well, that's the perversity of the universe and a burden society accepts because we can't prevent all accidents. Voluntary maiming? How can that be justified?
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Actually, that's an excellent argument AGAINST associating GID and BIID, Broomstick, because, guess what? There is in fact a variation of BIID which focuses on removal/destruction of the sexual organs. So saying that GID is a specific variant of BIID or a related condition tends to fall flat from the simple fact that Castration fetishism does in fact exist--and those people do not see themselves as being female. They're men who want to be castrated.
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Post by Broomstick »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Actually, that's an excellent argument AGAINST associating GID and BIID, Broomstick
Feel free to use all or part of it, then.
because, guess what? There is in fact a variation of BIID which focuses on removal/destruction of the sexual organs. So saying that GID is a specific variant of BIID or a related condition tends to fall flat from the simple fact that Castration fetishism does in fact exist--and those people do not see themselves as being female. They're men who want to be castrated.
And, from the linked article, clearly men who want to castrate others.

I think, however, there is some confusion of sexual with non-sexual desire here. While some forms of BIID can involve sexual fetishism, it seems to me (from my admittedly limited knowledge of BIID) that many of the BIID people do not have a sexual component to their amputation/paralysis impulses.

There is a malfunction of body image (Oliver Sachs mentions it in a couple of his essays) that can occur post-stroke where a patient does not recognize a limb as him or her own. For example, such a patient may fall out of bed while attempting to throw a "strange" left leg out of his bed - although the leg is attached, the patient does not perceive it as part of himself. One such patient, asked that, if that left leg was not his left leg, where was his left leg said something like "It's around here somewhere, but even though this leg is attached to me it is not MY leg." So, I suppose, it IS possible there is some sort of brain malfunction involved in BIID. The question then becomes... is amputation the best treatment? Are there other alternatives that don't involve permanent mutilation? And even that is contingent on whether or not there actually is a biological basis for BIID, and also assuming you're correctly separating out people with fantasies about being crippled (analogous to people who like to play at bondage and its paraphernalia, but desire no pain whatsoever as opposed to people who want real pain and blood as part of the experience) versus those who want to be cripples.

If it's a matter of someone not liking, say, their earlobes and having them lopped off, well, who the fuck cares? Big deal. Amputate a small toe? Weird, but in the overall scheme of things if that has a huge payoff in happiness and emotional stability it could be justified because the disability, if any, is extremely minor. It's when you get to talking about major diminishing of physical function - removing a hand or foot is a major inconvenience in many ways, even if people are resourceful enough to adapt and develop work-arounds - that you have to start saying "whoa - this is not acceptable". Stroke patients who suddenly no longer recognize their left leg as their own are NOT treated with amputation - why should we treat BIID with amputation?
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