Rape Trial Judge: Don't say Rape!

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General Zod
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Post by General Zod »

Alyrium Denryle wrote: 3) You have to prove lack of consent. You can explain away pretty much any physical trauma seen during a rape with "she liked it rough" "she is into kinky shit and bit me" etc. It does not even require much heart-string-pulling on the part of the defense to get an acquittal, especially because, if my evolutionary hypothesis is correct, they are looking for reasons to acquit.
An accusation is sufficient for demonstrating a lack of consent in the vast majority of cases. In some cases it's pretty much all you need. (Duke lacrosse scandal, anyone?)
Get that? Are you actually going to read it? You cannot prove rape beyond a reasonable doubt without physical evidence. But physical evidence is not all you need. I am not moving the goalposts here, you just cant or wont read.
Funny, that's not what your earlier post said.
YOU wrote:The thing is you cannot prove rape occured with physical evidence unless the victim is also dead, or was by definition to young to consent.
Perhaps you should try rephrasing that so it's not such an absolute? Don't blame me for your inability to communicate.
And since when the hell does rape ever get someone 20 years in prison? Are you sure those are rape cases and not rape+murder?
How about 20 years, 14 years, and 30 years for starters?
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Alyrium Denryle
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

An accusation is sufficient for demonstrating a lack of consent in the vast majority of cases. In some cases it's pretty much all you need. (Duke lacrosse scandal, anyone?)
Gotta love corrupt prosecutors...
An accusation is sufficient for demonstrating a lack of consent in the vast majority of cases. In some cases it's pretty much all you need. (Duke lacrosse scandal, anyone?)
Gee, then why are conviction rates so damn low? And you are contradicting yourself. False accusations have been bandied up and down this thread.

Perhaps you should try rephrasing that so it's not such an absolute? Don't blame me for your inability to communicate.
And here I was thinking you were competent and capable of taking that in context of my other posts in this very thread and realize I was referring to some sort of physical evidence as a necessary but not sufficient criteria. Seems as if I vastly over-estimated your ability to read, comprehend and synthesize the english language.

How about 20 years, 14 years, and 30 years for starters?
Wow, those are unusually high. The average sentence is 11.8 years while actual time served is around 5.

Also... all three of those cases related to evidentiary problems, misleading expert testomony, and tainted confessions... the Miranda case is the reason Americans are "mirandized" when arrested for fuck's sake.
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Post by Darth Wong »

You know, for someone who insisted earlier that it's not about conviction rates, you sure lean pretty goddamned hard on those conviction rates whenever you want to buttress your case.
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Post by General Zod »

Alyrium Denryle wrote: Gee, then why are conviction rates so damn low? And you are contradicting yourself. False accusations have been bandied up and down this thread.
Low conviction rates? The US has the highest rate of convictions for rape in the world. Where the fuck are you getting your numbers from? Further, it's not a contradiction to point out that it's sufficient for current legal standards (which is a fact), while simultaneously pointing out that it's a flawed process.
And here I was thinking you were competent and capable of taking that in context of my other posts in this very thread and realize I was referring to some sort of physical evidence as a necessary but not sufficient criteria. Seems as if I vastly over-estimated your ability to read, comprehend and synthesize the english language.
I suggest following your own advice, going back and actually reading what I said then. Or do you not know why I included "corroborating" along with "physical evidence"? Should I throw in a Merriam-Webster link?
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Darth Wong wrote:You know, for someone who insisted earlier that it's not about conviction rates, you sure lean pretty goddamned hard on those conviction rates whenever you want to buttress your case.
I am pretty sure I specified my goal enough that your point isnt meaningful. The goal being to maximize solid convictions, as opposed to any and all convictions.

If what Zod said is true, we would predict that rape would be sufficiently proven for a conviction on the mere accusation with corroborating physical evidence. To determine whether or not that is true, it is useful to look at conviction rates.

Because the conviction rate is well into the single digits (at least in the UK) this is obviously not true.

So of course I am going to point that out to him.
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Post by General Zod »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You know, for someone who insisted earlier that it's not about conviction rates, you sure lean pretty goddamned hard on those conviction rates whenever you want to buttress your case.
I am pretty sure I specified my goal enough that your point isnt meaningful. The goal being to maximize solid convictions, as opposed to any and all convictions.

If what Zod said is true, we would predict that rape would be sufficiently proven for a conviction on the mere accusation with corroborating physical evidence. To determine whether or not that is true, it is useful to look at conviction rates.

Because the conviction rate is well into the single digits (at least in the UK) this is obviously not true.

So of course I am going to point that out to him.
Why in the holy fuck are you using UK conviction rates for a thread discussing a crime committed in the US when the conviction rates between the two countries are astronomically disproportionate?
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Low conviction rates? The US has the highest rate of convictions for rape in the world. Where the fuck are you getting your numbers from? Further, it's not a contradiction to point out that it's sufficient for current legal standards (which is a fact), while simultaneously pointing out that it's a flawed process.
54% ish. While murder conviction rates are 69% University of Rochester.

http://sa.rochester.edu/masa/stats.php

Though in the thread I linked to with my Evolutionary Hypothesis, the conviction rate in the UK is 5.7%

An accusation and evidence are enough for legal sufficiency, but maybe you should have specified that. They are not usually sufficient to get a CONVICTION. To, you know, send the bastard to PRISON. Because we have these silly things called JURIES which are typically comprised of the most mentally deficient rejects both lawyers can find.

To actually get a conviction, you have to be able to play on equal footing with the defense, you have to be able to counter the proclamations of angelhood they make about the defendant, or have you skipped the parts where I went over that in detail in your perpetual quest to cherry pick?
I suggest following your own advice, going back and actually reading what I said then. Or do you not know why I included "corroborating" along with "physical evidence"? Should I throw in a Merriam-Webster link?
Strawman. Remember Step three? SHowing non-consent. Where I specifically mentioned the JURY. You may be able to keep the case from being dismissed, you may be able to bring the case before a jury. But you will not be able to convince them of the lack of consent unless you play the Traumatized Victim Card. This is because the physical evidence is boring and they lose their attention, and they are looking for ways to disregard the simple claim that consent was not given is something they are, not only by virtue of the system, but also their evolutionary and cultural baggage. You have to cut through that, either with a corpse, overwhelming physical injuries, or a crying victim. One of the three will work, and in the US, it works better than in the UK apparently. A full order of magnitude better.

What part of that simple argument do you not understand to the degree that you cannot even get it right when you attack it? The only way the mere accusation supported by physical evidence is enough to convict is in a bench trial, and no rape defendant in their right mind goes for a bench trial.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

General Zod wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You know, for someone who insisted earlier that it's not about conviction rates, you sure lean pretty goddamned hard on those conviction rates whenever you want to buttress your case.
I am pretty sure I specified my goal enough that your point isnt meaningful. The goal being to maximize solid convictions, as opposed to any and all convictions.

If what Zod said is true, we would predict that rape would be sufficiently proven for a conviction on the mere accusation with corroborating physical evidence. To determine whether or not that is true, it is useful to look at conviction rates.

Because the conviction rate is well into the single digits (at least in the UK) this is obviously not true.

So of course I am going to point that out to him.
Why in the holy fuck are you using UK conviction rates for a thread discussing a crime committed in the US when the conviction rates between the two countries are astronomically disproportionate?
I apologize. I incorrectly assumed the conviction rates would be similar until I went looking a few minutes ago. Turns out they are an order of magnitude apart... which is odd, because the murder conviction rates are almost exactly the same.

I based my hypothesis on UK conviction rates, I may need to revise.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You know, for someone who insisted earlier that it's not about conviction rates, you sure lean pretty goddamned hard on those conviction rates whenever you want to buttress your case.
I am pretty sure I specified my goal enough that your point isnt meaningful. The goal being to maximize solid convictions, as opposed to any and all convictions.
And yet you have loudly and repeatedly cited the overall conviction rate as evidence for your position.
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Post by Superboy »

Why would allowing the prosecution to use emotional sway on the jury instead of evidence cause a greater increase in solid convictions than false convictions?

Since the process ignores the evidence, wouldn't it bring up the rate of all convictions almost equally?
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Post by Lord MJ »

General Zod wrote:Further, it's not a contradiction to point out that it's sufficient for current legal standards (which is a fact), while simultaneously pointing out that it's a flawed process.
At the risk of Me-Tooing, it is a huge pet peeve facing people that can't comprehend the this argument that you are making.

The whole "sufficient for current legal standards = correct" line of thinking raises my blood pressure whenever I encounter it.
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Obviously crack cocaine base is 10 times worse than its equivalent weight in powder cocaine hydrochloride, MJ. Duh. The fact that the former is used by minorities and the latter by rich white people is totally coincidental.
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