New UK Study Shows Math Standards Slipping

[CaptainZoidberg]

To my knowledge doctors only need Calculus I/II, and in my area that's considered somewhat typical for High School students.

[une]

Counting on exceptional teachers is not a strategy; it only works when you have exceptional teachers, and cannot be taken seriously as a solution for a society-wide improvement program.

Personally, I think a better approach is to have different grades of high-school diploma: Basic, Advanced, and With Honours. In order to get the Advanced or With Honours diplomas, you must take all of the advanced maths. In order to get the With Honours diploma, you must do very well in certain core subjects: language, math, and science.

Right now, everyone gets the same diploma even if they took the bare minimum of maths. But people are conscious of prestige and accolades, and if they know they get the dummy diploma if they don't do well in math, that might provide some extra incentive.

That's not the norm? I know that was the way it was in my high school, I think we had as many as five different diploma types, and I think it's the norm in Indiana.

[Jaepheth]

Incorrect. Pre-med studies require chemistry, biology, and math. Lawyers and politicians don't require any math, but MDs are a pretty important example.

I once had a doctor tell me he sucked at math... He was the doctor at a POS clinic I went to to get a hearing test.

A friend of mine got into med-school not after going through pre-med, but by getting a mathematics degree. And my high school math teacher (who oddly enough had a PhD) said that a mathematics degree gave you a better shot at getting into med school than a pre-med degree.

Ironically, the advances made by science and mathematics are what're probably killing it. Why work on seemingly impossible math problems to fill time when you can just play the latest video game or go see the latest movie? The instant gratification of today's entertainment is ensuring that only the most dedicated and fore-looking children (or those who are forced to by their parents) become good at science and mathematics, which require patience and dedication to be rewarding. Children by their very nature do not usually consider more than the very near future, and so what you end up with is a population of thinkers who are only there because their parents pushed them to achieve, or they're so talented it was inevitable. Examples of this would be Southeast Asians who are driven by their parents and culture, and Stephen Hawking, who really can't do much else other than think.

Not too long ago most all nerds focused on math and electrical circuits as adolescents due to societal pressures, but now the fruits of those decades are siphoning members of that group into "gamer" culture which does not have a very positive impact on man's technical knowledge as it is more art related than science related.

In short, we're getting fewer and fewer average or below genius mathematicians and scientists. The occasional genius means jack shit when you don't have the teams of lesser known scientists to back them up. People just don't live long enough. Oppenheimer couldn't have built an atomic bomb by himself. Gauss' work would be lost to us if there weren't other mathematicians capable of following and appreciating his work. Geniuses need a large "middle class" of intellectuals otherwise there's nothing to distinguish them from madmen, and no one would carry on and expand upon their work.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Nearly everyone I know who does math for fun got excited about math through programming or solving problems. I really got interested in math when I started to explore it as a way of solving problems, and way of exploring the mysteries of life. I think Mr. Wong's Star Wars vs. Star Trek site was a little bit of an eye-opener since it showed how seemingly impossible problems (like figuring out how powerful the death star was) could be solved through math and physics.

I was a math major (now I'm a Bachelor of Maths), but I got into math because of the logic. The concepts and the proofs that consequently fell out of them amaze me. I think that if it were portrayed in a good light, many more people would be interested in learning it, but usually such interest begins in Geometry.

Honestly, as a tutor, I found that the best way to get kids to pay attention was through the use of gimmicky problems or immediately applicaple problems. "If there are 3 doughnuts and 5 of us, how much doughnut does everyone get?" and I would write problems about Batman, Indiana Jones, etc.

I think there's a lot of merit to that point, but I still think that math could be a lot more fun if it was integrated with programming.

How so? That's just completely ridiculous. Elementary and middle school kids are unlikely to enjoy programming, as is indeed the vast majority of the population, and programming would add several unnecessary complications to teaching kids how to multiply, add, subtract and do fractions. I've taught high school kids who didn't know what happens when you subtract 2 from 1--do you really want to throw in learning a programming language to 'help' them learn?


Besides, it's pointless to teach small children programming when only a very few of them will ever need to use it. Just about anyone who lives in a 1st world country will need to know basic math just to keep their finances in order.

Besides, sense of accomplishment is a very powerful motivator to learn, much more powerful than trying to shoehorn one academic subject into another in an attempt to force the few students who have an interest in one field into enjoying learning about the other. The only reason it hasn't been working so well lately is because all of the coddling and lack of consequences for children diminishes any sense of reward when they do accomplish something correctly as opposed to incorrectly.

My experience is of course pretty limited, having only had taken a few college math classes, but from what I've seen engineers have an attitude where they want others to succeed, where mathematicians are more cut-throat. It seems like in engineering the goal is to overcome a natural obstacle, while in mathematics the goal is to be better than other mathematicians.

I went to one of the best Math(s) schools in the country and I can tell you that the mathematicians got along rather famously. We had to; no one else would bother listening to us.
Seriously, though, the only competition I've seen in the math classes I took was between students and the material. We're not talking about the pre-med students who had to back-stab and outshine each other in order to get good enough grades to get into med school. We're not talking about Law or Business students who compete to be noticed so they can get the best recommendation letters from the most well-known profs so they could attend the most prestigious grad schools or jobs. There was no reason for competition since the end result was only based on the student's ability to understand the material or not. Also, 53% of my schools math majors were women, so there wasn't even much competition for mates within our own major.


Anyway, to get back on topic, all of my experience, anecdotal though it might be, points to math problems developing early. Usually you can tell by late elementary school if a student is going to do well in math or not because the problem students in HS are the ones who were weak in the basics in elementary school. One bad math teacher, one teacher who doesn't take the subject seriously or encourage children to take an interest in it, can set back a child for life.

Math is not like English, Science (in elementary school) or History, where a student can later cherry-pick the knowledge he missed in a bad year or continue learning around a gap and still be up to date on current material. Every single step is important in learning mathematics. Every single year is another layer on a foundation that eventually supports the higher math that kids learn in HS. If someone misses out on division, they will never get fractions. If they don't get fractions, then algebra will make no sense to them, etc., etc. You can't have an off year in math education, so it's very important that we foster an interest in it for kids, but even more importantly give them to tools they need to learn it on their own if they miss a lesson.

[Darth Wong]

Math is also the subject in which you are most likely to hear "Why do I need to know this" from kids the instant they start having trouble in the subject. I know I overheard kids saying that a lot when I was in school. Fat idiot Rosie O'Donnell even said it on national TV, when she called for the elimination of math programs in school (she actually did that once).

I think it's important to show kids why you need to know math. Math teachers, in my experience, were far too likely to give a really shitty answer, like "you need to understand this so you can learn more math in future".

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Math is not like English, Science (in elementary school) or History, where a student can later cherry-pick the knowledge he missed in a bad year or continue learning around a gap and still be up to date on current material. Every single step is important in learning mathematics. Every single year is another layer on a foundation that eventually supports the higher math that kids learn in HS. If someone misses out on division, they will never get fractions. If they don't get fractions, then algebra will make no sense to them, etc., etc. You can't have an off year in math education, so it's very important that we foster an interest in it for kids, but even more importantly give them to tools they need to learn it on their own if they miss a lesson.

One of my biggest regrets was not taking some of the classes in university that helped nurture the ability to do proofs. Or maybe I wasn't just cut out for it. Oh well, I guess since I was more interested in Physics, my Mathematics skills will largely be just complementary to my purpose.

[CaptainZoidberg]

I was a math major (now I'm a Bachelor of Maths), but I got into math because of the logic. The concepts and the proofs that consequently fell out of them amaze me. I think that if it were portrayed in a good light, many more people would be interested in learning it, but usually such interest begins in Geometry.

If you don't mind me asking, are there jobs for math majors (without graduate school)? I've sometimes considered a math major, since I really enjoy solving problems, but engineering has always seemed to be much safer from a career standpoint.

Honestly, as a tutor, I found that the best way to get kids to pay attention was through the use of gimmicky problems or immediately applicaple problems. "If there are 3 doughnuts and 5 of us, how much doughnut does everyone get?" and I would write problems about Batman, Indiana Jones, etc.

I've never been a tutor, but I could see that working.

I think a good way to get kids excited about math is to give them a very difficult problem, say:

"If there are n people standing in a circle, each one with one penny, and the first person passes one penny to the person on their right, and that person passes two pennies to the person on their right, and that person passes one penny to the person on their right, and if a person leaves the circle when they have no pennies, for what values of n will one person end up with all the pennies?"

How so? That's just completely ridiculous. Elementary and middle school kids are unlikely to enjoy programming, as is indeed the vast majority of the population, and programming would add several unnecessary complications to teaching kids how to multiply, add, subtract and do fractions. I've taught high school kids who didn't know what happens when you subtract 2 from 1--do you really want to throw in learning a programming language to 'help' them learn?

Really, I've always thought programming was fun as anything.

Besides, it's pointless to teach small children programming when only a very few of them will ever need to use it. Just about anyone who lives in a 1st world country will need to know basic math just to keep their finances in order.

I can agree with that.

Besides, sense of accomplishment is a very powerful motivator to learn, much more powerful than trying to shoehorn one academic subject into another in an attempt to force the few students who have an interest in one field into enjoying learning about the other. The only reason it hasn't been working so well lately is because all of the coddling and lack of consequences for children diminishes any sense of reward when they do accomplish something correctly as opposed to incorrectly.

Right, but what if some students learn everything without effort, while others never learn any of the concepts?

Seriously, though, the only competition I've seen in the math classes I took was between students and the material.

Did you take the AMC in HS? That test is pretty rough, and its basically what puts High School students "in their place".

Moreover, I have a pretty good perception of the college admissions system from going through it last year. At our High School (class size of 300), the most popular schools to apply to (for good mathy students) are MIT, Johns Hopkins, and Carnegie Mellon. Each year most kids seem to get into Carnegie Mellon, a couple get into Hopkins, and once in a blue moon one kid happens to get into MIT. (If you're curious I got waitlisted at Hopkins, and rejected outright at the other two).

It always seems like the students getting into those top schools do well on tests like the AMC (very competitive), and have very high SAT scores.

To get into a competitive college nowadays it seems like you have to compete with your fellow students on the math exams.

We're not talking about the pre-med students who had to back-stab and outshine each other in order to get good enough grades to get into med school. We're not talking about Law or Business students who compete to be noticed so they can get the best recommendation letters from the most well-known profs so they could attend the most prestigious grad schools or jobs.

Don't college students have the Putnam exam?

There was no reason for competition since the end result was only based on the student's ability to understand the material or not. Also, 53% of my schools math majors were women, so there wasn't even much competition for mates within our own major.

What school was this? Nearly all of the schools I looked into (ignoring Hopkins medical program) had a massive male:female ratio.

Anyway, to get back on topic, all of my experience, anecdotal though it might be, points to math problems developing early. Usually you can tell by late elementary school if a student is going to do well in math or not because the problem students in HS are the ones who were weak in the basics in elementary school. One bad math teacher, one teacher who doesn't take the subject seriously or encourage children to take an interest in it, can set back a child for life.

Are you sure that there's a casual relationship between poor elementary school learning and bad high school performance? Perhaps its just that both correlate a lot to IQ?

Math is not like English, Science (in elementary school) or History, where a student can later cherry-pick the knowledge he missed in a bad year or continue learning around a gap and still be up to date on current material. Every single step is important in learning mathematics. Every single year is another layer on a foundation that eventually supports the higher math that kids learn in HS. If someone misses out on division, they will never get fractions. If they don't get fractions, then algebra will make no sense to them, etc., etc. You can't have an off year in math education, so it's very important that we foster an interest in it for kids, but even more importantly give them to tools they need to learn it on their own if they miss a lesson.

I agree with that. I think if we reduced the negative stigma on summer school and tutoring than we'd be better able to help students bridge the gap.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Jobs for Math majors other than graduate school? Sure. Banks in New York pay them big to have them do their modelling. Acturial math gets you jobs in the Insurance companies etc. Pay is good too.

[Jaepheth]

Jobs for Math majors other than graduate school? Sure. Banks in New York pay them big to have them do their modelling. Acturial math gets you jobs in the Insurance companies etc. Pay is good too.

Actuary Salaries

This is the field I'm trying to get into right now. Once you get an actuarial career started, it's a damn sweet deal. (From what I've heard)

An anecdotal "fact" that one of my advisers used at a math majors' meeting was that if two people with no experience in a field are put to work in that field, the mathematician will almost always do the better job. A math degree is like a swiss army knife, you can apply it to any field imaginable. That's the primary reason I got my BS in Applied Mathematics, I wanted to keep my options open.

[Ford Prefect]

This news saddens me somewhat. I am pretty poor at maths now, but back in the day I could sleep through my classes and still do very well. Though I wish to take up law as a profession, I currently take subjects like quantative methods at university, which I'm terrible at. I hear about all these poor students of maths and I become annoyed at how I squandered my ability.

[CaptainZoidberg]

Jobs for Math majors other than graduate school? Sure. Banks in New York pay them big to have them do their modelling. Acturial math gets you jobs in the Insurance companies etc. Pay is good too.

Hmmm... I'll look into that.