How to fix Episode III

[Darth Hoth]

What would you have them do, paperwork? The Jedi are wasted if you don't put them on the frontlines. You can argue that it's stupid (and without a doubt politically-motivated) to make them generals, but having them in ur base, killing ur d00ds is the only real use for Jedi barring battle meditation.

I see it as a bit of anachronistic neofeudalism (in keeping with their role as "Knights of the Republic"). And even if the armies "belong" to the HJGs I'll bet anything each had a proper chain of command that actually ran the show but was forced to answer to their HJG for political reasons.

I see that IP has already answered; essentially, my points would be similar. Jedi would belong on the bridge/HQ or in special units. One might perhaps consider the Myrkr team from NJO somewhat similar to how they should work (although that mission was not exactly the most thought through).

Oh, and another point that bugs me with platoon-leading Jedi, even on quiet fronts such as Felucia (Aayla Secura), is that it is yet another example of rampant minimalism. If there are a few thousand Jedi at best, apparently all leading units of such size, then the GAR literally is of Traviss-esque size.

[Darth Hoth]

Why can't he just make mistakes and not account for every detail, as opposed to big picture stuff? Did everyone just ignore my list of prequels flubs?

All right, you do make a pretty convincing case. Especially the not knowing of the Skywalker children bit would be suggestive of apparent limits to his precog.

[Galvatron]

I could have done without epic lameness of the Jedi striking a Power Rangers pose after igniting their lightsabers in both AOTC and ROTS. Even Obi-Wan did it when he fought Grievous.

I mean, I'm an unabashed prequel hater and I say that only 1/3 of the whole saga is any good, but those scenes are just a total fucking embarrassment to watch.

Made just as many good Star Wars movies as Lucas has since then: none.

The moviegoing public disagrees. Most people also realizee that Lucas is the greatest filmmaker of all time. After all, even the people who think he's "lost it" and who hate his guts still pay to watch his movies.

The moviegoing public? That's your measure of quality? Lucas the greatest filmmaker of all time??

I pay to watch his movies because I desperately WANT them to be good. I wish the prequels didn't suck, but they did since TPM and never got any better.

George's insularity following the success of the first Star Wars is well-documented.

Lucas was insular before the success of Star Wars, and insisted on doing things his way. The whole reason he left Hollywood is so they couldn't fuck up his movies.

And then he became even MORE insular and got rid of the people who helped get him there.

He systematically rid himself of as many dissenting viewpoints as possible while Lucasfilm grew into the sort of corporate empire he once supposedly loathed.

Evidence, please.

I'd be happy to when I get ahold of my copy of Empire Building. Of course, you'll probably just dismiss it as a smear piece and call the author a dick. Maybe even throw in the roll-eyes and middle-finger emoticons for good measure.

[Knife]

Just the leadership and the whole thing really was a shame by powermongers.

That's one thing I never really did like. Palpatine is so great that he can manipulate just about everyone, and see the future well enough to set into motion and control colossal galaxy spanning events, such as the Clone Wars, Grevious, etc etc yet, by the OT, he can't foresee and manipulate relatively simple events like:

• Preventing the Death Star I's destruction -- "Lord Vader, I want you to send out every starfighter there is." via holonet.
• Making sure that the Rebellion was crushed at Hoth -- "Lord Vader, execute Admiral Ozzel, and exit hyperspace within the orbit of the Sixth Planet"
• Having the precognition to issue standing orders to the people inside the Shield Generator bunker: "This is a direct order from your emperor; do not exit the bunker nor allow anyone in once a lockdown commences. Only I shall give the order to raise the lockdown."

His near-omniscience in setting up events in the Prequel trilogy just don't mesh with what we know of his control of events in the original trilogy.

I don't mind that actually. It wraps stuff up nicely for me. The Jedi suffered from arrogance enough that the Sith were able to plot their down fall, later the Sith are arrogant enough that mere mortals can plot their downfall.

Or if you want to use the philosophical approach, the Force allowed the Sith to set up the flawed Jedi and Republic to fall to hasten change, then set up the Sith to fall when all the necessary change was in place to restore order.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The problem is rather than being prudent, Palpatine plans with the assumption that his control and predictive talents (be they mundane or fantastic) are nearly perfect, with corresponding margins of error. The thing is that he is superbly good, almost as good as he plans for - but not quite. This meant that with his endless plotting and contingencies, he was able to make up for minor oversights and missed details along the way - but only for so long.

[Battlehymn Republic]

I personally subscribe to the theory that Palpatine in part needs the Rebellion, as it further consolidates his power over the Empire. Rally round the flag and all that. Furthermore, I don't think that he particularly cares about his Death Star getting blown up, systems falling away, and so on... none of these things would matter once he apotheosized, which was his ultimate goal.

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, I think that anyone who attacks the prequels on the basis of them not being realistic enough should never have been a Star Wars fan in the first place, even for a moment. The original film had Han Solo and Luke Skywalker operating hand turrets in the Falcon! Like it or not, it's never tried particularly hard to be realistic, and to be all shocked and disappointed when the prequels do the same thing is just silly. It may be possible to try and create a rational backstory for a lot of these things, but we all know that there is not much interest at the top level in making it realistic, and there never was.

The films ran into problems where the story meandered or became indistinct, not because someone's military tactics were unrealistic or they struck an incorrect swordfighting pose.

[Galvatron]

The Death Star is probably more important in the actual movies in which Palpatine's ultimate goal was never stated to be some uberwank dark side apotheosis.

The films ran into problems where the story meandered or became indistinct, not because someone's military tactics were unrealistic or they struck an incorrect swordfighting pose.

Agreed. My objection to the Jedi posing isn't that they're doing it incorrectly (I'm no Kendo expert like Bob Brown), but that they looked exceedingly fucking stupid even to my untrained eye. It was clownish, Power Rangers shit.

[Illuminatus Primus]

His Sithian ambitions are clearly more important to him than bare technology, judging from how the ROTJ film basically has the Rebellion and the Death Star and all that as props simply to get a new and whole Skywalker over as his apprentice.

[Galvatron]

But even Palpatine needed an army and ships. The Death Star was clearly his means for overhwelming the defenses of even the most heavily-shielded worlds, thereby allowing him to finally drop the pretense of being anything but an absolute ruler and to dissolve the increasingly rebellious senate. His ultimate goal, at least, being the establishment of an everlasting Sith dynasty.

[Darth Wong]

I don't see why you can't just chalk up all of Palpatine's mistakes to an absurd excess of self-confidence, probably stemming from the fact that earlier in his career, he had single-handedly overthrown the entire galactic government and bent it to his personal control while simultaneously eliminating the entire Jedi Order, recruiting the galaxy's most powerful new Force user out from under their noses, tricking them into paying for his new personal army, and crushing a group of powerful corporate and regional interests which were threatening to take control of the galaxy themselves.

Hitler was full of himself because he managed to bluff his way to several easy conquests of small European states. Imagine how much Palpatine's early exploits must have contributed to his absurd overconfidence in his own predictive ability. It's hard to conceive of any other fictional villain who accomplished so much in so little time, with so few starting resources other than his own cleverness.

[Galvatron]

Some explanation as to how it was surmised that Dooku was a Sith Lord (rather than just a fallen Jedi) would be nice.

It would also be nice to know why the Republic continued to use clonetroopers that were based on their enemy's deceased lackey. Shouldn't this alone have set off some major warning bells?

[Elfdart]

It's funny watching people use Spielberg, Kurtz, Kershner, even Lucas' ex-wife as ciphers for the idea that Lucas should have taken advice from them.

So the fact that Empire Strikes Back is considered to be the best SW movie flies by your head?

Considered by whom? The moviegoing public voted with their ticket money: A New Hope wins hands down. Critical acclaim? Setting aside that critics are by and large bovine fucktards who follow thw herd, ANH and the prequels are the only Star Wars movies with positive ratings on Rotten Tomatoes.

The more control that Lucas has over a project, the shittier it is; it's only when he has someone who can stand up to him and control his more stupid ideas that he does good work.

The only time anyone was in a position to "stand up" to Lucas was during the filming of ANH. What was the input from the studio? The kept sending Lucas memos to have Chewbacca wear pants. Oh, and they threatened to pull the plug on the movie, then cut it up and turn it into a Saturday Morning kids' show -without special effects. Yeah, he really needed all that to make better movies.


Since he had sole possession of the rights to Star Wars and Indiana Jones, he had final say on all of the movies. So the notion that someone was going to tell Lucas what he could or could not do with his own properties is moronic.

[Galvatron]

The only time anyone was in a position to "stand up" to Lucas was during the filming of ANH.

Kurtz did. Kershner did.

Scroll to page 219 and start reading...

[Elfdart]

The moviegoing public? That's your measure of quality? Lucas the greatest filmmaker of all time??

Obviously Lucas is the greatest filmmaker of all time. Just look at how many people pay to watch his films, even though they have already decided the movies will suck. They suck but you still pay to watch?

I pay to watch his movies because I desperately WANT them to be good. I wish the prequels didn't suck, but they did since TPM and never got any better.

Yet you still pay to watch. I loathe Spike Lee movies. Guess how many I've paid to watch? Zero. I saw a couple of them on TV and they sucked out loud. Yet you would never catch me paying to watch one of Lee's "joints" and you sure as hell wouldn't find me bitching about how his movies would have been so much better if he had listened to his underlings or his wife or the caterer -when all of them are really just avatars for "me".

And then he became even MORE insular and got rid of the people who helped get him there.

Who did he "get rid of"? His wife left him. He and Gary Kurtz split when Kurtz went $10 million over budget. Who else did he get rid of?

He systematically rid himself of as many dissenting viewpoints as possible while Lucasfilm grew into the sort of corporate empire he once supposedly loathed.

Evidence, please.

I'd be happy to when I get ahold of my copy of Empire Building. Of course, you'll probably just dismiss it as a smear piece and call the author a dick. Maybe even throw in the roll-eyes and middle-finger emoticons for good measure.

In other words, you have no proof. I thank you for this concession.

[Darth Wong]

The only time anyone was in a position to "stand up" to Lucas was during the filming of ANH.

Kurtz did. Kershner did.

Scroll to page 219 and start reading...

I thought you said he silenced all dissenting opinions.

[Galvatron]

The only time anyone was in a position to "stand up" to Lucas was during the filming of ANH.

Kurtz did. Kershner did.

Scroll to page 219 and start reading...

I thought you said he silenced all dissenting opinions.

He did. He started with John Dykstra after ANH. Then he blamed Kurtz for the budget overruns and Kersh's slowness in TESB and rid himself of that unwelcome source of dissent as well. No wonder we got Ewoks in ROTJ. The people who had the balls to tell him they were fucking stupid were all gone by then.

[Darth Wong]

Kurtz did. Kershner did.

Scroll to page 219 and start reading...

I thought you said he silenced all dissenting opinions.

After the "disastrous" experience he had with TESB, he did.

If he hated the dissenting opinion so much, then why did he go with the dissenter's edit?

[Galvatron]

I edited my last post.

He went with the dissenter's edit because Kersh calmly explained to "supereditor" that his quick-cut jumbled mess was a travesty. However, the book makes it clear that even Kersh didn't fully get his way because he thinks TESB is too fast.

[Darth Ruinus]

Then he blamed Kurtz for the budget overruns and Kersh's slowness in TESB and rid himself of that unwelcome source of dissent as well.

Well, I dont know anything about this but, by the way you put it, it sounds like someone simply went over the budget and the second time because someone was taking way to long to do his job. How is getting rid of those people a bad thing? How is it getting rid of dissent?

[Jim Raynor]

I still remember all of the idiot fanboys who were upset that shitty EU ship designs didn't show up in the prequels.

I'm still annnoyed that they didn't even bother to show brand spanking new Y-Wings with their hull plating still on.

I think that's what makes the prequels fall down -- they seem to be their own self contained universe separate from the original trilogy -- there's no sense of continuity with the Original Trilogy; other than the design of the Clonetrooper's suits, the appearance of the Tantive IV, and of course, Yoda/Chewie.

Shouldn't all the military equipment that's been built for the clone wars (read, Y-Wings) be widely available as military surplus 20 years later (ANH)?

The original trilogy showed exactly two types of warships for the Empire: the top of the line Executor and the ISD, which was basically everything else. On the ground, there were exactly two types of vehicles shown: AT-ATs and AT-STs. The Rebels had their own stuff, but since most of it was supposed to be improvised or second-rate crap, I don't think the prequels can be faulted for not including them. There's not much to deviate from when the originals didn't go very deep to begin with.

The prequels are full of precursors to original trilogy tech. The Sith Infiltrator, V-wings, and Eta-2 all share similarities with TIE fighters. ARC-170s were obviously made to look like X-wings, and Acclamators and Venators were mini-ISDs. I'm glad they gave us those prequel ships instead of crap like dildo Dreadnaughts.

[Galvatron]

Then he blamed Kurtz for the budget overruns and Kersh's slowness in TESB and rid himself of that unwelcome source of dissent as well.

Well, I dont know anything about this but, by the way you put it, it sounds like someone simply went over the budget and the second time because someone was taking way to long to do his job. How is getting rid of those people a bad thing? How is it getting rid of dissent?

Since the PDF I linked to is copy-protected, I can't copy and paste anything from it here so I suggest you read it.

That said, you should be happy it went over budget. Lucas wanted to make it on the cheap and was willing to sacrifice quality to do so. The following is from page 221 of the link I posted above:

"It looks pretty because Kersh took a lot of time to do it," Lucas states of Empire. "It's a great luxury that we really couldn't afford. And ultimately it doesn't make that much difference...It was just a lot better than I wanted to make it."

[Elfdart]

The only time anyone was in a position to "stand up" to Lucas was during the filming of ANH.

Kurtz did. Kershner did.

Scroll to page 219 and start reading...

Not that pile of horseshit again.

Since you obviously don't know how movies are made, I'll explain it to you: George Lucas owns Star Wars and Indiana Jones lock, stock and barrel. The movies cannot and will not be made unless he consents. He also has final say on story, characters, and everything else. Now, he may give the people working for/with him free rein to do as they please -but he still has final say. It's his house, his rules. That's why he pulled the plug on Frank Darabont's script for Indy 4, even though Spielberg and Harrison Ford liked it. It's also why he took over directing parts of ROTJ himself. He gets to make the call because it's his show. His name (plus a Bank of America loan) was on the line in TESB. He couldn't afford to spend more and more while the crew dotted every "i" and crossed every "t".

Compare how Kurtz went way over budget and how Kershner kept worrying scenes to death with re-shoots to how things went on Raiders of the Lost Ark a year later. Howard Kazanjian and Steven Spielberg brought the movie in cheaper and earlier than they had expected AND to better reviews by critics and comparable box office.

But Lucas is an asshole who needs to be told "no".

[Galvatron]

Not that pile of horseshit again.

Well, I definitely called that one. You never even bothered to read it, did you?

[TC Pilot]

Personally, I believe Ep. III's troubles began with Ep. 1. It seemed a total rehash of IV's self-contained "in-case-it-bombs" plot. So instead of having three movies to tell the story of Anakin's life as a Jedi, the Clone Wars, the rise of the Empire, and the fall of Anakin Skywalker, we get two. I don't think that's enough time (unless we're talking LOTR run-times), and I think it really showed.

But if we're only talking about Ep. III changes, I would redo the Battle of Coruscant, taking out all the worthless buzz-droid and R2-elevator jacking out to focus on more important things, like establishing Anakin and Obi-Wan's brotherly relationship, then expand on Anakin's dreams, the reasons for being so angry over being refused a mastership, and change Palpatine so he's not some cackling maniac. Personally, I thought it would have been better if: 1. Palpatine had done no fighting and Anakin had instead, and 2. Have Padme shoot Vader on Mustafar, saving Obi-Wan and mutilating Vader, just to give her a purpose in the movie besides baby-carrier.