Anyone have any good refs regarding Alcoholics Anonymous?

[Superboy]

I briefly attended AA, and I can tell you from experience that's it's useless to an Atheist. I actually can't understand how it helps anyone, really. Everyone kept trying to convince me that nobody can overcome alcoholism on their own. They weren't saying you need the help of friends or family, they were saying you need the help of a higher power. The word "powerless" was used a lot.

I can't understand how that state of mind, which basically takes responsibility away from the person with the problem, helps anyone overcome that problem.

[Darth Wong]

Mr. Doorknob is my case study, I am not personally endorsing AA so this is not a testimonial.

So what was the point of talking about how successful he was? Red-herring just for the fun of it?

Your argument is that if you can convince people that their own behaviour is actually being controlled by someone else, then they will have a better chance of changing their own behaviour. I don't see how that logically follows at all, and since you aren't presenting any EVIDENCE to support this assertion, it looks to me like all you're doing is rhythmically repeating an unsupported claim.

That isn't my argument, I am arguing that encouraging the belief that a person with a substance abuse problem is not in full control of their life is a neccesary step in their recovery.

And your evidence to support this completely unjustified assertion is ...?

it provides the impetus to assert self control, engage in therapy and be an active participant ones life.

I could just as easily say the opposite: by taking away individual responsibility for his own actions, it takes away the impetus to assert self-control, engage in therapy, and be an active participant in one's life. In fact, that actually makes sense, while yours does not.

that is what I am proposing but it is NOT what AA proposes. I see value in the program for some people but as a model it isn't half bad either, it just needs adaptation to fit individual need. An application of evidence based practice to this model could be really effective.

You haven't done anything to justify this model, which appears to be entirely based upon a gigantic leap in logic: that by taking away individual responsibility, you make it more likely that the person will take responsibility for his own future. How the fuck does that follow? If you want a child to take responsibility for his own actions, do you tell him that his actions are beyond his control?

They could make exactly the same assumption that I did, that the recognition of a higher power would not be a major stumbling block for an atheist so long as it was not in reference to a specific organized religion.

This assumption is nonsensical beyond belief.

[Knife]

WHY WOULD YOU NOT USE A BANDAID?? You are stating that it was inadequate as a final solution and I agree, because coping strategies are temporary fixes that enable a person to cunftion while dealing with a mental illness.

No they are not, coping strategies are a funny way of saying behavioral change. Changing behavior is, hopefully, permanent and changed from a negative association to a positive one. It's not a fucking bandaide, so why the fuck would some one want a bandaide when a damn doctor is available.

Are YOU saying that if you slashed your arm, you would run straight to the hospital and not bandage the arm before leaving? its a temporary fix, you should still seek more thorough treatment but obviously you wouldn't take NO action until treatment could be found.

I sure as shit wouldn't stop at the bandaide nor would I become the personal spokesman of bandaides touting how bandaides saved my life after such an event.

You don't consider Religion a behavior strategy?

I consider religion a curious mix of emotional need and associative behavior that power mongers use to their own benefit.

AA is group therapy session, and AA can be the first crutch in the chain of crutches you propose.

Look, group therapy is probably a great thing for addicts to go to. I won't knock it, that said, nothing says they need some silly ass 12 step system in place to both receive that therapy nor the 12 step to have therapy work.

Well I wasn't really talking about associative disordersi was just talking about obstacles to a rational thought process.

Which a lot of what we're talking about is associative disorders. People associate the booze/drugs/religion as a means to solve their problems. Even if it's temporary. Then they condition themselves to the point they 'need' it. It's all fairly basic psyc and really doesn't require a leap in faith like a twelve step system. If anything, abandoning all responsibility is probably the worst thing they can do.

AA can play on a persons existing schemas to help assert a worldview that allows them to surrender control.

Why do you consider this to be a good thing?

A positive mindset promotes healing ESPECIALLY froma mental illness.

Indeed it does.

A mindset would be more positive if a person were able to believe "I am sufffering but God has a plan for me" as opposed to the more cynical

'I gave myself to god and the fucker still let me drink eight fingers of scotch last night, I'm screwed.'

No it wouldn't. You have yet to show how this would benefit a patient. A healthy mindset would be to introduce the idea that he/she can indeed beat the addiction, but through hard work and effort. But that effort and hard work will serve him well after the treatment since that built up willpower will keep him from relapsing later on in life, rather than god will take care of you if you pray hard enough.

An alcoholic would probably just assume he didn't REALLY give himselff over to God enough and he needs to be even MORE committed to the progrram.

Sounds like a shitty treatment to me, rather more like a marketing campaign to keep people coming back.

Knife I already conceded to lusankya that AA as described here would not be effective for most atheists. A non-atheist who has a belief in God, has that belief affirmed and can access the structure associated with worship. going to church regularly, praying, singing testifying, participating in dsicussion groups attending social activities, its a gift wrapped lifestyle that is handed to you in a very structured environment. with clearly presented rules roles and mores. It alleviates the sense of anomie that quitting drinking creates, because up until that point the person was pretty much worshipping the bottle, setting regular times to drink associating with people who also regualrly drink etc.

And yet you don't show how this system can be better to anyone, let alone athiests, than real therapy. We seem to circle around this point a lot.

nope because AA treats Alcohol Dependence as a lifelong illness you can never fully recover from.

For the benefit of the patient or the benefit of the organization?

it is good that it promotes recognition of alcohol dependence as an illness as opposed to the work of the Divvil but I am not arguing it is a good permamnent solution. They DO have something to fall back on, MORE AA meetings.

I give individuals credit for trying to help, but the organization and the doctrine sounds more self serving than actual attempt to help.

Thats where AA falls apart as a coping strategy because either the person used it as a launching platform towards more supportive servicces or they barely needed it in the first place.

Plus, as you admit, it encourages people to keep coming back when you also admit it's not a permanent solution. You don't see the problem there?

[Kitsune]

I have heard a few "personal testimonials" from individuals who went to AA Meetings who wanted to drink because of the meetings.

Sorry but it is me. I need to decide to quit if I am an alcoholic

[Knife]

AA can play on a persons existing schemas to help assert a worldview that allows them to surrender control.

Just wanted to go off on a little tangent here, since this bit keeps coming up in this thread:

As I see it, this is the problem with wide scale religious indoctrination. The whole 12 step program was created by two whack-job Christian fundamentalists. They wanted to spread religion and the power of god by showing addicts that god can cure them and how great god is.

Fast forward a couple decades, add on top self proclaimed success, and the 12 step (and it's christian roots/mission) is so accepted as 'normal' that nobody consciously equates it with it's roots/mission. It's to the point that 'surrender yourself to a higher power' is supposed to equate to 'change your behavior' or some such shit. And it is not!

It's just as stupid as the old 'morals come from god, thus if you don't believe in god you have no morals' crap dressed up as therapy.

[Themightytom]

So “what was the point of talking about how successful he was? Red-herring just for the fun of it?”

When I said “I am not personally endorsing AA, I was clarifying I am not making assertions based on direct personal feelings, therefore I am not as biased as someone who came from an AA meeting. That’s the difference between a case study and a testimonial.

Testimonials are unverifiable opinions from a supportive source, Case studies are individuals observed with those observations recorded. I did not say Mr. Doorknob was happier, more jubilant, or make any comments of an opinionated, I pointed out that he has a job a family, and has increased his education level, all of which demonstrate significant improvements in his affective domain. I pointed out that he doesn't drink anymore and doesn't plan his life around it. This means he doesn’t fit criteria that he once fit according to current alcohol dependence definitions. he WAS Ill, now he has no symptoms.


http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/alco ... osis.shtml

“a person with a substance abuse problem is not in FULL control of their life is a necessary step in their recovery.”

Points 4 5 and 7 of the alcohol dependence symptoms as described in the DSMIV ( link above) include a demonstrated lack of self control. You don’t necessarily have to have ANY of these criteria in order to be diagnosed with Alcohol dependence but there’s a good chance you will.

With regards to my assertion that the recognition that one is not in full control of one’s life provides the impetus to take ownership of it, you are right that doesn’t make sense the way I presented it. I was trying to articulate the need for an individual participating in therapy to lower barriers in order to participate fully in therapy, but they shouldn’t have those barriers lowered FOR them by asserting they are out of control and have no choice, I was thinking of it more in the manner of a patient being wholly receptive to help offered by a therapist, as opposed to someone accepting some help in some areas but resisting strongly in others out of a sense that those are areas that don’t need to be examined.

The AA model is heavily weighted towards a belief in God, and having him do the work of healing but there is a lot stated that frames a receptive awareness that change needs to occur, that alcohol is too high a priority in an individual’s life the need to address past misdeeds those steps are important in recognizing the need for help, identifying a source of a problem, addressing that problem and making amends. It has a lot of value when used as a group contract to determine purpose responsibility and roles.



I wouldn’t rubber stamp the whole thing into any substance abuse situation or group meeting, but I would definitely use it as a foundational model, replacing the inappropriate parts with new goals.

That might even be an effective first exercise, its very common in a group therapy model to have the members articulate their own intentions and goals, and to agree upon behavioral expectations before beginning.

They will develop a contract under the guidance of the therapist. This would be something to give them to start with and say “This is a starting point, take out what you don’t agree with and begin discussing what you would replace it with.”

Yeah really we can stop repeatedly stating how much I underestimated resistance to acknowledgement of a higher power in Atheists. I really thought atheism was more about not acknowledging the existence of a God than it was about resisting acknowledgement of ANY HIGHER POWER, I can’t conceive of a schema based on “There is no power greater than me.” I promise to the whole bulletin board I will never refer an atheist to A.A. program unless they ask and if they do I’m giving them a copy of the 12 steps so they know what they are getting into.

[Darth Wong]

Testimonials are unverifiable opinions from a supportive source, Case studies are individuals observed with those observations recorded.

And neither of them is evidence for anything you have claimed.

http://www.mentalhealthchannel.net/alco ... osis.shtml

“a person with a substance abuse problem is not in FULL control of their life is a necessary step in their recovery.”

For one thing, that sentence does not occur on the page you linked. For another, when we say "that person lacks self-control", it does not actually mean that he is not literally in control of his actions. That is a common phrase which denotes lack of discipline. You're just playing word games now.

With regards to my assertion that the recognition that one is not in full control of one’s life provides the impetus to take ownership of it, you are right that doesn’t make sense the way I presented it. I was trying to articulate the need for an individual participating in therapy to lower barriers in order to participate fully in therapy, but they shouldn’t have those barriers lowered FOR them by asserting they are out of control and have no choice, I was thinking of it more in the manner of a patient being wholly receptive to help offered by a therapist, as opposed to someone accepting some help in some areas but resisting strongly in others out of a sense that those are areas that don’t need to be examined.

In other words, saying that they are not in control of their own actions is a way of getting them to admit they have a problem? Why don't you say that then, since the AA model is designed to convince the person that some external agent is in control of his actions?

The AA model is heavily weighted towards a belief in God, and having him do the work of healing but there is a lot stated that frames a receptive awareness that change needs to occur, that alcohol is too high a priority in an individual’s life the need to address past misdeeds those steps are important in recognizing the need for help, identifying a source of a problem, addressing that problem and making amends. It has a lot of value when used as a group contract to determine purpose responsibility and roles.

And there is no evidence that the AA model actually works any better than any other treatment, or for that matter, no treatment at all.

I wouldn’t rubber stamp the whole thing into any substance abuse situation or group meeting, but I would definitely use it as a foundational model, replacing the inappropriate parts with new goals.

Why?

That might even be an effective first exercise, its very common in a group therapy model to have the members articulate their own intentions and goals, and to agree upon behavioral expectations before beginning.

And you believe it is "effective" ... why?

They will develop a contract under the guidance of the therapist. This would be something to give them to start with and say “This is a starting point, take out what you don’t agree with and begin discussing what you would replace it with.”

And this would be a good idea ... why?

Yeah really we can stop repeatedly stating how much I underestimated resistance to acknowledgement of a higher power in Atheists. I really thought atheism was more about not acknowledging the existence of a God than it was about resisting acknowledgement of ANY HIGHER POWER, I can’t conceive of a schema based on “There is no power greater than me.”

There are many powers greater than me. The gravity of the Earth, for example. But powers which can take away my personality defects for me? That's just plain idiotic, and you have presented ZERO evidence that this idea is useful or effective in treating alcoholism, yet you keep stating that it's a good idea.

I promise to the whole bulletin board I will never refer an atheist to A.A. program unless they ask and if they do I’m giving them a copy of the 12 steps so they know what they are getting into.

That's good to hear. But it appears that your own indoctrination has left you incapable of looking at this issue objectively, given your bizarre and repeated assertions that without a shred of evidence, you can still be confident that these mechanisms are effective. Not to mention your even more bizarre belief that the God described in the 12-step program is a very generic belief and not at all related to Christianity in particular, even though the idea of a god who takes away your own sins and weaknesses is actually quite specific to Christianity.

[Themightytom]

And neither of them is evidence for anything you have claimed

.
I was using his case to demosntrate the one situation I knew of in which someone non religious used an A.A. program succesfully.

“

a person with a substance abuse problem is not in FULL control of their life is a necessary step in their recovery.”

For one thing, that sentence does not occur on the page you linked

That is because I was quoting myself and then pointing to the parts of the diagnosis that support my assertion that a person with alcohol dependence is not in full control of their actions, they are motivated by an uncontrolled compulsion to drink.

For another, when we say "that person lacks self-control", it does not actually mean that he is not literally in control of his actions. That is a common phrase which denotes lack of discipline. You're just playing word games now.

The degree of control is central to my understanding of Alcohol dependence. it is more severe than a simple lack of discipline.

And there is no evidence that the AA model actually works any better than any other treatment, or for that matter, no treatment at all.

No but there is evidence in Darth Lucifers article that points out how difficult getting that evidence is in the first place. I;m not arguing that AA is better than any other treatment. I am saying it is recognized, if for no other reason than its everywhere. thats not an earth shaking announcement.

I wouldn’t rubber stamp the whole thing into any substance abuse situation or group meeting, but I would definitely use it as a foundational model, replacing the inappropriate parts with new goals.

Why?

Why start in an arbitrary place. They will have expectations, they will avhe heard stories we might as well start with what they expect and move from there.

And you believe it is "effective" ... why?

I said "Could be." for the reasons stated above.

And this would be a good idea ... why?

because it helps a group establish a unified purpose, goals, and acceptable behaviors. you are about to begin disclosing private experiences and issues associated with a mental illness with a group of strangers. Establishing norms is part of creating group identity and alignment, which ultiamtely helps do develop trust. You know why people are there, you know what they say they are trying to do.

There are many powers greater than me. The gravity of the Earth, for example. But powers which can take away my personality defects for me? That's just plain idiotic, and you have presented ZERO evidence that this idea is useful or effective in treating alcoholism, yet you keep stating that it's a good idea.

I have already conceded that this concept of a higher power with the ability to take away personality defects would not be effective with an atheist. It is difficult to provide empirical evidence supporting the spiritual dimensions of cousneling. I have two text books with references and a few journal articles, There is a lot about the theory and the developement of it, especially in areas of family counseling, but I can't find ANYTHING supporting its value in a substance abuse recovery program

I don't really agree with that spect of the 12 step program presented here. The best it would do is provide a vehicle for a person to acknowledge his or her limitations. you can't see gravity with the naked eye for example but you can measure its effects on the world around you, likewise it may be difficult to see triggers that stimulate a desire for alcohol, but the need itself may help you identify what is at work.

That's good to hear. But it appears that your own indoctrination has left you incapable of looking at this issue objectively, given your bizarre and repeated assertions that without a shred of evidence

At least I have a better idea of how that indoctrination affets my understanding.

[/quote]

[Darth Wong]

The degree of control is central to my understanding of Alcohol dependence. it is more severe than a simple lack of discipline.

What does the word "control" mean for you? Your brain literally controls every action of your body, including the consumption of alcohol. It can only be some tortured non-literal definition of "control" which leads someone to say that some outside force is in control of his body, unless that person is a religious fanatic who believes there is an invisible man in the sky controlling him.

No but there is evidence in Darth Lucifers article that points out how difficult getting that evidence is in the first place. I;m not arguing that AA is better than any other treatment. I am saying it is recognized, if for no other reason than its everywhere. thats not an earth shaking announcement.

It's also of no use when discussing the question of whether AA is any good. If someone asks "is AA effective" and you respond "it is well known", that's not an answer.

Why start in an arbitrary place. They will have expectations, they will avhe heard stories we might as well start with what they expect and move from there.

Except that you have no evidence that this is actually effective, and if it is not effective, then you are effectively proselytizing for no gain.

because it helps a group establish a unified purpose, goals, and acceptable behaviors.

So does white supremacism. It's completely absurd to say that anything which establishes rules and commonality is necessarily beneficial.

you are about to begin disclosing private experiences and issues associated with a mental illness with a group of strangers. Establishing norms is part of creating group identity and alignment, which ultiamtely helps do develop trust. You know why people are there, you know what they say they are trying to do.

For the umpteenth time, you have no evidence that any of this actually helps.

I have already conceded that this concept of a higher power with the ability to take away personality defects would not be effective with an atheist. It is difficult to provide empirical evidence supporting the spiritual dimensions of cousneling. I have two text books with references and a few journal articles, There is a lot about the theory and the developement of it, especially in areas of family counseling, but I can't find ANYTHING supporting its value in a substance abuse recovery program.

See, that's the problem. If something is of highly questionable value, it is DANGEROUS to advocate its use as treatment. You don't know if there are harmful side effects, as compared to simply doing nothing. All of the attempts to establish the value of AA rely on self-selection: they point out that people who stick with the program are helped by it. But that's like the Jehovah's Witness "no divorce" fallacy, where they say that JWs never get divorced ... because they excommunicate anybody who gets a divorce. In the case of AA, if it doesn't work for you, you stop coming. Proving that it works by looking at what happens to the people who don't stop coming is an obvious selection bias, and that's how every pro-AA study works.

I don't really agree with that spect of the 12 step program presented here. The best it would do is provide a vehicle for a person to acknowledge his or her limitations. you can't see gravity with the naked eye for example but you can measure its effects on the world around you, likewise it may be difficult to see triggers that stimulate a desire for alcohol, but the need itself may help you identify what is at work.

And how would appealing to a "higher power" help to identify the triggers for problem behaviour?

That's good to hear. But it appears that your own indoctrination has left you incapable of looking at this issue objectively, given your bizarre and repeated assertions that without a shred of evidence

At least I have a better idea of how that indoctrination affets my understanding.

That's positive. Christians are so immersed in their culture that they often have trouble seeing how creepy their behaviours can look to an outsider. All of the ritualistic chanting (which you call "prayer" and "hymns"), for example, seems perfectly wonderful when you're inside, but downright creepy when you look at it from an outside perspective (or even from a Christian perspective toward an alien society which does something similar, eg- Islam). It's funny how every Christian-made movie portrays ritualistic chanting when they want to show how creepy some pagan cult is, but nobody bats an eyelash when Christians pray out loud or in groups, or sing their hymns.

[General Zod]

It's funny how every Christian-made movie portrays ritualistic chanting when they want to show how creepy some pagan cult is, but nobody bats an eyelash when Christians pray out loud or in groups, or sing their hymns.

Hilariously, the type of demonized pagan cultism you're talking about is almost exactly like any type of Catholic mass where the church-goers are repeating what their priest says in unison. I went to one once out of curiosity and it was downright disturbing.

[Losonti Tokash]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that there were AA-type programs for atheists, I distinctly remember discussing it with someone a couple years back.

Granted, they were a fundamentalist and threw it out there as an example of how atheists are supposedly trying to subvert Christianity, but it didn't seem all that unlikely a proposition.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that there were AA-type programs for atheists, I distinctly remember discussing it with someone a couple years back.

Granted, they were a fundamentalist and threw it out there as an example of how atheists are supposedly trying to subvert Christianity, but it didn't seem all that unlikely a proposition.

Idly deciding to see what I could find, I came up with these links:

http://www.americanatheist.org/spr97/T2/piety.html



http://www.smartrecovery.org/

http://www.moderation.org/

http://www.rational.org/recovery/

http://www.rational.org/recovery/

http://www.cfiwest.org/sos/index.htm

http://www.unhooked.com

[Darth Wong]

A lot of people have glommed onto the "12 step program" bit, but it's a lot like the "top 10 list". It's just a fashionable number. There's no reason why you couldn't have a 4-step program. The most notable characteristics of AA are its religious aspects and its proselytizing aspect.

[momochan]

A lot of people have glommed onto the "12 step program" bit, but it's a lot like the "top 10 list". It's just a fashionable number.

Yes, the number 12 just so happens to appear quite a bit in the bible, which was written when numerology was considered a science like astrology. Note that there were 12 followers of Jesus, and when one of them died, they quickly and quietly found another one.
Actually, in the bible, 12 occurs much more often than one would expect based on statistics -- demonstrating that the bible is a work of literature rather than a record of historical fact.
As far as non-religious self help groups, there is Secular Sobriety ( http://www.secularsobriety.org/ ). I can't vouch for them myself.

[Kitsune]

As far as non-religious self help groups, there is Secular Sobriety ( http://www.secularsobriety.org/ ). I can't vouch for them myself.

The problem is do any of them have over a 5% success rate....

Kind of like finding one which really works because I have a brother who very well may die from it soon.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I've always found it amusing that an experiment in the 1950s in which alcoholics were treated with LSD was far more effective than any AA or similar programs have developed to be.

[Darth Wong]

It's funny how every Christian-made movie portrays ritualistic chanting when they want to show how creepy some pagan cult is, but nobody bats an eyelash when Christians pray out loud or in groups, or sing their hymns.

Hilariously, the type of demonized pagan cultism you're talking about is almost exactly like any type of Catholic mass where the church-goers are repeating what their priest says in unison. I went to one once out of curiosity and it was downright disturbing.

Remember: if a large group ritualistically chants in unison under the sign of the cross, it's "spiritual" and "uplifting". If they do the exact same thing around a pentagram, it's a sign of pure evil.

[PeZook]

Remember: if a large group ritualistically chants in unison under the sign of the cross, it's "spiritual" and "uplifting". If they do the exact same thing around a pentagram, it's a sign of pure evil.

I went to a procession not long ago with my grandmother (she does that every year).

At the first station, two thousand people kneeled and started chanting a prayer. It sounded almost exactly like some creepy movie ritual where a bunch of robed guys want to sacrifice a virgin to the Blood God to help him build the Throne of Skulls.

The words were creepy, too. Something about us being lousy and worthless and stupid and having the Lord deliver us.

It ended before I could record it, though. Would've made for a great mindfuck to show some fundies.