Minimalism causes

[Junghalli]

To be so active implies it is either like Mustafar an under extreme tidal interaction (no evidence of that)

According to the Wookiepedia article it has two moons which are mentioned to have vaapads living on them, implying they're big enough to hold onto dense oxygen atmospheres of their own (unless vaapads can live in vacuum). Those would be pretty freaking big moons, I'd say strong tidal interaction is a definite possibility.

On another note, this particular stupid brainbug isn't limited to Star Wars. In the TNG pilot episode Encounter at Farpoint the Federation was interested in that crappy desert planet because of its abundant geothermal energy.

[Wyrm]

A final point on this "energy exporter" business: We have companies now that bill themselves as "energy companies". Not only do they typically generate electricity (ie, they're utilities) but they also sell fuels. It seems in this case that "energy" is being used as a catch-all for "stuff that makes things go", whether that be electricity or fuel. So we cannot eliminate fuel from Sarapin's portfolio.

Batteries are, of course, energy in stored form. Furthermore, it may be that Sarapin sells not batteries, but the energy inside the batteries — the batteries aren't your property; you just use the energy inside it. Sarapin collects them after they're used up for reuse, and deposits and surcharges in case of damage or improper use.

[apocolypse]

Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns, Star Wars: Force Commander, and also Coruscant and the Core Worlds (though I may be mistaken on the last count) describes the hydrothermal Saudi Arabia of the Core Worlds. In my own notes and such for eventual essays and stories, I intend to retcon Sarapin as the most important hypermatter refinery and storage complex and transit shipping hub in the Core Worlds.

I don't think it's in CatCW. Or if it is, it's part of another planet's description since there's no specific entry for it.

[PainRack]

You sure? Have you forgotten KJA and his "Daala's four ISDs are a massive threat to the New Republic"? An honest misunderstanding of scale is Zahn's 200-ship strong Katana fleet and Darksaber's fleet of 157 Star Destroyers being a massive threat to the New Republic. Still way inadequate, but at least they're trying to be big.

Hack writing is Daala's four ISDs, and more blatantly, the Corellian Trilogy. In that, not only can the New Republic only send four ships to a crisis involving a major trade hub, but it also has to beg for them from a remote world. That's not an honest misunderstanding, that's just really bad writing.

It wasn't Daala 4 ISDs. It was her 4 ISDs, Suncrusher and the Death Star prototype.

Darksabre is an adequate example of this, although not the worse KJA has done(Witness his Young Jedi Knight series where Admiral Ackbar rallies a Mon Cal cruiser, some frigates and corvettes to resuce Yavin IV).

Lastly,. the Correllian Crisis itself had Luke saying that he believed the New Republic "vulnerability" was fake, with the political intention of drawing in Bakuran support, and this is "supported" by Task Force A.

Unfortunately, other timelines have run with the idea that the New Fleet and rennovation of the fleet to standardised designs downed more than 80% of the fleet and made the Republic fleet prostrate before the Correllian Crisis, this when the novel itself says that a force could had been assembled, albeit one that would had left other outposts/worlds undefended.

[PainRack]

The best retcon is that Sarapin was the major provider of energy for Coruscant AFTER the CIS had withdrawn from the Republic. And even here, the energy "collector" referred to was probably the hypermatter and other refining capacities used to provide domestic power. SW equivalent of PNG used for home cooking perhaps.

[Darth Hoth]

It wasn't Daala 4 ISDs. It was her 4 ISDs, Suncrusher and the Death Star prototype.

Actually, the terrible threat to the entire New Republic that was on the loose in the galaxy was Daala with her three ISDs and no battlemoons or technobabble superweapons to speak of, Crusher being stolen by wanked emo Jedi and mini-Death Star being left in the Maw. And as for the prototype... well, it was not considered more of a threat than that the NR sent an ultra-minimalist task force to deal with it.

Darksabre is an adequate example of this, although not the worse KJA has done(Witness his Young Jedi Knight series where Admiral Ackbar rallies a Mon Cal cruiser, some frigates and corvettes to resuce Yavin IV).

Was that from the arc portraying the "Shadow Academy" of emo Dark Jedi wannabes as a major threat, or the one where the Diversity Alliance fringe terrorist group could mount a fleet of modified freighters equivalent to half the NR's hyperspace-capable military?

Lastly,. the Correllian Crisis itself had Luke saying that he believed the New Republic "vulnerability" was fake, with the political intention of drawing in Bakuran support, and this is "supported" by Task Force A.

Which is eminently retarded in and of itself. You actually risk a very prominent Core system to tie a reluctant fringe Outer Rim planet with half a billion inhabitants closer to your government? That is the equivalent of agitating the USA so you can ally with Sweden.

[Lonestar]

Of the minimalism-plagued EU, how much of the minimalism do you feel is caused by an honest misunderstanding of the scale, and how much of it do you feel is caused by lazy "OMG THE GALAXY IS IN PERIL" hack writing?

I wrote such an article on the subject.

My theory? The vast majority of the EU was written after Desert Storm, virtually none of the EU authors are former military or serious historians, and so they've grown to associate "high tech" with "low numbers".

[darthscott]

I would say it is about 50/50 when it comes to minimalism. I do think some authors misunderstand the scope of the Star Wars Galaxy. However, some of these numbers are just so incredibly stupid that these authors have to be doing it on purpose. I know I am definitely on the high side of the scale as far as “realism” goes, but I think too many of these numbers go against common sense. Maybe it is because of my science/engineering background, but I just can not believe some of the numbers conferred onto the populations, technology, militaries of the Star Wars Galaxy.

My picture of the Star Wars Galaxy is one of a very ancient space faring civilization that has the resources and technology to do just about anything. I wish I could one day see armies of trillions and space navies of hundred thousands/millions of capital ships wagging war over millions of appropriately populated planets. However, as I said in another post, I think the way it is going present day Earth will soon eclipse the Star Wars Galaxy in population and military technology.

Of the minimalism-plagued EU, how much of the minimalism do you feel is caused by an honest misunderstanding of the scale, and how much of it do you feel is caused by lazy "OMG THE GALAXY IS IN PERIL" hack writing?

I wrote such an article on the subject.

My theory? The vast majority of the EU was written after Desert Storm, virtually none of the EU authors are former military or serious historians, and so they've grown to associate "high tech" with "low numbers".

As a person in the military and one who has read quite a bit of military history, I could not agree more.

[Ender]

"what's this?" you say? This is a bit of interesting nerdom out there - too involved to be something just to tweak the nose of nerds, to educated to be childlike innocenct combining with google and fanboyishness.

100 watt laser cannons on TIE fighters.


So it could be worse

[Desdinova]

Honestly, I've always felt that the prime cause of minimalism was the movies themselves. Now, having read none of the novelizations for the original trilogy, what I took away from the films as a kid was:

-The ENTIRE Alliance fleet was present at Endor, and in the shots preceding the actual battle, it looked as though they only had a few starships.

-Yavin IV was the ONLY Alliance base at the time of ANH, and all it could muster was 30 fighters.

-Hoth was THE home base of the Rebels in ESB, and the fleet seen at the end represents the sum total of their surviving assets.

-Darth Vader only commands a few Star Destroyers, not thousands or hundreds.

-The actions of a few people--not billions or trillions of soldiers or thousands of ships, a few people--literally change the entire outcome of the war.

I'm very well aware of the implications of the true scale of the SW universe, having read a great deal of commentary since then and considered a bit more deeply about the 'between the lines' aspects of the movies (for instance, the industrial juggernaut needed to build two Death Stars). But I think the fairly limited scale demonstrated in the movies (Death Stars notwithstanding) really does have an impact on many of these minimalistic ideas.

[Junghalli]

"what's this?" you say? This is a bit of interesting nerdom out there - too involved to be something just to tweak the nose of nerds, to educated to be childlike innocenct combining with google and fanboyishness.

100 watt laser cannons on TIE fighters.


So it could be worse

Oh it's that site. I've seen it before.

[Desdinova]

lmao. I just glanced at his "maps" page. Hilarious.

[Darth Ruinus]

Wow, that SW map is way off. Way way off. In fact, I simply can't be reading it right, but, is it only a few hundred light years across?

And I am no Trek expert, but, for some reason I doubt that the UFP has that much control over their home quadrant. I thought they only controlled a portion of it like everyone else there?

[Darth Hoth]

My theory? The vast majority of the EU was written after Desert Storm, virtually none of the EU authors are former military or serious historians, and so they've grown to associate "high tech" with "low numbers".

Technically, that is not entirely incorrect. Armies in Star Wars would be much smaller than real life equivalents, with their superior range, precision and firepower. However, that is more than set off by the scale of the setting itself. And of course, it is not due to some TEH UBERDUPER L33T M'a'n'd'o training, but the principles of mobility and firepower that are observable in our own military history.

[Lonestar]

Technically, that is not entirely incorrect. Armies in Star Wars would be much smaller than real life equivalents, with their superior range, precision and firepower.

Not really, at least, not if they want to run sucessful occupations. While the army units versus other army units themselves can be small, If they have overwhelming air superiority, occupying a planet and rooting out the enemy is a different matter altogather.

[Darth Hoth]

Technically, that is not entirely incorrect. Armies in Star Wars would be much smaller than real life equivalents, with their superior range, precision and firepower.

Not really, at least, not if they want to run sucessful occupations. While the army units versus other army units themselves can be small, If they have overwhelming air superiority, occupying a planet and rooting out the enemy is a different matter altogather.

Occupation is entirely another matter; it was my understanding that we were discussing military campaigns in the traditional sense. Which of course reflects the current situation: Army engagements can be handled by small, high technology forces, while occupation requires manpower on the ground. The explanation that I have favoured for minimalist Army figures from WEG is that they list only the federal Imperial forces, while local Vichy France style flunkies would do most of the actual groundwork.

Of course, this all assumes that a Sector has substantial internal unrest; this does not generally appear to be the case. One should, as I pointed out earlier, remember that the Imperial military as of the film era is essentially at its peacetime deployment.

[Lonestar]

Occupation is entirely another matter; it was my understanding that we were discussing military campaigns in the traditional sense. Which of course reflects the current situation: Army engagements can be handled by small, high technology forces, while occupation requires manpower on the ground. The explanation that I have favoured for minimalist Army figures from WEG is that they list only the federal Imperial forces, while local Vichy France style flunkies would do most of the actual groundwork.

Of course, this all assumes that a Sector has substantial internal unrest; this does not generally appear to be the case. One should, as I pointed out earlier, remember that the Imperial military as of the film era is essentially at its peacetime deployment.

Occupation is part of military campaigns "in the traditional sense" you dolt.

For that matter, even if we were to assume we're talking about strict military vs. military units, in order to justify minimal ground force you'd have to have overwhelming air(and space) superiority. Something that the Republic did not have during the Clone Wars.

As for areas without unrest, you need 20,000 soldiers for every 1 million civilians(as a RAND study indicated) in order to have successful occupations. Again, the numbers provided in the EU don't match up to the requirements.

[Darth Hoth]

Occupation is part of military campaigns "in the traditional sense" you dolt.

For that matter, even if we were to assume we're talking about strict military vs. military units, in order to justify minimal ground force you'd have to have overwhelming air(and space) superiority. Something that the Republic did not have during the Clone Wars.

As for areas without unrest, you need 20,000 soldiers for every 1 million civilians(as a RAND study indicated) in order to have successful occupations. Again, the numbers provided in the EU don't match up to the requirements.

Fair enough; I expressed myself poorly. What I meant to describe was a strictly military versus military engagement.

Planetary assault would by logic demand space supremacy; launching a full-scaled landing operation while still contesting space is stupid at best. There being examples of such happening does not change this; such cases would be highly exceptional, perhaps depending on quickly seizing a particular objective and thus performed under severe time constraints, or else the result of outright incompetence. These operations would at best be raids, but not full invasions.

Generally, orbital fire support of the magnitude and precision that the Empire has demonstrated would easily render most traditional ground combat obsolete, leaving only shielded or very heavily defended areas to be picked off piecemeal by the Army.

Perhaps I was unclear: I do not believe that most Imperial planets consider themselves occupied. Rather, they are functioning member states of the Empire, and the military forces they might see are less an occupation army and more of the local military bases. These garrisons are evidently not guarding or suppressing the local population with their minimal numbers.

[PainRack]

Actually, the terrible threat to the entire New Republic that was on the loose in the galaxy was Daala with her three ISDs and no battlemoons or technobabble superweapons to speak of, Crusher being stolen by wanked emo Jedi and mini-Death Star being left in the Maw. And as for the prototype... well, it was not considered more of a threat than that the NR sent an ultra-minimalist task force to deal with it.

Nevertheless, Daala threat was not because of her warships, but rather, her possession of the Maw installation and any other "secrets" that installation might had held.

Was that from the arc portraying the "Shadow Academy" of emo Dark Jedi wannabes as a major threat, or the one where the Diversity Alliance fringe terrorist group could mount a fleet of modified freighters equivalent to half the NR's hyperspace-capable military?

Oops. Wrong series. I meant the Anakin Solo series, whatever the name was.

But then again, the Young Jedi Knight is an exercise in bad reasoning. Its so bad that it even fails KJA own history, with Qoorl, Jacen/Jaina missing out on Daala assault on Yavin IV, much less the successful occupation of Yavin IV after Tagge blockade.

Which is eminently retarded in and of itself. You actually risk a very prominent Core system to tie a reluctant fringe Outer Rim planet with half a billion inhabitants closer to your government? That is the equivalent of agitating the USA so you can ally with Sweden.

Why? We saw that they were "successful" in convincing Bakura to join and commit their military forces. If the gambit had failed, presumably, other Republic assets would had been committed.

What was miminalist was that after discovering the existence of the Centrepoint Weapon, the Republic didn't send in fleet after fleet of warships to secure the system or commit additional "offscreen" assets.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Of course, this all assumes that a Sector has substantial internal unrest; this does not generally appear to be the case. One should, as I pointed out earlier, remember that the Imperial military as of the film era is essentially at its peacetime deployment.

Not where and when we see it, tard. That renders most of this "peacetime basing" red herring irrelevant.

[Darth Hoth]

Of course, this all assumes that a Sector has substantial internal unrest; this does not generally appear to be the case. One should, as I pointed out earlier, remember that the Imperial military as of the film era is essentially at its peacetime deployment.

Not where and when we see it, tard. That renders most of this "peacetime basing" red herring irrelevant.

Your pardon; I was discussing overall galactic troop deployment, as the topic appears to have at least partially moved onto garrisons and occupation.

[Junghalli]

Wow, that SW map is way off. Way way off. In fact, I simply can't be reading it right, but, is it only a few hundred light years across?

And I am no Trek expert, but, for some reason I doubt that the UFP has that much control over their home quadrant. I thought they only controlled a portion of it like everyone else there?

According to him they also have a fleet that's about 80 times the size of the Romulan and Klingon Empires, mostly made up of unmanned drone warships.

You should read his Star Wars technical pages. Apparently the main guns on ISDs are comparable to modern experimental military antimissile lasers in terms of power. TIE fighters are armed with 100 watt lasers (well, I guess that's consistent with the fact he thinks they're actually solar powered). Meanwhile he thinks Trek ships have yottawatt weaponry.

I'm pretty sure it's just a troll page.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I thought Daala was a threat sorta in the same way that anyone who had three Los Angeles Class submarines would be a threat. She's not going to defeat the NR, but she could strike at any number of lightly protected systems without warning.

Look at what general Cronus did during Daala's leadership of the reunified empire, with his hit-and-run attacks with a fleet of older Venerators.

[Maxentius]

I thought Daala was a threat sorta in the same way that anyone who had three Los Angeles Class submarines would be a threat. She's not going to defeat the NR, but she could strike at any number of lightly protected systems without warning.

Look at what general Cronus did during Daala's leadership of the reunified empire, with his hit-and-run attacks with a fleet of older Venerators.

I would agree with you, except that in the books, she's presented as less of an "Aw fuck, this is going to be a bitch to deal with" threat and more of a "ZOMG THE REPUBLIC IS IN EPIKK DANGAR" kind of deal.

This was before anyone was aware of the DS-Prototype's existence, as far as I recall, to boot.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I would agree with you, except that in the books, she's presented as less of an "Aw fuck, this is going to be a bitch to deal with" threat and more of a "ZOMG THE REPUBLIC IS IN EPIKK DANGAR" kind of deal.

You may be right, its probably been almost a decade since I read them, but the feeling I got from it was the same vibe I got from the War Room in 'Red October' where they're talking about how they've got a Madman on the loose and don't know where he's going. Sure she could do SOME damage, but she can't be everywhere at once.

This was before anyone was aware of the DS-Prototype's existence, as far as I recall, to boot.

I'm pretty sure that given the intel came from Han, the NR leadership found out about Daala and the DS prototype at the same time.