Trying to solve the long-term nuclear waste storage problem

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Dominus Atheos
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Trying to solve the long-term nuclear waste storage problem

Post by Dominus Atheos »

I :luv: Ars Technica
The increased awareness of the potential consequences of humanity's carbon emissions has generated intense interest in renewable energy sources. One nonrenewable technology that has also received significant attention is nuclear power. Although nuclear isn't truly renewable—there are finite sources of usable uranium—it has the significant advantage of being emissions-free once the construction and fuel isolation steps are completed. Although nuclear power does carry significant baggage in terms of safety and proliferation concerns, a significant barrier to its adoption remains the long-term storage of nuclear waste, some of which will remain a health threat for millions of years. Now, in a Policy Forum published in this week's Science, two former members of the US Geological Survey argue it's time to start addressing that issue by opening a long-term storage facility to pilot studies.

The problem the authors address is unlike anything humanity has ever faced. Some of the waste from nuclear plants will retain harmful levels of radioactivity for tens of thousands to millions of years. Beyond basic issues of securing and identifying it in a way that will persist even if our current culture doesn't, we will also have to encase it in a way that will be stable on geologic time scales. In the US, a proposed solution to the storage problem was to use areas in the desert Southwest where the water table remains hundreds of meters below the surface of geologically consolidated and stable mountains.

According to the authors, the trouble started with the selection of the site for the US storage facility. Initial legislation called for the full evaluation of three potential sites before choosing a final one; instead, five years later, Congress short-circuited the process and selected Yucca Mountain in Nevada. This action, according to the authors, obscured the fact that Yucca Mountain was on the list of finalists for a variety of well-documented technical reasons.

From there, the article discusses how the inherent uncertainties of science and engineering have left the public and legal system with a poor picture of our understanding of long-term storage. Science is poorly equipped to provide the certainty that everyone would like to see for a project of this nature, and engineering faces clear limits when predicting the behavior of structures over periods that are longer than human civilization has existed. "There is unlikely to be complete closure," the authors write. "Nor will honest disagreements among scientists and engineers regarding some YM [Yucca Mountain] issues likely ever cease."

Despite the uncertainties, the authors argue that there are very real reasons to start using Yucca Mountain: 60,000 metric tons of waste, currently stored in 72 sites, "many adjacent to metropolitan areas and all next to rivers, lakes, or the ocean." It's easy to default to inertia while waiting for greater certainty about Yucca Mountain or hoping something better comes along, but the authors argue that the current storage system creates far too much risk for this to be an acceptable path.

The paper argues that storage in the facilities at Yucca Mountain is not irreversible; if problems arise, the waste could be temporarily removed, or adjustments to the structural properties could be made. In fact, the authors argue, experience with pilot programs may be the best way to start reducing some of the outstanding uncertainties that are making the current debate so difficult. Without this knowledge, we may never be able to refine long-term models of waste storage.

What is perhaps most striking about the discussion is that the message of the authors focuses on helping the public understand that science is actually not a method of establishing certainty—"There need be no embarrassment to admit to the limitations of our explanatory and predictive capabilities," they write. Getting the public to realize that science can make the very best predictions possible despite residual uncertainties remains a significant challenge for nearly every case where science has to be translated to policy.
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Post by Shinova »

They could just start using breeder reactors and reprocessing technologies already in use and not have to really worry about long-term nuclear waste, but why they don't just boggles.
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Post by Shinova »

That and they don't mention that there's a lot of uranium in the world.
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Post by Junghalli »

Shinova wrote:They could just start using breeder reactors and reprocessing technologies already in use and not have to really worry about long-term nuclear waste, but why they don't just boggles.
IIRC it's something about how the reprocessing could be used to create material for nuclear bombs.
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Post by Shinova »

Junghalli wrote:
Shinova wrote:They could just start using breeder reactors and reprocessing technologies already in use and not have to really worry about long-term nuclear waste, but why they don't just boggles.
IIRC it's something about how the reprocessing could be used to create material for nuclear bombs.
What I don't understand is why that's such a problem. Material alone doesn't make the bomb.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

There are reprocessing methods which do not lead to bomb-grade material at the end of the cycle. UREX, MOX recycling and the still-experimental pyroprocessing method are three of them.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Shinova wrote:
Junghalli wrote:
Shinova wrote:They could just start using breeder reactors and reprocessing technologies already in use and not have to really worry about long-term nuclear waste, but why they don't just boggles.
IIRC it's something about how the reprocessing could be used to create material for nuclear bombs.
What I don't understand is why that's such a problem. Material alone doesn't make the bomb.
What I don't understand is why the hell does anyone give a fuck about nuclear material in a country with an atomic weapon stockpile numbering in the thousands of devices.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The really sad thing about nuclear waste is that if you ground it up into fine powder and spread it through the upper atmosphere, it would be less dangerous than the chemical shit we currently pump into the atmosphere from our other industries. But noooo, people can't understand that. They freak out about nuclear waste while simultaneously snickering that people who worry about agricultural run-off and coral reef destruction are a bunch of left-wing liberal "tree hugger" pussies.
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Post by MichaelFerrariF1 »

Darth Wong wrote:The really sad thing about nuclear waste is that if you ground it up into fine powder and spread it through the upper atmosphere, it would be less dangerous than the chemical shit we currently pump into the atmosphere from our other industries. But noooo, people can't understand that. They freak out about nuclear waste while simultaneously snickering that people who worry about agricultural run-off and coral reef destruction are a bunch of left-wing liberal "tree hugger" pussies.
Good luck telling that to a population that thinks that a nuclear reactor can blow up like an atom bomb.
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Post by MichaelFerrariF1 »

As a side note, isn't the coal ash from "clean burning" coal more radioactive than nuclear waste?
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Post by Twoyboy »

MichaelFerrariF1 wrote:As a side note, isn't the coal ash from "clean burning" coal more radioactive than nuclear waste?
Yes, per unit of energy, coal fired power stations have a greater mass of radioactive material waste than nuclear power station do. They just spread it over a greater area.

I don't have my books to reference here with me at work, but unless someone can elaborate in the mean time, I'll fill in the numbers when I get home.
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Post by Winston Blake »

Another problem with the 'long term nuclear waste storage problem' is tossing out numbers like 'it'll be dangerous for millions of years'. That assumes that we can't implement any technology in that million years that would make it safe.

Subcritical reactors could boil down whatever's left after reprocessing until only short-lived isotopes remain.
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Post by MichaelFerrariF1 »

I heard somewhere that scientists working on microbes that can consume nuclear waste. That seems like a waste of potential fuel to me though, since would could reprocess that waste.
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Post by Lusankya »

Not to mention the fact that nuclear waste is generally solid (save really for Radon, which only has a half-life of 3.8 days), so you can just put it in a lead case and dump it in the middle of the desert. It´s not like a coal plant, where they just store the toxic by-products in your lungs.

Hell, I be fine keeping most nuclear waste underneath my bed. The Alpha particles would be stopped by my pyjamas, the beta particles would be stopped by my mattress, and the gamma rays would be stopped by the lead case.
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Post by Twoyboy »

Twoyboy wrote:Yes, per unit of energy, coal fired power stations have a greater mass of radioactive material waste than nuclear power station do. They just spread it over a greater area.

I don't have my books to reference here with me at work, but unless someone can elaborate in the mean time, I'll fill in the numbers when I get home.
Bah, stupid not being able to find all my books since we moved house. Apologies, but here's a link to "Scientific American" (not the most sacred bastion of scientific reporting, I know) explaining it anyway.
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Post by CaptainZoidberg »

We've already found the solution to the long-term nuclear waste storage problem.

Yucca Mountain. According to the Environmental Impact Statement, less than 10 people would be killed by the facility over its entire life. Far more people die from mining the coal or from respiratory problems caused by the smog coal produces.

http://www.ymp.gov/documents/feis_2/sum ... tm#S.5.1.8
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Winston Blake wrote:Another problem with the 'long term nuclear waste storage problem' is tossing out numbers like 'it'll be dangerous for millions of years'. That assumes that we can't implement any technology in that million years that would make it safe.
That doesn’t even matter, that kind of argument is just nonsense based on the insane idea that someone the shit has to emit zero radioactivity to be safe. In fact all that radioactivity was already in the ground to start with, we’ve just concentrated it and made release its radiation faster, but after more like 50,000 years the waste will drop back down to emitting radiation at a rate similar to billions of tons of natural uranium/thorium/radon already in the ground trying to kill us. Heck if it was not for all that radioactivity constantly being emitted inside the earth from radiaoctivte elements the planet would have already cooled off into a solid ball of iron and silicon, which would have no volcanic activity and support little to no life.
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Post by Junghalli »

Winston Blake wrote:Another problem with the 'long term nuclear waste storage problem' is tossing out numbers like 'it'll be dangerous for millions of years'. That assumes that we can't implement any technology in that million years that would make it safe.
By 2100 or so we could probably just take the stuff up in the space elevator and toss it off the top into space. Maybe boost it into the sun or out of the solar system if we want to be extra conscientious.
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Post by Shinova »

Junghalli wrote:
Winston Blake wrote:Another problem with the 'long term nuclear waste storage problem' is tossing out numbers like 'it'll be dangerous for millions of years'. That assumes that we can't implement any technology in that million years that would make it safe.
By 2100 or so we could probably just take the stuff up in the space elevator and toss it off the top into space. Maybe boost it into the sun or out of the solar system if we want to be extra conscientious.
Into the sun? We'll get people saying it's going to cause the sun to explode. :P
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Post by MichaelFerrariF1 »

Junghalli wrote:By 2100 or so we could probably just take the stuff up in the space elevator and toss it off the top into space. Maybe boost it into the sun or out of the solar system if we want to be extra conscientious.
Environmentalists already protest nuclear spacecraft. They've been at it a long time. My Intro to ASE professor, Dr. Hans Mark, worked on Pioneers 10 and 11 and took a lot of crap for their nuclear power generators.

They'd be even more up in arms about sending nuclear waste into space. Tell me, what exactly is there in space to pollute?

I guess they're worried that sending nuclear waste into the sun will create Nuclear Man.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Well, to be fair to that particular line of protest, several Soviet satellites with nuclear reactors did crash back to earth causing contamination on land (most fell in the ocean), while others leaked hoards radioactive coolant into orbit which is currently a significant hazard to spacecraft. So far western craft have only used radiothermal generators, but while those aren’t as bad as reactors the fuel is still dangerous if it hits land.

Spaceflight is not safe or particularly reliable, and even ignoring the utterly colossal cost of lobbing stuff into the sun (the moon would be way cheaper and just as good) it would be an unacceptable safety risk. A large rocket exploding on the launch pad with say 20 tons of high level radioactive waste onboard would probably render the whole surrounding space base unusable.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

There are REEEEEEEALLY good reasons why we should use Yucca Mountain and not somewhere else. Its tectonically stable, seismically innactive, above the flood line, and its already been a nuclear test site. Besides that, the damn place is already built and ready to go, we just have to start shipping the stuff.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Or, we can just reprocess, as without reprocessing the whole nuclear use cycle is of marginal value.
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Post by Zixinus »

The worst part, is that some of what we call "nuclear waste" is actually material that are practically begged for in nuclear medicine departments. I'm afraid I read it somewhere (nuclearspace forums I think) and can't back up this claim.

Re-starting the reprocessing facilities in the USA would also help out NASA as it is running out of Plutonium 238 for its space and Mars probes. The next Mars lander will be the last gig and then there will be no plutonium.

France is already fine with reprocessing. It is energy independent nation. But the greens do not want to even hear about that. They want to have their glorious wind and solar farms and point to a couple of plants here and there to prove it, not realising that allot of their renewable energy is more in the stage of trial while nuclear power plants are in their fourth generation. Renewables have their place, where they work great but not so well outside of that.

There are no issues from the technical perspective, merely from the political perspective of establishing infrastructure and funds (and understanding, but hey, this is the same country where they still are politically trying to push creationism).
I heard somewhere that scientists working on microbes that can consume nuclear waste.
I find that ridiculous. Nuclear waste isn't dangerous because of its chemical properties but because of its nuclear properties. It doesn't matter what chemical environment it is in, a unstable set of atoms will continue going into more stable states and bleeding radioactive energy while doing so.
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Post by Darth Wong »

People who bleat about multi-million year lifetimes don't seem to understand that when the half-life is really long, the actual rate of radioactive decay must be slow, ie- it's not actually that radioactive. The material with much shorter half-lives is actually much more dangerous.
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