Calling a Spade a Spade: American Prison Industry = Slavery!

[Darth Wong]

In contrast, if prisoners weren't used for labor, a profit wasn't made, and it was more expensive for the general populace to maintain prisons, then people would start to whine about how much money they have to waste, and inevitably the harsh laws would get revoked.

There is no net profit for the state here. There is a profit for the corporations who are taking advantage of the situation, but it's a net-loss for the state. Your argument falls flat on its face.

Even if there is no conspiracy, more people are getting locked up because of prison labor.

Bullshit. You can't establish that they're being locked up for prison labour if there is no conspiracy.

[Darth Wong]

Wong, the entire work force will never be purely skilled technical labor.

So? Do you realize how fucking stupid and unreliable the average criminal is? I'm not saying that everyone has to be doctor, a lawyer, a scientist, an engineer, etc.

Let's be blunt about this: while I agree that the War on Drugs has been a failure, this does not in any way mitigate the stupidity of people who pollute their bodies with narcotics, doubly so when they already have two strikes and they're so goddamned stupid that they can't stop engaging in this self-destructive activity even when they're facing massive jail terms. These people are unreliable imbeciles. You're not going to use them in construction because nobody wants convicts that close to residential areas, you're not going to use them in lots of jobs. You're going to use them in the same sort of jobs which are currently being exported to third world countries; these are not jobs which would otherwise be paying $10/hr to American workers.

[CaptainZoidberg]

There is no net profit for the state here. There is a profit for the corporations who are taking advantage of the situation, but it's a net-loss for the state. Your argument falls flat on its face.

The point isn't that anyone is making money, it's that the amount the average taxpayer has to spend on prisons is reduced, and therefore there isn't as strong of a financial incentive for the average American to vote against harsh drug laws.

Bullshit. You can't establish that they're being locked up for prison labour if there is no conspiracy.

We could look at much the average American saves on taxes due to prison labor, and then look at how Americans have typically dealt with tax increases of that size.

If Americans had a negative reaction, and voted against those tax increases, then we can conclude that prison labor is enabling the US to lock up more people.

[Mr Bean]

I wonder why no one has pointed out the ecnomics of the situation.
By all estimates it costs roughly 85$ a day to keep one medium security inmate in prison since we feed, cloth and give him free medical care. Meaning for one year of prison time we are pay 31k a head to keep him locked up.


Anyone want to explain to me how that's a "cost savings", Prisoners may not be paid much for their work but the simple act of keeping them imprisoned and giving them medical care costs quite a bit.


Or in other words, this consipracy falls flat on it's face not because of number of people required. But the shear ecnomics of the situation. If we work 2000 hours a year out of the prisoners(And we don't) we are paying them(in benefits) the equivalent of 15.5$ a hour. By no stretch of the mind is prison labor cheap labor

[Mr Bean]

I mean for fuck sake, did not of you acutally think to look to see how much it cost taxpayers to lock someone up before going off on this tangent about how much of a benefit it is? Prisons are not net pluses to society, they are money holes which we must dump money into least we have rapists and murderss running loose on the streets. It costs us roughly 20k a year for a low security inmate, 31k for a medium security and close to 45k for a high or death row in-mate.

[Soontir C'boath]

I wonder why no one has pointed out the economics of the situation.
By all estimates it costs roughly 85$ a day to keep one medium security inmate in prison since we feed, cloth and give him free medical care. Meaning for one year of prison time we are pay 31k a head to keep him locked up.

I wonder if the medical care includes needing to go for cost intensive things such as surgery. I can't help but picture someone committing grand larceny just so he can get the life saving surgery for cancer and the like. "I rather serve the five years in prison and live out the rest of my life, than to die in two, your honor."

[Wyrm]

The point isn't that anyone is making money, it's that the amount the average taxpayer has to spend on prisons is reduced, and therefore there isn't as strong of a financial incentive for the average American to vote against harsh drug laws.

And here I thought that the incentive for voting against harsh drug laws is because drug abuse is a medical problem. Silly me.

Harsh drug laws is the infantile response of Americans wanting to be Tough On Crime, child, regardless of its actual utility. This includes the financial incentives (or lack thereof).

If Americans had a negative reaction, and voted against those tax increases, then we can conclude that prison labor is enabling the US to lock up more people.

That's nice. Wanna justify that with some hard numbers?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I wonder why no one has pointed out the economics of the situation.
By all estimates it costs roughly 85$ a day to keep one medium security inmate in prison since we feed, cloth and give him free medical care. Meaning for one year of prison time we are pay 31k a head to keep him locked up.

I wonder if the medical care includes needing to go for cost intensive things such as surgery. I can't help but picture someone committing grand larceny just so he can get the life saving surgery for cancer and the like. "I rather serve the five years in prison and live out the rest of my life, than to die in two, your honor."

As a practical matter, this wouldn't work, even though in theory it would, because the waiting times for medical procedures like that in prison can be quite long, as in, Soviet Union bad.

[Darth Wong]

BTW, this has been bugging me for a while:

It is believed that more than half of the 623,000 inmates in municipal or county jails are innocent of the crimes they are accused of.

More than half? Since the article conspicuously fails to elaborate, does anyone know where this claim might originate from?

[Broomstick]

I wonder why no one has pointed out the economics of the situation.
By all estimates it costs roughly 85$ a day to keep one medium security inmate in prison since we feed, cloth and give him free medical care. Meaning for one year of prison time we are pay 31k a head to keep him locked up.

I wonder if the medical care includes needing to go for cost intensive things such as surgery.

Yes, it does. The weird thing is that a convicted prisoner has more rights to medical care than a non-incarcerated citizen. Prisoners are provided with any life-saving therapy required, not only surgery and cancer therapy but things like dialysis and even organ transplants.

[CaptainZoidberg]

And here I thought that the incentive for voting against harsh drug laws is because drug abuse is a medical problem. Silly me.

That's important, but couldn't someone argue against harsh drug laws because of the unnecessary cost that they burden the average American with?

Harsh drug laws is the infantile response of Americans wanting to be Tough On Crime, child, regardless of its actual utility. This includes the financial incentives (or lack thereof).

I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm just saying that the War on Drugs / Tough on Crime attitude might not get as far in America if there wasn't prison labor to pad the costs of detaining inmates.

That's nice. Wanna justify that with some hard numbers?

Well, for the prison, if an inmate's labor who earns $1 an hour replaces a minimum wage employee who earns $6ish dollars an hour (it really depends on the states, Massachusetts is $8 an hour), then the prison makes $5 an hour for every prisoner.

If they work full-time (40 hours a week times 50 weeks = 2000 hours a year), then they save $10,000 dollars a year per inmate.

According to Mr. Bean, it takes 30k a year to house a low-security inmate, so we could reasonably say that prison labor cuts of 1/3 the cost of an inmate.

Since the US spends over 200 billion dollars a year on jailing drug offenders ( http://webb.senate.gov/pdf/prisonfactsheet4.html ), and 54.4% of inmates are drug offenders ( http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t657.pdf ), the US saves about 32 billion dollars a year by using prison labor. That's about $107 for the average American - a sizable amount of money.

If I made any mistakes in my math or reasoning, please don't hesitate to tell me.

[Mr Bean]

Or... here's an idea CaptainZoidberg, you could get one mexican to do the job for 5$ an hour, not have to pay for his medical care.

Note my 31k figure is the estimate for a single inmate with no medical care at all Even a single heath issue is enough to jack the cost up anywhere from one thousand to eighty thousand dollars a year. Plus you can't work them if they get ill.

Unlike.. a Mexican where you just replace him with another! And it does not have to be Mexicans there's Philippineon's at 5$ plus import costs, or Serbs, or South American's, African's or Asians.

I won't aurgue against using prison labor(Locking them in a hole and throwing away the key is counter-productive) but the issue is, you can get dozens of other types of workers far cheaper. Locking people up for the sole purpose of making them be cheap labor is moronic since they cost anywhere from one hundred to three hundred percent more costly than immigrants.

[Wyrm]

That's important, but couldn't someone argue against harsh drug laws because of the unnecessary cost that they burden the average American with?

Yes, but fear of the all-powerful roving drug gang with guns is a powerful motivator to the contrary. How can you put a price on saftey?!

I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm just saying that the War on Drugs / Tough on Crime attitude might not get as far in America if there wasn't prison labor to pad the costs of detaining inmates.

You have yet to show that the amount of gain the state gets for an average prisoner's work even begins to pay for his upkeep.

That's nice. Wanna justify that with some hard numbers?

Well, for the prison, if an inmate's labor who earns $1 an hour replaces a minimum wage employee who earns $6ish dollars an hour (it really depends on the states, Massachusetts is $8 an hour), then the prison makes $5 an hour for every prisoner.

If they work full-time (40 hours a week times 50 weeks = 2000 hours a year), then they save $10,000 dollars a year per inmate.

According to Mr. Bean, it takes 30k a year to house a low-security inmate, so we could reasonably say that prison labor cuts of 1/3 the cost of an inmate.

Only if the prisoners are fully employed. You'd have to give an estimate of how much an average prisoner works. Remember, you still have to guard a chain gang, with an expensive and well-trained corrections officer. There are only limited slots available for in-prison labor (like making licence plates). They're not going to be fully-employed. Most of a prisoner's time is spent... well, in his cell. Sitting around.

And it assumes that the prisoner really gets $1/hr of work. Prove that it isn't more.

Since the US spends over 200 billion dollars a year on jailing drug offenders ( http://webb.senate.gov/pdf/prisonfactsheet4.html ), and 54.4% of inmates are drug offenders ( http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t657.pdf ), the US saves about 32 billion dollars a year by using prison labor. That's about $107 for the average American - a sizable amount of money.

You're assuming that all of that cost goes to housing the prisoner. What about paying the guards? What about prison upkeep? What about building more prisons for the growing prison population to stay in?

[Oni Koneko Damien]

That's about $107 for the average American - a sizable amount of money.

*chokes on his dinner*

A sizable amount of money? Honestly, how old are you? I work a minimum wage job and can make that money in two days of work.

107 dollars a year is a fucking drop in the bucket for anyone who actually has to support themselves.

[Darth Wong]

That's important, but couldn't someone argue against harsh drug laws because of the unnecessary cost that they burden the average American with?

Yes, and this cost to society includes not only the cost of imprisoning, feeding, and medical care for the inmate, but also:

- The cost of the state-appointed lawyer to defend him
- The cost of the judge to try his case
- The cost of the salaries of the jurors who would otherwise be working
- The cost of the police who have to investigate and arrest him
- The cost of the doing this whole cycle several times in order to get a long sentence
- The cost of repeating the legal process for appeals
- The violent collateral damage inflicted by the illicit drug trade.
- The opportunity cost of the lost potential productivity of all these incarcerated individuals

I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm just saying that the War on Drugs / Tough on Crime attitude might not get as far in America if there wasn't prison labor to pad the costs of detaining inmates.

Insignificant next to the total costs of the so-called war on drugs.

Well, for the prison, if an inmate's labor who earns $1 an hour replaces a minimum wage employee who earns $6ish dollars an hour (it really depends on the states, Massachusetts is $8 an hour), then the prison makes $5 an hour for every prisoner.

Except that it doesn't replace an American minimum-wage employee. It replaces a Mexican minimum-wage employee. A criminal is a shitty employee, and should not be compared to a law-abiding American citizen.

If they work full-time (40 hours a week times 50 weeks = 2000 hours a year), then they save $10,000 dollars a year per inmate.

According to Mr. Bean, it takes 30k a year to house a low-security inmate, so we could reasonably say that prison labor cuts of 1/3 the cost of an inmate.

Except that your cost assumes they would otherwise hire American citizens to do this work, and they would not. They would otherwise hire Mexicans at a small fraction of that cost.

Since the US spends over 200 billion dollars a year on jailing drug offenders ( http://webb.senate.gov/pdf/prisonfactsheet4.html ), and 54.4% of inmates are drug offenders ( http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t657.pdf ), the US saves about 32 billion dollars a year by using prison labor.

Cut that figure by at least half, possibly more. We're probably talking about something more like $10 billion or less.

That's about $107 for the average American - a sizable amount of money.

I spent $85 on lunch for my family today. On the way home, I spent $75 more on cheap clothes for my kids, which they will probably wear out in a few months. And then I filled up my gas tank for $65. And you're saying that $107 spread over an entire year is a sizable amount of money? Even leaving aside the massive inflation in that figure, it works out to 29 cents per day. Do you really think that the people who are terrified of criminals and vote for "three strikes and you're out" legislation would say "Oh wait, if it would cost me an extra 29 cents a day, I would rather let those criminals run loose in the streets to kill and rape my children"?

If I made any mistakes in my math or reasoning, please don't hesitate to tell me.

It's all mistakes.

[CaptainZoidberg]

*chokes on his dinner*

A sizable amount of money? Honestly, how old are you? I work a minimum wage job and can make that money in two days of work.

17, I just graduated High School and will go to college this fall.

I work at a fast food place (pretty close to minimum wage, of course), and two days of work doesn't seem to be trivial.

107 dollars a year is a fucking drop in the bucket for anyone who actually has to support themselves.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[General Zod]

17, I just graduated High School and will go to college this fall.

I work at a fast food place (pretty close to minimum wage, of course), and two days of work doesn't seem to be trivial.

Here's some perspective for you. Someone in the middle-class income bracket can easily make $107 a day. Someone who's in the upper-class, like an overpaid lawyer? $107 an hour.

[Plekhanov]

This irrational conspiracy-theory bullshit has no more place here than it does anywhere else. Is there a shred of evidence that there is actually a secret conspiracy to imprison all of these inmates for the sake of getting a source of low-quality unskilled labour, rather than the misguided attempt at stamping out immoral activity that it appears to be?

How about all the voters who supported these "get tough on crime" and "three strikes" policies? Are they part of the conspiracy too? All of this can be explained without the conspiracy, so why resort to such a hypothesis?

I don't know about this slave labour stuff but it's no secret that the prison industry and prison guard unions in the US contribute to the campaigns of politicians pushing for longer prison terms and increase the range of offences people get imprisoned for. In just the same way that teachers unions push for more education funding, farmers groups for farm subsidies...

[CaptainZoidberg]

Yes, and this cost to society includes not only the cost of imprisoning, feeding, and medical care for the inmate, but also:

- The cost of the state-appointed lawyer to defend him
- The cost of the judge to try his case
- The cost of the salaries of the jurors who would otherwise be working
- The cost of the police who have to investigate and arrest him
- The cost of the doing this whole cycle several times in order to get a long sentence
- The cost of repeating the legal process for appeals
- The violent collateral damage inflicted by the illicit drug trade.
- The opportunity cost of the lost potential productivity of all these incarcerated individuals

All together its over 200 billion dollars a year, according to Webb. 10 billion dollars from prison labor, while significant, probably wouldn't be enough to persuade anyone to change criminal sentencing laws.

Insignificant next to the total costs of the so-called war on drugs.

Okay, agreed.

Except that it doesn't replace an American minimum-wage employee. It replaces a Mexican minimum-wage employee. A criminal is a shitty employee, and should not be compared to a law-abiding American citizen.

Who they wouldn't pay minimum wage?

Except that your cost assumes they would otherwise hire American citizens to do this work, and they would not. They would otherwise hire Mexicans at a small fraction of that cost.

Who they'd pay less than minimum wage?

I spent $85 on lunch for my family today. On the way home, I spent $75 more on cheap clothes for my kids, which they will probably wear out in a few months. And then I filled up my gas tank for $65. And you're saying that $107 spread over an entire year is a sizable amount of money? Even leaving aside the massive inflation in that figure, it works out to 29 cents per day. Do you really think that the people who are terrified of criminals and vote for "three strikes and you're out" legislation would say "Oh wait, if it would cost me an extra 29 cents a day, I would rather let those criminals run loose in the streets to kill and rape my children"?

I suppose not...

It's all mistakes.

Wow, you guys are really good at this. In High School I did competitive public policy debate, and I never got completely annihilated like this in just a few rounds.

[Wanderer]

Wow, you guys are really good at this. In High School I did competitive public policy debate, and I never got completely annihilated like this in just a few rounds.

American High Schools are shitty education centers. In College I learned just how unprepared I was for College as my High School Education was utterly shitty despite me taking a lot of hard classes in High School.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Wow, you guys are really good at this. In High School I did competitive public policy debate, and I never got completely annihilated like this in just a few rounds.

American High Schools are shitty education centers. In College I learned just how unprepared I was for College as my High School Education was utterly shitty despite me taking a lot of hard classes in High School.

'Hard' in High School is defined essentially by one metric: the sheer volume of homework assigned. Needless to say, this kills most of the truly smart kids and rewards only the ones who don't mind excessively long hours of work.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I agree wholeheartedly.

...then why are you acting like a mere one hundred dollars is going to make the slightest bit of difference to the average person? I just spent about 400 to travel to Ohio for a week-long seminar, and that was going out of my way to get the cheapest shit available. Every other week or so, I send around 300 USD to a friend to supplement her own income and help keep her head out of water until she can get herself out of a shitty apartment lease.

'Hard' in High School is defined essentially by one metric: the sheer volume of homework assigned. Needless to say, this kills most of the truly smart kids and rewards only the ones who don't mind excessively long hours of work.

Ironically, this is excellent preparation for most of their futures. They'll be living lives of doing dull, repetitive work for long periods of time.

[CaptainZoidberg]

I agree wholeheartedly.

...then why are you acting like a mere one hundred dollars is going to make the slightest bit of difference to the average person? I just spent about 400 to travel to Ohio for a week-long seminar, and that was going out of my way to get the cheapest shit available. Every other week or so, I send around 300 USD to a friend to supplement her own income and help keep her head out of water until she can get herself out of a shitty apartment lease.

Saying "I agree Wholeheartedly" was a concession that you were right.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Part of the problem is that in some jurisdictions, particularly the state that Ein lives in, there is so much institutional corruption, that it is more or less as he describes. Here in Yosemite we have a judge magistrate who is married to the prosecutor, all kinds of entrapment, and illegal search proceedure slips by his bench when it involves FINES. This includes the police's favorite tactic of tailgating motorists at night with their high beams on, and fining people for either Speeding up, or illegal parking (if they pull over to get the ranger to pass), or unsafe driving, if they slow down?

Three years ago, I was fined for "unsafe driving" when a ROCK fell and broke my windshield, causing me to lose control of my vehicle. No they did not accept that such had occurred.

[Darth Wong]

Except that your cost assumes they would otherwise hire American citizens to do this work, and they would not. They would otherwise hire Mexicans at a small fraction of that cost.

Who they'd pay less than minimum wage?

What makes you think that the American legal minimum wage applies in Mexico?

Wow, you guys are really good at this. In High School I did competitive public policy debate, and I never got completely annihilated like this in just a few rounds.

I don't know if we're that good, but it certainly helps to have the superior position. In debate teams, they try to teach you that a really good debater can win no matter which side of an argument he takes. But in reality, a debate is like a battle: it really helps to have the terrain advantage. It may be possible to win without it, but only by trickery (which basically means "lying" in a debate) or opponent incompetence.