Dargos wrote:Are you really bitching about the lack of non-lethal force in this incident?
I'm not bitching, just wondering. He would've been justified in shooting the perp even without the electrified fence ; After all, stomping on a toddler pretty much means you intend to kill him. I just wondered about the taser because I though the child was inside the car,and it seemed that shooting at the guy in that position would run the risk of killing the child as well. But, the second article clarifies everything.
It's havekoff who was bitching the cop actually shot that animal dead, when he could've "easily hit him in an arm or leg".
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Justified kill.
Are you seriously telling me that no one was able to pull of the bastard I mean, it should really take 3 guys to get him off. Though I doubt that anyone would purposely not try to save a baby's life.
Easily shoot the arm or leg? What happens when they miss or it goes through said arm or leg and hits the kid instead? I don't know why anyone would even defend him or the use of lethal force.
Shooting someone dead that is in the process of murdering someone is not reason enough for lethal force?
Brotherhood of the Monkey @( !.! )@ To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. ~Steve Prefontaine Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
Schuyler Colfax wrote:Justified kill.
Are you seriously telling me that no one was able to pull of the bastard I mean, it should really take 3 guys to get him off. Though I doubt that anyone would purposely not try to save a baby's life.
When someone is cranked something (unknown at this point in this incident) three guys may not be enough. Hell, back in the day it took me and four other guys to subdue an average sized joe who flipped his lid. He wasn't even on anything, just really really pissed the fuck off. Secondly, as far as I read, only an elderly couple tried to get him to stop, and he just shrugged them off.
If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.
Schuyler Colfax wrote:Justified kill.
Are you seriously telling me that no one was able to pull of the bastard I mean, it should really take 3 guys to get him off. Though I doubt that anyone would purposely not try to save a baby's life.
An enraged human is very difficult to subdue with bare hands ; Sometimes three of four people have to hold a viciously resisting guy just to pin him down. If he was high on something nasty like meth, it's no surprise that even several people would be unable to restrain him.
Pretty much the only solution then is to taser him, shoot him or cave his skull in with a tire iron. I'm not surprised that nobody tried the last option: if the guy was big, strong and high on drugs, he may chose to beat you to death instead of the kid with your own weapon. People who are high and agressive are very intimidating, even to a small crowd.
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Surlethe wrote:Probably the mother's boyfriend or second (third? fourth?) husband. I understand that this sort of thing is far more likely to happen when the baby is not genetically related to the father.
In one of Carl Sagans books, I think it was Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors, he mentions that children in foster homes and such are 100 times more likely to be sexually or violently abused. I have never been able to find a good source for that number though.
Daly. M, Wilson, M(1988) Homicide. New York, Aldine de Gruyter
They used evolution to predict rates of homicide child abuse etc, then started combing the literature. You can probably still find the book in print, though if you just want a good summary, I suggest you pick up
Wilson, DS. (2007) Evolution for Everyone. New York, Bantam Dell
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Just a quick interjection here fellas... police are generally not trained to "shoot to kill", the terminology is "stop the threat". Which in alot of the cases will be a fatal shooting. But that doesn't mean police shoot for the arm or legs either. Shoot center mass until the target is no longer a threat, (or two to the body and one the head). My point being that the police don't really set out to kill everyone.
"War.... it's faaaaaantastic!" <--- Hot Shots:Part Duex "Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't care how fucking crazy they are!"~ Seth from Dusk Till Dawn
|BotM|Justice League's Lethal Protector
Definitely a justifiable homicide. That animal needed to be put down with the tools and training the cops had on hand, which means center-mass hits with handgun fire. It's sad the child wasn't saved in time, but there was no way to guarantee a quick stop without killing the fucktard outright. Add in the huge disparity of strength likely enhanced by drugs between the victim and the attacker, and no jury would convict the officers of any crime based on the cold hard facts alone.
And DftS, I've known about the terminology of 'Shoot to Stop' for a while. It's just that death tends to be a side effect of the most effective techniques available with a handgun.
That cop is definitely a hero. Now if only the monsters who torture animals would die too.
"A word of advice: next time you post, try not to inadvertently reveal why you've had no success with real women." Darth Wong to Bubble Boy
"I see you do not understand objectivity," said Tom Carder, a fundie fucknut to Darth Wong
I normally read these sorts of blood curdling stories and get outraged, vaguely nauseated, pissed off, etc.
But it's a distanced reaction in *most* cases.
This one has really left me fucked up, though.
The baby's wounds are to the extent that it has to be identified by DNA?
And on another quick note regarding gun vs taser, while I'm not widely experienced with all police aviation units, the ones I have seen generally don't carry full equipment belts while flying. So if that's the case with this unit, even disregarding the fence getting in the way, it's possible the only thing he had was a gun.
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)
"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
Frank Hipper wrote:I normally read these sorts of blood curdling stories and get outraged, vaguely nauseated, pissed off, etc.
But it's a distanced reaction in *most* cases.
This one has really left me fucked up, though.
The baby's wounds are to the extent that it has to be identified by DNA?
It's not that surprising, sadly. If you've ever held a baby, you'll know how fragile its little body is. It's a terrifying feeling, to feel the fragility of their little limbs and know that simply yanking on them would probably cause massive injuries. Any adult who used even a single full-strength kick or punch to the head of a baby would probably render the child visually unrecognizable.
I believe there is an instinct which prevents the application of such force, but animals like this clearly do not possess it.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
I really hope that this cop doesn't beat himself up for failing to save the toddler. Rushing out of a landed helicopter and shooting some petty thug attacking a helpless child sounds like something out of a bad-ass cop movie. Sadly, this just means that a child's life is over.
Frank Hipper wrote:I normally read these sorts of blood curdling stories and get outraged, vaguely nauseated, pissed off, etc.
But it's a distanced reaction in *most* cases.
This one has really left me fucked up, though.
The baby's wounds are to the extent that it has to be identified by DNA?
It's not that surprising, sadly. If you've ever held a baby, you'll know how fragile its little body is. It's a terrifying feeling, to feel the fragility of their little limbs and know that simply yanking on them would probably cause massive injuries. Any adult who used even a single full-strength kick or punch to the head of a baby would probably render the child visually unrecognizable.
I believe there is an instinct which prevents the application of such force, but animals like this clearly do not possess it.
Hate to say it Mike, but they know it. They just dont care... Lion killing the cubs...
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
What kind of behavior is usual, for other primates (lions being mammals and all is fine, but I wonder about our closer relatives)?
Are male great apes disposed toward protecting the offspring of other males, or do they follow the kill-bring-on-estrus-and-bang-out-one-of-their-own pattern?
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
Kanastrous wrote:What kind of behavior is usual, for other primates (lions being mammals and all is fine, but I wonder about our closer relatives)?
Are male great apes disposed toward protecting the offspring of other males, or do they follow the kill-bring-on-estrus-and-bang-out-one-of-their-own pattern?
They will often engage in violence against the offspring of other males. In the great apes, females get around this by mating with most of the males... such that no male can be sure that a female's offspring are not his. Chimps do this. Gorillas are aggressive mate guarders and infidelity is low
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Darth Wong wrote:27 year old criminal with a car seat in the back of his oversized 4-door pickup truck. Let me guess: he's either the father or the mother's boyfriend, and he's an asshole with anger issues who went berserk when the baby in the back seat wouldn't stop crying.
I've been through Turlock a time or two, and your assumption is most likely correct. That and the entire town smells like cow shit. You pass through it on the freeway trying not to breathe through your nose.
Heh, I live about an hour away from Turlock, and my girlfriend's grandparents live there. . .it's. . .a shit hole, to say the least. [/b]
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." (Seneca the Younger, 5 BC - 65 AD)
Surlethe wrote:Probably the mother's boyfriend or second (third? fourth?) husband. I understand that this sort of thing is far more likely to happen when the baby is not genetically related to the father.
In one of Carl Sagans books, I think it was Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors, he mentions that children in foster homes and such are 100 times more likely to be sexually or violently abused. I have never been able to find a good source for that number though.
Daly. M, Wilson, M(1988) Homicide. New York, Aldine de Gruyter
They used evolution to predict rates of homicide child abuse etc, then started combing the literature. You can probably still find the book in print, though if you just want a good summary, I suggest you pick up
Wilson, DS. (2007) Evolution for Everyone. New York, Bantam Dell
The actual number from my behavioral biology class was a bit over 40 times more likely for non-related children (stepchildren, foster children, etc.) to be abused than related children. And even if there's not abuse, they're also much more likely to get tossed out of the house the moment they turn 18 to fend for themselves, get left out of inheritances, and so on.
Also, note to everyone who's ever talked about "shoot to wound." Bullets are very small things and are actually quite hard to get to hit something. Limbs are also usually quite small. That's why you're supposed to aim for the center of mass - you're more likely to actually hit it when you need to.
DPDarkPrimus is my boyfriend!
SDNW4 Nation: The Refuge And, on Nova Terra, Al-Stan the Totally and Completely Honest and Legitimate Weapons Dealer and Used Starship Salesman slept on a bed made of money, with a blaster under his pillow and his sombrero pulled over his face. This is to say, he slept very well indeed.
Eyewitnesses tried to stop the man, who swung and slammed the child into the asphalt behind his parked four-door Toyota pickup
That is just sick and disgusting.
"I don't believe in man made global warming because God promised to never again destroy the earth with water. He sent the rainbow as a sign."
- Sean Hannity Forums user Avi
"And BTW the concept of carbon based life is only a hypothesis based on the abiogensis theory, and there is no clear evidence for it."
-Mazen707 informing me about the facts on carbon-based life.
This asshole was beating a baby, so, from the cop's perspective, every second counted. It would be a mistake to try and run up to taser him, wrestle him off, etc., because he's got to stop the threat and stop it immediately. Shooting that piece of shit dead was the best thing he could have done. He obviously did society a big favor as well.
Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:And DftS, I've known about the terminology of 'Shoot to Stop' for a while. It's just that death tends to be a side effect of the most effective techniques available with a handgun.
quite true, it just seemed that everyone here was going on about how the officers first intent in shooting was to kill the guy.
"War.... it's faaaaaantastic!" <--- Hot Shots:Part Duex "Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't care how fucking crazy they are!"~ Seth from Dusk Till Dawn
|BotM|Justice League's Lethal Protector
