Anakin Doesn't Betray Mace And The Jedi

[Galvatron]

They just have to testify that they are working for a Darth Sidious.

Why would that matter? It already appears to be common knowledge that Dooku was a Sith Lord by ROTS.

[Isolder74]

They just have to testify that they are working for a Darth Sidious.

Why would that matter? It already appears to be common knowledge that Dooku was a Sith Lord by ROTS.

True but having a Darth Sidious that you can now handily show to be Palpatine makes for a very good case against the chancellor. The Seperatist have no need of knowing that the assosiation exists. That actually makes the case even worse for Palpatine.

Shows he was knowing decieving BOTH sides and almost all the bloodshed in the was is basically hi fault. Not a very good thing for public image at all.

Remember one of the things that made his saying the Jedi tried to assassinate him was the collaborative testimony of Anakin and the altered film of what happened. In this case he wouldn't have either of those things anymore. With a full version of what happens he is now resisting arrest.

[TC Pilot]

They don't have to know that Sidious = Palpatine idiot.

Ah, my apologies. I made the rather unfounded assumption that rather than blithering inanely on an irrelevant point, you actually have some substance to your post.

They just have to testify that they are working for a Darth Sidious.

Which is totally irrelevant, since there's nothing to connect "Darth Sidious" to Palpatine.

And where does this ridiculous notion that there's going to be some kind of trial come from? The Separatists are not going to testify to anyone about the Palpatine-Sidious connection; not unless Palpatine is miraculously captured and the Empire taken over by the Jedi.

And captured by the Jedi stupid.

And what possible benefit could that have? Why should anyone believe the confessions of enemy leaders (who have an obvious benefit from slandering the head of state of their enemy) forced out by another group of enemies (who have already attempted to assassinate Palpatine), assuming the Jedi would even be in a position to make their case to the public? It would be like Osama bin Laden announcing Bush planned the 9/11 attacks after being captured and tortured by Nazis.

Remember one of the things that made his saying the Jedi tried to assassinate him was the collaborative testimony of Anakin and the altered film of what happened.

Really? So in between slaughtering the Jedi at the Temple and massacring the Seperatists at Mustafar, Anakin testified before the Senate?

Keep in mind Palpatine had "been presenting evidence all afternoon" to the Senate.

[TC Pilot]

Ah, just noticed this part...

One more thing, with out him having control of his office(assuming he can order 66 anywhere which is implied) How can he modify his office's security video to make it look like he was attacked by the Jedi meaning that the Jedi would have quick access to a film of what actually happened in the office.

He didn't modify any security video. He had an audio recording of Windu threatening him and him calling for help.

They have transcripts of a Sidious talking to the Separatists.

No, they don't.

They have tape showing a lightsaber wielding Palpatine attacking the Jedi.

No, they don't.

Since Palps has been calling the Separatists from his office

What makes you think he was that stupid and careless?

they should be able to then get a location to track down them and get their testimony too.

Why? The last transmission Sidious sent, the Seperatists were on Utapau.

This is, of course, under the rather ludicrous assumption the Jedi could find access to any hypothetical documentation of his crimes, access it, decode it, copy it, and escape, all while the Jedi Temple is being assaulted and holding Palpatine's office against any attempts to kill them.

[K. A. Pital]

Here's how the conversation is really going to go:

Palpatine: The Jedi attempted to kill me.

Jedi: Actually...

*clonetroopers draw their blasters and mow the Jedi down. The Senate bursts into applause*

I second that. The Jedi have no case to present before the Senate. In case they had, they would've done it regardless of Darth Vader's actions on Mustafar.

The Separatists are of no use; like anyone's going to listen to them in the Republic.

[Isolder74]

Ah, just noticed this part...

One more thing, with out him having control of his office(assuming he can order 66 anywhere which is implied) How can he modify his office's security video to make it look like he was attacked by the Jedi meaning that the Jedi would have quick access to a film of what actually happened in the office.

He didn't modify any security video. He had an audio recording of Windu threatening him and him calling for help.

Video Audio

Does it make any difference. The point is the only thing he has against the Jedi is only part of what actually happened. If he is forced to escape from his office then there is no way he can set that up anymore. With out the Anakin Betrayal the creation of the Empire and the Demonification of the Jedi becomes very hard for him to pull off.

If Anakin does not turn then the Jedi now can show the WHOLE DAMN TAPE rather then the tiny bits Palpatine wants people to see. I also find it very hard to believe that the office is only monitered during a war with only audio.

You are now saying that the Jedi Temple has better security then the office of the Chanceller.

He had time to have Palpatine come to the Temple and report that he's done. Anakin had time to fly over and sweet talk his wife. You are saying he couldn't make a short stop to record a statement for the Senate?

[Faqa]

Anakin had time to fly over and sweet talk his wife. You are saying he couldn't make a short stop to record a statement for the Senate?

It's possible, but neither the film nor novelization makes any mention of it. What's more, according to Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader, Anakin Skywalker was presumed to be a casualty of the battle at the Temple(in the novelization, Obi-Wan, presumes the same thing when he hears about the slaughter before reaching Coruscant).

What this suggests to me is that Anakin dropped from public radar after the incident in Palpy's office. This does not leave room for recording public statements for the Senate.

If Anakin does not turn then the Jedi now can show the WHOLE DAMN TAPE rather then the tiny bits Palpatine wants people to see. I also find it very hard to believe that the office is only monitered during a war with only audio.

It's Palpatine's office. Do you REALLY think there are any recording devices in there that he doesn't specifically *want* there? And the novelization mentions only an audio recorder in there, one that Palpatine fakes a cry for help into before running a lightsaber into it. There would be no tape to show.

[TC Pilot]

If Anakin does not turn then the Jedi now can show the WHOLE DAMN TAPE rather then the tiny bits Palpatine wants people to see. I also find it very hard to believe that the office is only monitered during a war with only audio.

The fact you have no idea what you're talking about is rather obvious at this point. Palpatine cut off the recording right before his "It's treason" line (in the novelization, I believe he says "That will do").

[Dooey Jo]

In the film, Palpatine says that he is the Senate, before he even pulls out his lightsabre. They would probably not take too kindly to that kind of talk.

[Rogue 9]

If the scenario happens as outlined in the OP then the Jedi don't have much of a case to put before the Senate, but they do have Yoda, Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker, and Obi-Wan Kenobi, the four of which should easily be able to kill Sidious if they all go looking for him, as opposed to Yoda doing so by himself. Are the Jedi royally fucked? Yeah, but the Empire never rises and the Sith are destroyed. Under the circumstances, I'd call that a fairly good trade.

[FOG3]

If Anakin does not turn then the Jedi now can show the WHOLE DAMN TAPE rather then the tiny bits Palpatine wants people to see. I also find it very hard to believe that the office is only monitered during a war with only audio.

The fact you have no idea what you're talking about is rather obvious at this point. Palpatine cut off the recording right before his "It's treason" line (in the novelization, I believe he says "That will do").

You're one to talk. The novelization played the card you're trying but not the movie which canonically overrides it, it doesn't involve any audiorecorder stunt but there's nothing Palpy can use in the scene anyway.

I'll transcribe it directly from the movie given you seem to pretend it doesn't exist.

*Jedi enter office*

Palpatine: Master Windu. I take it General Grievous has been destroyed then. I must say you're here sooner then expected.

Mace: In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Repulbic... *draws lightsaber* you're under arrest, Chancellor.

Palpatine (in an aggressive voice): Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?

Mace: The senate will decide your fate.

Palpatine (Sidious voice): I am the senate.

Mace: Not yet.

*Palpatine stands. throws out lightsaber with noticeable noise.*

Palpatine: It's treason then.

*Palptine ignites lightsaber and attacks with a scream.*

There's got to be some sort of security system that'd pick that up as Isolder says. That's damning stuff on its own, and you're Palpatine was filibustering all afternoon doesn't help your position.

The Jedi used contacts in the Clone Wars and there's a slew of hackers that can get into the Holonetwork, the fact you'd default to they can't get the word out when the airtight alibi is been shot all to hell is showing desperation on your part. Palpatine has to have a story to sell the whole thing on, and I'm a closet Mando-badass isn't going to cut it. The mere fact he effectively admits to taking on Jedi Masters means he's in a weak position to deny he is the Sith Lord.

This bombshell properly delivered would turn the "Petition of two thousand" into the secession of 2 million.

The rather blindingly obvious flaw in this argument is that this is exactly the same problem Palpatine faced in ROTS, which the novelization swiftly points out is that Palpatine's bodyguards intervened. You know, that whole legion of clone troopers that destroyed the Jedi Temple and wiped out about a thousand Jedi.

The 501st Legion is now Palpatine's bodyguards, instead of Anakin's Clonetroopers? Uh-huh.

So only Jedi can use lightsabers?

Pretty much. Against a Jedi Master, hell yes.

So only lightsabers can cause cauterized wounds? So "Joe Citizen" is going to know what a lightsaber wound looks like? So Palpatine is going to let the public see the Jedi Masters' corpses? So the Jedi are going to be able to present their argument?

So you can slash people with a blaster now? First one's stabbed, second looks like a slash but isn't clear, and third one is most certainly a slash. Yeah cauterized slash wound, whatever could that be caused by?

The Jedi Order has nothing after Mace attempted to murder Palpatine. Their numbers are down to a handful, their public image is wrecked, their status is gone, and any ability they may have had to actually present their argument (they don't have one, since they attempted to assassinate beloved Chancellor Palpaitne on nothing but hearsay) just evaporated.

The "Petition of Two Thousand" is canon need I remind you Mr. He has an infallible cult of personality. Need I also remind you the same novel you seem to think trumps the movie makes it clear the War Heroes Anakin and Obi-wan were well loved and probably more then the politician.

Of course it bloody well did. Without him Mace would have run him through. Palpatine's plan for the last several years relied on Anakin siding with him, or were you asleep while watching ROTS?

Wow, just wow. You're one of those nuts that thinks Palpatine was completely prescient of every little detail.

You think he was instructing Maul to leave the little blond haired kid alone, because he foresaw everything don't you? Same novel you effectively are trying to claim trumps the movie also has Mace evaluating the Shatterpoints and Anakin has full power at that moment according to the Force through Mace.

Yes, because the SUPREME CHANCELLOR of the Republic is going to be totally defenseless and exposed to assassination attempts. It's not like he has red guards or clone troopers to protect him.

I see the concept of an assassination attempt as opposed to a frontal assault is completely beyond you. Nevermind the consequences in terms of people knowing about a frontal assault type thing.

[TC Pilot]

You're one to talk. The novelization played the card you're trying but not the movie which canonically overrides it, it doesn't involve any audiorecorder stunt but there's nothing Palpy can use in the scene anyway.

Are you really so dense that you missed the fact Isolder used the supposed existence of an audiorecording/videorecording to bolster the Jedi's case?

There's got to be some sort of security system that'd pick that up as Isolder says.

Why? The idea that there would be standard security cameras or audio recorders in Palpatine's office is asinine, and flies in the face of Palpatine's use of an audio recorder in the novelization.

and you're Palpatine was filibustering all afternoon doesn't help your position.

"Filibustering"? How did you manage to misconstrue (or you're just a dishonest dipshit. Stupid or a liar, take your pick) "He's been presenting evidence all afternoon" into "filibustering"?

The Jedi used contacts in the Clone Wars and there's a slew of hackers that can get into the Holonetwork, the fact you'd default to they can't get the word out when the airtight alibi is been shot all to hell is showing desperation on your part.

Get the word out? Why the fuck should anyone believe the Jedi, especially since they don't have any evidence (how many times have I said this already?) to substantiate a single shred of their claims.

Palpatine has to have a story to sell the whole thing on, and I'm a closet Mando-badass isn't going to cut it. The mere fact he effectively admits to taking on Jedi Masters means he's in a weak position to deny he is the Sith Lord.

Good Lord you're a complete dumbass. Your pathetic strawman is even more laughable since you seemingly decided to completely ignore the point I made in my last response to you ( You know, the "blindingly obvious flaw" part), which is that this is the exact same "problem" he had to face in the actual plot. He claimed his bodyguards intervened in the novelization (and don't try pulling some "the movies override it" bullshit). The alibi worked in ROTS, and it'll work in this scenario.

This bombshell properly delivered would turn the "Petition of two thousand" into the secession of 2 million.

Except it can't possibly be "properly delivered."

The 501st Legion is now Palpatine's bodyguards, instead of Anakin's Clonetroopers? Uh-huh.

If you have a problem with canon, take it up with the author. And don't dodge the point next time.

So you can slash people with a blaster now? First one's stabbed, second looks like a slash but isn't clear, and third one is most certainly a slash. Yeah cauterized slash wound, whatever could that be caused by?

Can you even read? "So Palpatine is going to let the public see the Jedi Masters' corpses?"

Idiot.

The "Petition of Two Thousand" is canon need I remind you Mr. He has an infallible cult of personality.

I never said it wasn't, retard. Or did you miss the part where Palpatine swatted the petition aside, rounded up the dissenting Senators, and declared himself Emperor with the "thunderous" acclamation of the Senate?

Need I also remind you the same novel you seem to think trumps the movie makes it clear the War Heroes Anakin and Obi-wan were well loved and probably more then the politician.

"Dooku was to the Separatists what Palpatine was to the Republic: the center of gravity binding together a spiral galaxy of special interests.

Wow, just wow. You're one of those nuts that thinks Palpatine was completely prescient of every little detail.

Your delusional and irrelevant rantings are of no interest to me.

[EDIT] - Feel free to respond to the other half of my post you ignored. Or am I to assume that's your tacit admission that you're just spewing utter bullshit at this point?

[Isolder74]

TC.

If the recording only exsists up until just after the fight starts and Palpatine only used the part after so it is treason then, we still have the entire rest of the s=conversation to damn Palpatine.

"I AM THE Senate" will not go over well with the Senate at all. Even a good part of his supermajority would abandon him with just that statement.

Wake up my fine friend. You simply can't ignore that if the entire conversation from the point the Jedi arrive in his office til your cut off point would be real hard for Palpatine to talk away.

Someone just needs to call out no contest and Palps, barring closing down the Senate is done.

[TC Pilot]

If the recording only exsists up until just after the fight starts and Palpatine only used the part after so it is treason then, we still have the entire rest of the s=conversation to damn Palpatine.

An entirely different conversation than the one in the movie.

Think for a change.

[Isolder74]

If the recording only exsists up until just after the fight starts and Palpatine only used the part after so it is treason then, we still have the entire rest of the s=conversation to damn Palpatine.

An entirely different conversation than the one in the movie.

Think for a change.

You can do the same. Did we both watch the same movie? All the Jedi have to do is play him saying I AM THE SENATE and Palps is in so much trouble.

[TC Pilot]

Except he never said "I am the Senate" in the novelization. Stop talking about things you know nothing about.

[Isolder74]

Except he never said "I am the Senate" in the novelization. Stop talking about things you know nothing about.

He does in the movie so shut the HELL UP!

[Ziggy Stardust]

Except he never said "I am the Senate" in the novelization. Stop talking about things you know nothing about.

He never said he did say that in the novelization, dipshit. Read his fucking post. He was quite clear that in the MOVIE Sidious says "I am the Senate." Which overrides the novel.

[TC Pilot]

He does in the movie so shut the HELL UP!

Except the audio recorder isn't in the movie.

[Havok]

He does in the movie so shut the HELL UP!

Except the audio recorder isn't in the movie.

So because you can't see it then it isn't there? The novel establishes the recording device, what is disputed is what is recorded on it. The movie trumps the novel, therefor the recording device exists per the novel, and what was said in the movie is what was recorded. Why is this so hard.

Oh and if there is NO recording device in the movie, what was the evidence that Palpatine presenting to the Senate?

[Isolder74]

He does in the movie so shut the HELL UP!

Except the audio recorder isn't in the movie.

So because you can't see it then it isn't there? The novel establishes the recording device, what is disputed is what is recorded on it. The movie trumps the novel, therefor the recording device exists per the novel, and what was said in the movie is what was recorded. Why is this so hard.

Oh and if there is NO recording device in the movie, what was the evidence that Palpatine presenting to the Senate?

Indeed Palpatine's own testimony isn't good enough.

[NecronLord]

For crying out loud. Look, I'm all for the notion that Palpatine's deception exposed would be pretty cool (indeed, I'm writing for a fanfic on that premise right now) but people seriously claiming that jedi bodies with slash marks are inexplicable are not thinking the idea through properly.

To explain it, all Palpatine has to say is "Master Fisto had an attack of concience, or perhaps only went with the assassins in order to undermine them. He nobly bought me the time to escape with his life! He was a true soldier of the Republic! These vile traitors murdered one of their own!"

[TC Pilot]

So because you can't see it then it isn't there? The novel establishes the recording device, what is disputed is what is recorded on it. The movie trumps the novel, therefor the recording device exists per the novel, and what was said in the movie is what was recorded. Why is this so hard.

True, Palpatine may still have had a recorder on hand. But consider the context in which the recorder was used in the novel. The entire conversation Palpatine has with the Jedi Masters is staged on Palpatine's end to make the Jedi look even more belligerent and him appear to be an innocent victim, all as proof of the Jedi Order's attempted coup.

Why then, when he is in complete control of the recorder (he personally activated and "deactivated" it), would he use it when he's going to say such undiplomatic statements as "I am the Senate"?

Oh and if there is NO recording device in the movie, what was the evidence that Palpatine presenting to the Senate?

It's never stated, but it's what Padme says to Organa (and saying the thirty-second conversation counts as "presenting evidence all afternoon" is really stretching it beyond credulity). What does it matter, anyway? It's not like he would use the recorded conversation as it is in the movie. And if he did, the entire point Isolder and FOG3 are trying to make is moot.

[NecronLord]

Here's a point, as well. How would the jedi have access to that recorder? Are we seriously suggesting that Palpatine, villainous sith lord, doesn't have a password on his computer?

Why would recordings of secret meetings of the chancellor be swiftly available to just anyone who happened to have physical access to the terminal?

[The Grim Squeaker]

For crying out loud. Look, I'm all for the notion that Palpatine's deception exposed would be pretty cool (indeed, I'm writing for a fanfic on that premise right now) but people seriously claiming that jedi bodies with slash marks are inexplicable are not thinking the idea through properly.

To explain it, all Palpatine has to say is "Master Fisto had an attack of concience, or perhaps only went with the assassins in order to undermine them. He nobly bought me the time to escape with his life! He was a true soldier of the Republic! These vile traitors murdered one of their own!"

Not even that, give the Red Guards augmented Vibroblades or lightsabers (Which, EU wise they do have /Non Canon) which would leave similiar wounds, and/or blast the bodies to blackened shreds with blaster fire, then identify via DNA.
Simpler, and logical. (Matches the Clonetrooper saving explanation).