Muslim Barack Obama fans told to hide from television camera

[General Zod]

How will this cost Obama muslim votes? After what Shrub and the Republicans have done to Iraq, how many American muslims are likely to vote Republican?

It probably won't, except insomuch as his staffers turning them away isn't good for PR in the Muslim community. Which is why it was a footnote in my point at best.

[pieshead]

I see this in a different light. Maybe this was a calculated move. There are a lot of low information voters (euphemism for stupid) out there that are on the fence about the whole Muslim thing. Its a win win for Obama.

1) Smart voters.

We understand why he did it, if he didn't the republicans would be starting up the motors on a fleet of swiftboats.

2) Dumb voters. Opps sorry, low information.

Cool Obama wants to make this country better but not include the Muslims that were all scared of, I'll vote for him. Or something along those lines.

This move was made because fear mongering is the biggest weapon the republicans have in this election. This story will go away after 1 or 2 news cycles but if they did sit behind him it would mushroom into at least two months of smearing and a lot of lost votes. I even think the volunteer was instructed from up the chain of command. Since its a volunteer there’s a convenient way to take the heat of of Obama. Obama probably wants unity but any smart politician would have done the same thing. It's sad that it has to be that way, but it is.

You can look at it from the other side too. What if a couple old unhealthy people with walkers and oxygen tanks who looked really old wanted to sit behind Mcain. I bet a volunteer would move them to "more comfortable" seating cause the Dems are pushing the age thing.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Who gives a shit whether I know any personally? But just for clarification, this incident in and of itself isn't going to necessarily cost any votes, with the notable exception of the Muslim community.

So we're agreed that it won't cost him any votes?

I agree with Sanchez that any Muslim voters who vote at all are most likely to vote for Obama, even now.

BUT it gives the Republitard slander machine more ammunition to work with specifically because it contradicts his campaign's message of unity.

I doubt it gives them anywhere near as much ammunition as a nice clear photo of Obama mit Muslims would. Keep in mind that the right is so desperate to slander Obama as a terrorist Muslim that they can call a fist-jab a secret terrorist hand gesture.

As for unity, is that really one of Obama's key platforms? Really? I thought he was about issues. Every Democrat who runs is consibered the "unifying" candidate just because the Democratic party seems to work as a bunch of disparate interests who unite (sort of) behind the best candidate available to them. During the primary, it was important for Obama to show that he could draw more of the Democratic base to him, to unify the party and galvanize them to vote. Now that the primary is over, unity is not a major issue because McCain is in no way able to argue that he is a unifier. He's the rich, white or bigoted man's candidate, and not a unifier unless it's unifying religion and voting against the common interest. It's a non-issue against McCain.

As it stands they're looking for any and all contradictions they can spin the fuck out of.

This is why it's a win-win for Obama--he never contradicted his campaign's spirit of unity. His volunteers did. Obama got to tell them off and look like the good guy. There's no contradiction for them to spin because Obama did not do anything wrong himself. That's why this was a superior move by his volunteers on his behalf. It prevents the right wing from getting any Obama=terrorrist footage while denying them the ability to criticize Obama for kicking anyone out.

[General Zod]

I doubt it gives them anywhere near as much ammunition as a nice clear photo of Obama mit Muslims would. Keep in mind that the right is so desperate to slander Obama as a terrorist Muslim that they can call a fist-jab a secret terrorist hand gesture.

They don't need a photo. Hell, they don't even need credible facts. They just need an opportunity for slander.

As for unity, is that really one of Obama's key platforms? Really? I thought he was about issues. Every Democrat who runs is consibered the "unifying" candidate just because the Democratic party seems to work as a bunch of disparate interests who unite (sort of) behind the best candidate available to them. During the primary, it was important for Obama to show that he could draw more of the Democratic base to him, to unify the party and galvanize them to vote. Now that the primary is over, unity is not a major issue because McCain is in no way able to argue that he is a unifier. He's the rich, white or bigoted man's candidate, and not a unifier unless it's unifying religion and voting against the common interest. It's a non-issue against McCain.

The issues are important, but if you've ever bothered actually reading any of his press releases, there's a big emphasis on unifying people. Hell, his own fucking campaign manager implies as much in the OP!

This is why it's a win-win for Obama--he never contradicted his campaign's spirit of unity. His volunteers did. Obama got to tell them off and look like the good guy. There's no contradiction for them to spin because Obama did not do anything wrong himself. That's why this was a superior move by his volunteers on his behalf. It prevents the right wing from getting any Obama=terrorrist footage while denying them the ability to criticize Obama for kicking anyone out.

Are you intentionally being stupid now? Or did you completely ignore the Reverend Wright scandal, where Obama never did anything wrong himself?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

The argument defending these actions basically boils down to "it may have hurt Obama's election chances, and people are already bigots - he didn't cause that, he's just playing the game".

For an analogous example, look here. You're solving the wrong problem. Playing to people's bigotry to get elected is bigotry in itself, and, whether or not it hurt his chances in the election, it's completely unjustified.

Again, we are not arguing about the morality of this situation, just the political expediency of it. Yes, it is participating in a bigoted system, but that's the system this election has to happen in.

I personally hate the bigotry I see every day. I hate that this country treats millions of its citizens as second-class citizens or as enemies, and the majority of its citizens as disposable serfs. But the situation won't change if McCain wins. We'll have to vote for the lesser of two evils to change things for the better--it would be irresponsible not to. Obama's camp my be playing a bigoted system, but McCain's camp will start a new war and cause thousands more people to die in Iraq and Iran than should while destroying the freedoms we cherish. It would be nice if Obama could run and win without any of his principles being bent or damaged. It would be great if his campaign could put him in the white house without making any controversial moves or getting his hands dirty. It would be great, but it won't happen that way. The system is just too stacked, too fucked up. And frankly, allowing McCain to take the White House without voting for the only other viable candidate is the same as being a good man who stands by and lets evil things happen.

I guess if there's a point to my rant, it's that I'd rather Obama's camp pull a few dirty tricks and win than sacrifice the next 4 years for high minded ideals. And yes, it is a damn horrible shame that two Muslim women had to be affected by bigotry, but blame the country for reducing public discourse to this level and not Obama for having aids who know what plays to the mindless middle.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Are you intentionally being stupid now? Or did you completely ignore the Reverend Wright scandal, where Obama never did anything wrong himself?

Didn't he handle that scandal by disowning and criticizing Wright? Kind of like how he criticized the aid? Besides, this has much less playability on the news than a simple photo that requires no commentary? The Hannities of the world would have to explain the contradiction to their viewers, many of whom are bigoted against Muslims anyway and won't blame Obama, whereas the Wright scandal exploded because there was video footage available to run on a constant loop with no explanation.

[General Zod]

Didn't he handle that scandal by disowning and criticizing Wright? Kind of like how he criticized the aid? Besides, this has much less playability on the news than a simple photo that requires no commentary? The Hannities of the world would have to explain the contradiction to their viewers, many of whom are bigoted against Muslims anyway and won't blame Obama, whereas the Wright scandal exploded because there was video footage available to run on a constant loop with no explanation.

He handled it, but that's not my point. Which you seem to constantly keep ignoring.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

What is your point?

I thought you were arguing that this move is going to hurt Obama's campaign more than allowing the Muslims with headscarves to sit behind Obama would have. But tehn you agreed that it will probably cost him no votes. So now I don't know what you're arguing.


BTW, you just said that the right doesn't need a photo or even credible facts to slander Obama, which is true. But it also means that it doesn't matter what Obama does because those particular slander artists will just make crap up anyway. All in all, it's probably better that they don't also have a new photo to back up their bullshit.


I really think that generating a "somewhat contradictory by association" slam out of this situation will be far less fruitful for the right and affect fewer middle voters. Is there any reason to believe that a newer scandal that is harder to explain and actually contradicts the established "Obama is a Muslim" meme will be more effective than the Pavlovian repetition that we've been exposed to for months?

[General Zod]

What is your point?

I thought you were arguing that this move is going to hurt Obama's campaign more than allowing the Muslims with headscarves to sit behind Obama would have. But tehn you agreed that it will probably cost him no votes. So now I don't know what you're arguing.

My whole fucking point in the last post was that they didn't need any evidence! Is it that fucking difficult to put 2 & 2 together and follow what I'm talking about instead of having a need to go off on some completely asinine tangent that's only barely relevant to what I'm saying?

BTW, you just said that the right doesn't need a photo or even credible facts to slander Obama, which is true. But it also means that it doesn't matter what Obama does because those particular slander artists will just make crap up anyway. All in all, it's probably better that they don't also have a new photo to back up their bullshit.

Utter horseshit. If someone will make shit up about you anyway, walking on eggshells will not make the problem go away.

[Big Phil]

What is your point?

I thought you were arguing that this move is going to hurt Obama's campaign more than allowing the Muslims with headscarves to sit behind Obama would have. But tehn you agreed that it will probably cost him no votes. So now I don't know what you're arguing.

My whole fucking point in the last post was that they didn't need any evidence! Is it that fucking difficult to put 2 & 2 together and follow what I'm talking about instead of having a need to go off on some completely asinine tangent that's only barely relevant to what I'm saying?

So he's damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't, is that what you're saying? So why four pages of (paraphrased) "Obama should have let the Muslim women stand behind him" if it really doesn't matter?

[Ziggy Stardust]

My whole fucking point in the last post was that they didn't need any evidence! Is it that fucking difficult to put 2 & 2 together and follow what I'm talking about instead of having a need to go off on some completely asinine tangent that's only barely relevant to what I'm saying?

How is it a fucking tangent? He was responding to the argument you've been going on about for four pages, moron.

On page 2 you said, "I explained what my fucking point was multiple times throughout the whole goddamned thread. You clearly lack the ability to read, but I'll repeat it anyway. By making a campaign based on unity, doing things that run against that damage the campaign's image and credibility."

And now, suddenly, you've changed your argument to "They don't need a photo. Hell, they don't even need credible facts. They just need an opportunity for slander." You completely changed the point of your argument, and then called everyone else stupid for not following that change. Fuck off.

[Rye]

I can understand why they did it, I don't know if I would've done it (probably not, I would've passed the buck), but yeah, I can totally grasp why. I imagine if there'd been a man sat behind him wearing a kilt they could've probably moved him too, in case any of the dumbfuck social conservatives interpreted it as a whole-hearted embrace of the gay agenda, and I would understand that.

[General Zod]

>snip<

So you don't actually have a rebuttal then? How about you take your whining and shove it up your ass. I can't help but change the fucking point when some people are constantly changing the focus of their questions and not actually bothering to address what I'm saying.

So he's damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't, is that what you're saying? So why four pages of (paraphrased) "Obama should have let the Muslim women stand behind him" if it really doesn't matter?

If you'd bothered actually reading my paragraph right fucking below that instead of shoving words in my mouth you'd damn well know that's not my point.

[The Original Nex]

Politico

Obama apologizes to Muslim women; apology accepted

Sen. Barack Obama today called the two Muslim women who were barred from sitting behind him at his Detroit rally to apologize, one of the women and two other sources said.

"Sen. Obama called himself and he apologized to each of us," one of the women, lawyer Hebba Aref, told me just now.

Aref, who had suggested that an appropriate fix might be seating her behind Obama at some future event, said she'd also discussed that possibility with his staff.

Aref and Shimaa Abdelfadeel had been barred from sitting behind Obama on Monday by volunteers concerned that they would appear on camera with him while wearing headscarves.

UPDATE: Aref and Abdelfadeel email over a statement:



At the rally for Senator Obama in Detroit on Monday, June 16, two volunteers denied us seating behind the stage the Senator would soon take. The volunteers informed us that we were not allowed to sit in that area due to the hijab, the headscarf that each of us was wearing.

This incident was unfortunate and extremely disappointing. Senator Obama has called us each to personally convey his deepest apologies and acknowledge that this was inexcusable. We both immensely appreciate the Senator's phone call and his commitment to remedy this issue. We commend him for displaying qualities befitting an effective President. We acknowledge that this injustice has been taken seriously and that Senator Obama does not tolerate discrimination against Arabs, Muslims or any community. We are assured that he and his staff are committed to upholding the principles of justice for all peoples and bringing about change we can believe in. The infringement on our rights occurred and has been addressed; now we are ready to move forward. We will continue to support Senator Obama in his campaign and wish him the best as the race continues.

UPDATE: Obama puts out a statement through his Senate office:



I reached out to Ms. Aref and Ms. Abdelfadeel this afternoon. I spoke with Ms. Abdelfadeel, and expressed my deepest apologies for the incident that occurred with volunteers at the event in Detroit. The actions of these volunteers were unacceptable and in no way reflect any policy of my campaign. I take deepest offense to and will continue to fight against discrimination against people of any religious group or background. Our campaign is about bringing people together, and I'm grateful that Ms. Abdelfadeel accepted our apology and I hope Ms. Aref and any who were offended accept my apology as well.

[Kanastrous]

Aref, who had suggested that an appropriate fix might be seating her behind Obama at some future event, said she'd also discussed that possibility with his staff.

So it's ultimately about a couple individuals' egos, and about getting to sit where they want to sit.

Fuck them.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

So an unpaid staffer, in contradiction to what the Obama campaign is attempting to do, made someone move because they were wearing something that is only associated with Islam.

...and people here are defending the action and saying it's the right thing to do? I'm sorry, but you're all a bunch of dumbfucks.

Here's a question: How did that whole 'appease the opposition' thing work for Kerry?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Aref, who had suggested that an appropriate fix might be seating her behind Obama at some future event, said she'd also discussed that possibility with his staff.

So it's ultimately about a couple individuals' egos, and about getting to sit where they want to sit.

Fuck them.

No how about fuck you.

Jesus, you people are so scatterbrained i can barely grasp it. Between you, Sanchez and Bob the argument has shifted from "It was a good idea" to "It wasnt right but it was smart" to "Who cares they'll vote for him anyway they have no choice!"

Christ.

Are you all fucking retarded? Look at the flak Obama is taking for this. LOOK at it! This is actually WORSE than the "alternative", which was to just let the people sit where they want. Not to mention it has brought all the Secret Muslim stuff back into the spotlight. And lets not even venture into the territory of suggesting that--shock! horror!--the Muslims may ACTUALLY be offended by this, as they fucking should be, and not vote for him (because, and this is but a theory, they may not be mindless idiots who take any insult without rertaliation).

Yeah this was real smart.

No, fuck you.

Mantrain you in fact.

[Gaidin]

Are you all fucking retarded? Look at the flak Obama is taking for this. LOOK at it! This is actually WORSE than the "alternative", which was to just let the people sit where they want. Not to mention it has brought all the Secret Muslim stuff back into the spotlight. And lets not even venture into the territory of suggesting that--shock! horror!--the Muslims may ACTUALLY be offended by this, as they fucking should be, and not vote for him (because, and this is but a theory, they may not be mindless idiots who take any insult without rertaliation).

Yeah this was real smart.

No, fuck you.

Mantrain you in fact.

Sounds like you're jumping the gun on this one. It hasn't even been out for three days yet. I'll call it flak when he's getting slammed two weeks later for it.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

As an extra note:

For those fuckwits who say that this was a brilliant idea because people who *gasp* see him with people who look vaguely muslim will suddenly assume he's muslim and not vote for him:

1) You mind showing us this supposed critical group of retarded swing-voters that is basing their vote entirely on whether or not headscarves are visible in Obama's audience are?

2) You mind showing us that, if they aren't visible, said retarded swing-voters *would* vote for Obama?

3) You mind showing us that if this group even exists, it doesn't belong in the same 22% Republican base that would vote McCain even if he ate a live baby on stage?

Let's take a look at Obama's history so far: He came out of pretty much nowhere, beat the everloving shit out of Hillary, who not only originally had the Democratic establishment in her hands, who not only screamed, clawed, and sucker-punched her way into failure, but also had a good number of Republicans coming over and voting for her to try and reduce Obama's chances.

What does this tell us? Two things:

1) Obama's strategy of "Hey, I'm going to treat the voters like actual people, instead of resources that can be bought with a few sound-bytes" is actually working.

2) The republicans are fucking terrified of this.

I said I'd hold a glimmer of hope in the US populace if Obama got the nomination, and I'm holding to that statement. Enough people are smart enough that he can run on this and win, and playing Kerry's game of 'Let's bend over for the Republicans!' will get him just as far as it got Kerry.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Sounds like you're jumping the gun on this one. It hasn't even been out for three days yet. I'll call it flak when he's getting slammed two weeks later for it.

Okay then, here's a question: If nothing happened, they weren't moved, would there have been *any* controversy over the fact that someone in the audience behind Obama had a headscarf?

[Gaidin]

Okay then, here's a question: If nothing happened, they weren't moved, would there have been *any* controversy over the fact that someone in the audience behind Obama had a headscarf?

I'm not one for speculating the moves of people like O'Reilly and Hannity. If there's anybody's heads I'd rather not try to get into, it's them.

Given that, I don't have a stance as to whether or not it was even politically expedient even as an attempt to dodge possible contrived controversy. I do not think it was right, whether or not it was expedient.

My big point is that after only two days(if that), it's a bit too early to tell whether the bitching is the political flavor of the day or whether it's going to be some legit flak he's going to be dodging for a while.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Sounds like you're jumping the gun on this one. It hasn't even been out for three days yet. I'll call it flak when he's getting slammed two weeks later for it.

Okay then, here's a question: If nothing happened, they weren't moved, would there have been *any* controversy over the fact that someone in the audience behind Obama had a headscarf?

Exactly.

If nothing had been done AT ALL, then there would not even be a discussion whatsoever. Indeed, some of that Secret Muslim stuff had seemed to, IMO, died down a bit...till this shit anyay. Now EVERYONE is discussing it, bringing it back up, and more importantly the Muslims may actually be offended (as they FUCKING should be) by this crap and not mindlessly vote for the Dems, as some people seem to think they're stupid enough to do.

[Gaidin]

Exactly.

If nothing had been done AT ALL, then there would not even be a discussion whatsoever. Indeed, some of that Secret Muslim stuff had seemed to, IMO, died down a bit...till this shit anyay. Now EVERYONE is discussing it, bringing it back up, and more importantly the Muslims may actually be offended (as they FUCKING should be) by this crap and not mindlessly vote for the Dems, as some people seem to think they're stupid enough to do.

Oh please. You say this like it's an overly special situation. That's how either-or choices work, and political campaigns are FULL of them. Some work out well for the candidate, and some don't. I've yet to see a candidate run for office without at least one gaffe that could've been avoided by choosing option A instead of option B.