Poland's government tones down Volyn massacre

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K. A. Pital
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Poland's government tones down Volyn massacre

Post by K. A. Pital »

...in the name of not rocking the boat with Ukrainians who are rehabilitating the perpetrators of that massacre as "national heroes".

http://news.mail.ru/politics/1837009/
Lech Kazynski has refused to be a patron over a conference dedicated to the 65-year anniversary of the Volyn Massacre, also changing the terms and the program of the conference, due to fears of worsening Polish-Ukrainian relations.

According to "Gazeta Wyborcza", the conference initially was commemorating the Polish massacre victims. The initial version of the program, done by the Polish National Memory Institute, spoke of the "genocide of poles by Ukrainian nationalists", and no Ukrainians were invited.

In the changed version of the program the word "genocide" was removed, instead "annihilation" was used. Ukrainian participants were aso invited. The administration of the president decided that official patronage over this conference will harm the relations between Poland and Ukraine, and the conference was also moved from 20 June to 10 July
Funny how the Ukrainians claim that Operation Vistula carried out by Poland against the Ukrainian nationalists after the war, and which was a deportation, somehow excuses a mass murder by Hitler's collaborationists in the OUN-UPA.
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Post by PeZook »

Jesus, national pride is a horrible thing.

The Ukrainians still have a huge chip on their shoulder, going back as far the Cossack Uprisings in the XVIIth century. They like to milk all the massacres and injustice for all the political gain they can get.

And, of course, there's plenty of nationalistic Polish dickheads who do the same, only in reverse, painting all Ukrainians as fundamentally anti-polish potential murderers.

I wonder why, exactly, should things like these even matter for international relations? Wow, so it's not genocide now, just mass murder. Yeah, that will surely make the nationalistic fuckheads not angry at Poles :D
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Post by K. A. Pital »

The Ukrainians still have a huge chip on their shoulder, going back as far the Cossack Uprisings in the XVIIth century.
Now they even claim that Emelian Pugachev was the "fighter for Ukrainian indepence" whose rebellion aimed at "destroying the Russian Empire".

It's strange sometimes when you see people clinging to any possibly useable fact to construct some sort of nationalist ideology...
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Post by PeZook »

Stas Bush wrote: Now they even claim that Emelian Pugachev was the "fighter for Ukrainian indepence" whose rebellion aimed at "destroying the Russian Empire".

It's strange sometimes when you see people clinging to any possibly useable fact to construct some sort of nationalist ideology...
The complicated nature of Ukrainian history is often lost on these people ; For example, when it comes to Chmielnicki's rebellion, they always carefully omit that one of the Cossack's grievances had to do with too little war. The Cossacks felt that Poland did not fight enough enemies, and thus didn't need the Cossack gentry, which led to less spoils and a smaller standing army. Of course, this isn't good for nationalistic pride, because it paints an image of a violent, war-loving people rather than the helpless, peaceful and unjustly opressed nation.

There were legitimate grievances too, of course - the issues back then were mind-bogglingly complicated and reducing them to a black-and-white question of "us vs. them" is like designing a bridge using Lego bricks.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Nationalist ideologues every where seem to love to rewrite history. Take Japan for example. Official accounts still whitewash the Nanking massacre, and even some of their people are considered "lesser Japanese" like the Okinawans.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

...some of their people are considered "lesser Japanese" like the Okinawans.
"Lesser Japanese"? I didn't know such crap is still possible in Japan. Anything to read about the modern racial problems in Japan?
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stas Bush wrote:
...some of their people are considered "lesser Japanese" like the Okinawans.
"Lesser Japanese"? I didn't know such crap is still possible in Japan. Anything to read about the modern racial problems in Japan?
I'm not too familiar with the issue, but Japanese and Koreans are frightfully nationalistic especially with regard to race. Ethnic Koreans working in Japan (and with citizenship) are often regarded as second class citizens. With respect to Okinawa, there's a fair bit of white washing of crimes perpetrated against the Okinawans during World War II.

Take a look: NYTimes article
April 1, 2007
Japan’s Textbooks Reflect Revised History
By NORIMITSU ONISHI

TOKYO, March 31 — In another sign that Japan is pressing ahead in revising its history of World War II, new high school textbooks will no longer acknowledge that the Imperial Army was responsible for a major atrocity in Okinawa, the government announced late Friday.

The Ministry of Education ordered publishers to delete passages stating that the Imperial Army ordered civilians to commit mass suicide during the Battle of Okinawa, as the island was about to fall to American troops in the final months of the war.

The decision was announced as part of the ministry’s annual screening of textbooks used in all public schools. The ministry also ordered changes to other delicate issues to dovetail with government assertions, though the screening is supposed to be free of political interference.

“I believe the screening system has been followed appropriately,” said Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who has long campaigned to soften the treatment in textbooks of Japan’s wartime conduct.

The decision on the Battle of Okinawa, which came as a surprise because the ministry had never objected to the description in the past, followed recent denials by Mr. Abe that the military had coerced women into sexual slavery during the war.

The results of the annual textbook screening are closely watched in China, South Korea and other Asian countries. So the fresh denial of the military’s responsibility in the Battle of Okinawa and in sexual slavery — long accepted as historical facts — is likely to deepen suspicions in Asia that Tokyo is trying to whitewash its militarist past even as it tries to raise the profile of its current forces.

Shortly after assuming office last fall, Mr. Abe transformed the Defense Agency into a full ministry. He has said that his most important goal is to revise the American-imposed, pacifist Constitution that forbids Japan from having a full-fledged military with offensive abilities.

Some 200,000 Americans and Japanese died during the Battle of Okinawa, one of the most brutal clashes of the war. It was the only battle on Japanese soil involving civilians, but Okinawa was not just any part of Japan.

It was only in the late 19th century that Japan officially annexed Okinawa, a kingdom that, to this day, has retained some of its own culture. During World War II, when many Okinawans still spoke a different dialect, Japanese troops treated the locals brutally. In its history of the war, the Okinawa Prefectural Peace Memorial Museum presents Okinawa as being caught in the fighting between America and Japan — a starkly different view from the Yasukuni Shrine war museum, which presents Japan as a liberator of Asia from Western powers.

During the 1945 battle, during which one quarter of the civilian population was killed, the Japanese Army showed indifference to Okinawa’s defense and safety. Japanese soldiers used civilians as shields against the Americans, and persuaded locals that victorious American soldiers would go on a rampage of killing and raping. With the impending victory of American troops, civilians committed mass suicide, urged on by fanatical Japanese soldiers.

“There were some people who were forced to commit suicide by the Japanese Army,” one old textbook explained. But in the revision ordered by the ministry, it now reads, “There were some people who were driven to mass suicide.”

Other changes are similar — the change to a passive verb, the disappearance of a subject — and combine to erase the responsibility of the Japanese military. In explaining its policy change, the ministry said that it “is not clear that the Japanese Army coerced or ordered the mass suicides.”

As with Mr. Abe’s denial regarding sexual slavery, the ministry’s new position appeared to discount overwhelming evidence of coercion, particularly the testimony of victims and survivors themselves.

“There are many Okinawans who have testified that the Japanese Army directed them to commit suicide,” Ryukyu Shimpo, one of the two major Okinawan newspapers, said in an angry editorial. “There are also people who have testified that they were handed grenades by Japanese soldiers” to blow themselves up.

The editorial described the change as a politically influenced decision that “went along with the government view.”

Mr. Abe, after helping to found the Group of Young Parliamentarians Concerned About Japan’s Future and History Education in 1997, long led a campaign to reject what nationalists call a masochistic view of history that has robbed postwar Japanese of their pride.

Yasuhiro Nakasone, a former prime minister who is a staunch ally of Mr. Abe, recently denied what he wrote in 1978. In a memoir about his Imperial Navy experiences in Indonesia, titled “Commander of 3,000 Men at Age 23,” he wrote that some of his men “started attacking local women or became addicted to gambling.

“For them, I went to great pains, and had a comfort station built,” Mr. Nakasone wrote, using the euphemism for a military brothel.

But in a meeting with foreign journalists a week ago, Mr. Nakasone, now 88, issued a flat denial. He said he had actually set up a “recreation center,” where his men played Japanese board games like go and shogi.

In a meeting on Saturday with Foreign Minister Taro Aso of Japan, South Korea’s foreign minister, Song Min-soon, criticized Mr. Abe’s recent comments on sexual slaves.

“The problems over perceptions of history are making it difficult to move South Korean-Japanese relations forward,” Mr. Song said.

Mr. Aso said Japan stuck by a 1993 statement acknowledging responsibility for past sexual slavery, but said nothing about Mr. Abe’s denial that the military had coerced women, many of them Korean, into sexual slavery.
Yeah, history revisionism.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Stas Bush wrote:
...some of their people are considered "lesser Japanese" like the Okinawans.
"Lesser Japanese"? I didn't know such crap is still possible in Japan. Anything to read about the modern racial problems in Japan?
Racism is still highly prevalent in Japan's elder populations much like it's still highly prevalent in the older southern population of the American South. There are good and true Japanese people, and then there is everyone else.

Not as bad as China(Middle-fucking Kindom Were's de bestest people in histotry evar! It's only the evil Imperalist West, and the Betrayus East, and the loser North that's keeping us down)
As far as I know they only don't bitch about Australia, When I spent some time in Hong Kong post reclamation and met some people from the capital it was funny how they had a rant about every single damn major nation on the planet EXCEPT Australia.

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Post by montypython »

Mr Bean wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:
...some of their people are considered "lesser Japanese" like the Okinawans.
"Lesser Japanese"? I didn't know such crap is still possible in Japan. Anything to read about the modern racial problems in Japan?
Racism is still highly prevalent in Japan's elder populations much like it's still highly prevalent in the older southern population of the American South. There are good and true Japanese people, and then there is everyone else.

Not as bad as China(Middle-fucking Kindom Were's de bestest people in histotry evar! It's only the evil Imperalist West, and the Betrayus East, and the loser North that's keeping us down)
As far as I know they only don't bitch about Australia, When I spent some time in Hong Kong post reclamation and met some people from the capital it was funny how they had a rant about every single damn major nation on the planet EXCEPT Australia.
I've never gotten that impression from any that I've met, thosewho act with a chip on their shoulder tend to get heavily mocked. In general Chinese aren't racists (much due to social and ethnic composition), Koreans and Japanese are worse regarding that.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Yeah, I didn't notice much racism in either Beijing or Hong Kong. Most of the Chinese seem to be pretty nationalistic and proud of their country, but hardly racist towards others... well, maybe with the exception of Japanese. There's really a lot of hate towards the Japanese in China.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Stas Bush wrote: "Lesser Japanese"? I didn't know such crap is still possible in Japan. Anything to read about the modern racial problems in Japan?
To the hardcore Japanese nationalist they aren’t Japanese at all. This comes about because the islands were ruled locally as the Ryukyu Kingdom all the way until 1879, though they fell under Japanese sphere of influence from 1609 onward, while still paying tribute to both Japan and China. The island had (and still have but its dieing out) there own spoken language, considered a Japanese dialect or a totally independent language depending on who you ask, and used the Chinese written language. Culture, folktales ect.. of the population are uniquely Ruykyuan. Since the Japanese pride being Japanese to the core for thousands of years, those differences are often seen as overruling 'mere' facts of geography and politics.

In WW2 the islands population was mainly used for hard labor when conscripted into the military by deliberate policy, and many ended up being worked to death with nearly the same brutality inflicted on Koreans, though Korean in turn got slightly better treated then say Chinese, Indonesians or western POWs used as forced labor.

As for links… I don’t like wikpedia but I’m lazy, and the article they’ve thrown together on the issue seems good enough as an overview, with some decent links as citations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan
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