Ravencrow wrote:These points were greatly emphasized in church and church groups that I was with. They were based on John 3:16 as well as the verse where Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one goes to the Father except through me." (John 14:1-6)
As with many subjects the bible contradicts itself on numerous occasions about what you have to do to be saved, as such self described Christians can point to verses such as:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
To claim with ample scriptural backing that nice non-believers don't burn in hell.
In the UK where Christianity is far from socially dominant, most Christians don't seem to like the idea that a very large proportion of their relations, friends and colleagues who aren't believers are going to hell (aside of course from the clear majority of humanity which isn't Christian) and so in my experience tend to favour the verses which say people will be judged by their works.
Here's a thought. What if you define a Christian as any person whose beliefs are 'descended' from the early Christian church of the 200s or 300s? I'm not really sure what it means to be 'descended', but in this case, Islam wouldn't count while Protestants would. What do y'all think?
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
Surlethe wrote:Here's a thought. What if you define a Christian as any person whose beliefs are 'descended' from the early Christian church of the 200s or 300s? I'm not really sure what it means to be 'descended', but in this case, Islam wouldn't count while Protestants would. What do y'all think?
Why is it so important to exclude Islam? All three of the Abrahamic religions have quite a bit of overlap in terms of their beliefs; it seems like we're trying to exclude Islam just for the sake of excluding Islam.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Maybe the best thing to do would be to simply define "Christian" as anyone who considers Jesus to be the primary figure in his/her religion, or at least considers him to be second only to God.
"Stop! No one can survive these deadly rays!"
"These deadly rays will be your death!"
- Thor and Akton, Starcrash
"Before man reaches the moon your mail will be delivered within hours from New York to California, to England, to India or to Australia by guided missiles.... We stand on the threshold of rocket mail."
- Arthur Summerfield, US Postmaster General 1953 - 1961
Drooling Iguana wrote:Maybe the best thing to do would be to simply define "Christian" as anyone who considers Jesus to be the primary figure in his/her religion, or at least considers him to be second only to God.
Which was basically my page one
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Surlethe wrote:Here's a thought. What if you define a Christian as any person whose beliefs are 'descended' from the early Christian church of the 200s or 300s? I'm not really sure what it means to be 'descended', but in this case, Islam wouldn't count while Protestants would. What do y'all think?
Why is it so important to exclude Islam? All three of the Abrahamic religions have quite a bit of overlap in terms of their beliefs; it seems like we're trying to exclude Islam just for the sake of excluding Islam.
Well, if we're trying to find a definition that fits the majority colloquial usage, exclusion of Islam is a good litmus test because most people don't refer to Muslims as Christians. All three Abrahamic religions do overlap quite a bit; the key, then, is to find definitions nuanced enough to distinguish between them.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
Surlethe wrote:Here's a thought. What if you define a Christian as any person whose beliefs are 'descended' from the early Christian church of the 200s or 300s? I'm not really sure what it means to be 'descended', but in this case, Islam wouldn't count while Protestants would. What do y'all think?
Why is it so important to exclude Islam? All three of the Abrahamic religions have quite a bit of overlap in terms of their beliefs; it seems like we're trying to exclude Islam just for the sake of excluding Islam.
Well, if we're trying to find a definition that fits the majority colloquial usage, exclusion of Islam is a good litmus test because most people don't refer to Muslims as Christians. All three Abrahamic religions do overlap quite a bit; the key, then, is to find definitions nuanced enough to distinguish between them.
Or to be more honest and hyphenate them, the way we hyphenate "Judeo-Christian" because the Christian's beliefs partially overlap with Jewish beliefs. So a Muslim would be a Judeo-Christian-Islamic person, while a Christian would be a Judeo-Christian.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Surlethe wrote:Well, if we're trying to find a definition that fits the majority colloquial usage, exclusion of Islam is a good litmus test because most people don't refer to Muslims as Christians. All three Abrahamic religions do overlap quite a bit; the key, then, is to find definitions nuanced enough to distinguish between them.
Or to be more honest and hyphenate them, the way we hyphenate "Judeo-Christian" because the Christian's beliefs partially overlap with Jewish beliefs. So a Muslim would be a Judeo-Christian-Islamic person, while a Christian would be a Judeo-Christian.
That's a good idea; I obviously hadn't considered that. But this would require changing the colloquial use of "Christian" to "Judeo-Christian"; that seems to kind of defeat the whole point of finding a suitable definition for "Christian".
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
Surlethe wrote:Well, if we're trying to find a definition that fits the majority colloquial usage, exclusion of Islam is a good litmus test because most people don't refer to Muslims as Christians. All three Abrahamic religions do overlap quite a bit; the key, then, is to find definitions nuanced enough to distinguish between them.
Or to be more honest and hyphenate them, the way we hyphenate "Judeo-Christian" because the Christian's beliefs partially overlap with Jewish beliefs. So a Muslim would be a Judeo-Christian-Islamic person, while a Christian would be a Judeo-Christian.
That's a good idea; I obviously hadn't considered that. But this would require changing the colloquial use of "Christian" to "Judeo-Christian"; that seems to kind of defeat the whole point of finding a suitable definition for "Christian".
Not exactly. The "Christian" colloquial term is logically just a short-form for "Judeo-Christian", picking out the most exclusive part of the designation. The same way "sapiens" is the most important part of "homo sapiens". Really, when you have a set of overlapping beliefs structured on top of one another, I don't see any other logical way to do it.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Surlethe wrote:That's a good idea; I obviously hadn't considered that. But this would require changing the colloquial use of "Christian" to "Judeo-Christian"; that seems to kind of defeat the whole point of finding a suitable definition for "Christian".
Not exactly. The "Christian" colloquial term is logically just a short-form for "Judeo-Christian", picking out the most exclusive part of the designation. The same way "sapiens" is the most important part of "homo sapiens". Really, when you have a set of overlapping beliefs structured on top of one another, I don't see any other logical way to do it.
This all seems most similar to linguistic evolution, which makes classification (which is what we're really discussing) much more difficult than with biological evolution. (Judeo-)Christianity, for example, is descended primarily from Judaism, but it also incorporates elements of the various mystery cults prevalent in the Roman Empire at the time, as well as regional variations it picked up as it spread throughout the world. So you can't really draw a line straight back from Christianity to Judaism, can you?
Interestingly, now that I think about it, I have seen books in my church's library which identify Islam as a dangerous Christian heresy. I had always understood it to be Mohammed's one-time take on Judaism and Christianity, and not necessarily 'descended' from the early Church, but that depends on the circumstances in which it arose.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
So, what we're getting at is something like this, ya?
Abrahamic / Judeo-Christian (superset of Jew, Christian, Muslim)
Jew (includes mainstream Jew, heretical Jew, draws religion from Jewish holy writ)
Mainstream Jew (self-defined, exclusivist)
Heretical Jew (defined by exclusion by Mainstream Judaism - includes Christian)
Christian (includes mainstream Christian, heretical Christian, believes in a Christ worthy of worship)
Mainstream Christian (self-defined, exclusivist - includes Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant)
Heretical Christian (defined by exclusion by Mainstream Christianity - includes Muslim)
Muslim (includes mainstream Muslim, heretical Muslim, believes that there is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet)
Mainstream Muslim (self-defined, exclusivist - includes Sunni, Shia)
Heretical Muslim (defined by exclusion by Mainstream Islam, includes Bahai)
Part of what I keep hitting against is the argument that Gnostics were not Christians.......I having trouble explaining to Trinity Christians that you can be Christian without believing in the Trinity
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Gnostics and I think the orthodox churches too.
Why are we getting so wound up about a watertight boundry.
There is no discrete dividing point between homo erectus and homo sapiens or even between homo and pan (chimpanzees).
Pehaps we should define on a % system?
Plekhanov wrote:As with many subjects the bible contradicts itself on numerous occasions about what you have to do to be saved, - snip - .
In the Christian areas of the UK I've known works are important but faith is neccesary - good works are like a shirt but faith is a pair of trousers.
Clearly I've been moving in more conservative circles then i realised. Some self described Christians really believe works alone is sufficent?
heh. got my insurance then.
madd0ct0r wrote:Some self described Christians really believe works alone is sufficent?
On "works" vs "faith", I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of self-described Christians disagree with Martin Luther's statement that you could be the most heinous rapist and murderer in the world and still get into Heaven as long as you accept Jesus Christ. There is a major disconnect between the dogma that various churches officially believe and the way that their members privately approach the concept of Heaven and one's behaviour in life.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
How many Christians do people think actually believe in the "Trinity" aspect which most modern Christianity versions share.
They mouth the words, sure, but how literally do they take it. I know that when I was "Christian" as a youth, I never took it real literally.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Kitsune wrote:How many Christians do people think actually believe in the "Trinity" aspect which most modern Christianity versions share.
They mouth the words, sure, but how literally do they take it. I know that when I was "Christian" as a youth, I never took it real literally.
Indeed. Also, what about people who claim to be Christian and have little to know knowledge of the bible?
I often have come to situations where when I was a JW (it feels really good to say that) people would say we weren't christians because we didn't believe in the trinity. However some friends of mine who'd parrot this couldn't cite the scriptures where the trinity is supported. In addition they would say witness' weren't christians for a number of reasons, none of which were biblical due to their lack of knowledge.
It's very easy now to tell this people who silly it is to believe in a god. Far easier than it was to prove that my posistion on the bible was in fact a christian one simply because they have no evidence and end up sticking their fingers in their ears.
I am the hammer, I am the right hand of my Lord. The instrument of His will and the gauntlet about His fist. The tip of His spear, the edge of His sword. I am His wrath just as he is my shield. I am the bane of His foes and the woe of the treacherous. I am the end.
-Ravus Ordo Militis
"Fear and ignorance claim the unwary and the incomplete. The wise man may flinch away from their embrace if he girds his soul with the armour of contempt."
RIPP_n_WIPE wrote:Indeed. Also, what about people who claim to be Christian and have little to know knowledge of the bible?
In my experience, that is most Christians. Honestly, how bad of a book is the Bible when there are so many millions of people whose self-identity is based upon their belief in this book, and who still can't bring themselves to read the thing?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
The Bible wrote:John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 3:16-18 Warwolves G2
The University of North AlabamaLions!
"Someone who believes Jesus Christ existed, and considers Jesus to be the primary 'human' figure in their religion."
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
jegs2 wrote:I use the following definition for a Christan:
The Bible wrote:John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
So are you saying that anyone who disagrees with this line is not a Christian, even though this line was not attributed to Jesus himself?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
madd0ct0r wrote:Some self described Christians really believe works alone is sufficent?
On "works" vs "faith", I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of self-described Christians disagree with Martin Luther's statement that you could be the most heinous rapist and murderer in the world and still get into Heaven as long as you accept Jesus Christ. There is a major disconnect between the dogma that various churches officially believe and the way that their members privately approach the concept of Heaven and one's behaviour in life.
Ironically, I've met quite a few who refuse to believe works are what you get judged on at the end of Revelations.. Despite that being what it says.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Surlethe wrote:Here's a thought. What if you define a Christian as any person whose beliefs are 'descended' from the early Christian church of the 200s or 300s? I'm not really sure what it means to be 'descended', but in this case, Islam wouldn't count while Protestants would. What do y'all think?
Why is it so important to exclude Islam? All three of the Abrahamic religions have quite a bit of overlap in terms of their beliefs; it seems like we're trying to exclude Islam just for the sake of excluding Islam.
Seriously. Islam is not a religion, but a branch of Christianity--I once wrote a rather lengthy analysis of the subject, which is sadly lost, but they mesh up neatly with at least one early Christian belief system called Adoptionism which is classified as a heresy...
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Seriously. Islam is not a religion, but a branch of Christianity--I once wrote a rather lengthy analysis of the subject, which is sadly lost, but they mesh up neatly with at least one early Christian belief system called Adoptionism which is classified as a heresy...
Are there extant Christian sects that deny the divinity of Christ?
One of the glaring differences that I perceive between Islam and Chistianity, is the Christian insistence that Jesus was divine, and the Islamic insistence that he wasn't.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Seriously. Islam is not a religion, but a branch of Christianity--I once wrote a rather lengthy analysis of the subject, which is sadly lost, but they mesh up neatly with at least one early Christian belief system called Adoptionism which is classified as a heresy...
Are there extant Christian sects that deny the divinity of Christ?
One of the glaring differences that I perceive between Islam and Chistianity, is the Christian insistence that Jesus was divine, and the Islamic insistence that he wasn't.
According to Islam, Jesus was "divine" in the sense that he was considered a divinely anointed messenger of God. But they didn't believe in the whole salvation thing.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
